stirling Posted yesterday at 01:55 AM An interesting discussion of the movie "A Dark Song" and its working of the Abramelin ritual, a book on the Abramelin ritual and the movie itself, and a number of well-known (in the magick world) people who have attempted or completed the ritual. https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep336-the-magick-of-abramelin-duncan-barford-3 - Wish there were more details about how the HGA appears to those who have been successful and finished, but I'll probably buy the book anyway. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted yesterday at 05:05 AM just from the trailer , this seems more like a movie about 'certain types' that either use magic for (or are not ready to use it and fall into this trap) manipulation and control of other people in the ritual to base ends . Its a big one that . I have had experience with it in that a close friend who was offered all sorts of things including being the new 'head' of the 'group ' ended up being required to do all sorts of weird , kinky , sadistic, etc 'stuff' ( which of course was purely for 'magical purposes' and ' tests ' ) and also personally in that keeping tabs on any such energy arising in myself * and also being appointed to keep an eye on other groups (in our organisation ) and report to HQ any evidence of same . * in such a position sometimes this arises in others that seem to have a 'need ' to experience this 'dominance' ..... but that was not the 'business' we were in ... there are other places they can go to for that . ( people used to say our group had orgies ... no we dont ! - dammit ! ) ( In that regard I didnt watch the vid beginning but came in at the discussion of the ritual itself .... I like the way the guy started off ; first this a ritual about 'getting rich' ... like I often say ... it has base ends and it and some associated practices and rituals are hodge podge 'old' mistranslated and even totally unsuitable sources ( like a fragmentary Greek exorcism being used to invoke the HGA ) . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted yesterday at 06:54 AM - in any case I suppose a follow up discussion could be on 01:37:16 - Questioning pragmatic dharma assumptions and the vogue of stream entry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted yesterday at 08:45 AM I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly. I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results. I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes. I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA). Interesting. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted yesterday at 09:16 AM (edited) William Bloom took months with the Abramelin process. He told me it was successful but not worth the effort https://www.amazon.com.au/Sacred-Magician-Ceremonial-Diary/dp/0906362180 Edited yesterday at 09:16 AM by Lairg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted yesterday at 01:38 PM 4 hours ago, Lairg said: William Bloom took months with the Abramelin process. He told me it was successful but not worth the effort https://www.amazon.com.au/Sacred-Magician-Ceremonial-Diary/dp/0906362180 How can it be both? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 21 hours ago 8 hours ago, Apech said: I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly. I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results. I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes. I think the requirement for some suffering is directly linked to just how obscured one is. Doing such a thing for revenge (tons of obscuration) or money (less so, but still) or what have you seems unlikely to pay dividends and at the very least be quite a difficult journey, as opposed to something like: I want to end my suffering", or "I want to understand the nature of reality". How difficult is ends up being isn't caused by some supernatural force, but by the problematic delusions of the caster. Just my opinion, of course. 8 hours ago, Apech said: I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA). Interesting. Having done the ngondro, I am inclined to agree. Struck me precisely the same way. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 17 hours ago 11 hours ago, Apech said: I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly. I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results. This is what seems to happen . Conversely I got great results and blabber about it all the time , yet find it hard to pin down the actual work or single ritual that did it for me . Its been broached here in a few posts and in the vid above ; constant dedication , purification . oration / invocation , emotive desire , mental will , physical process ( ritual / retreat , etc ) and 'spiritual connection' to self/s . There are essential things behind all practices , regardless of the 'cultural clothing' those practices wear . probably because we all share similarities in the human psyche . - a point about 'magical results' ...... work work work ... nothing ! But then later ...... 11 hours ago, Apech said: I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes. Someone hodge podged it all together ; taking the first principle of 'isolation / retreat / meditation / hermitage / vipassana ' ie. preparation by isolation from 'untoward ' influences ... letting arise , etc . 40 days in the desert ... all sorts of things can happen ; Crowley put it simply '' Super-consciousness of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.... '' and '' Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon ; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attained it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration ——as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. '' https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/1.2/postcards-to-probationers_low.pdf and attached it to this ' commanding demons ' ( fair enough ) but to fulfill base desires ( wtf ? ) IMO its all about ( or should have been or should be ) establishing and clearing the hierarchy of the psyche ; first purify and train and get clear in 'self' , next 'get clear ' on your spiritual hierarchy ( one's own 'hierarchy of being ' ) and start with invoking a higher principle in it ( but not one we are normally aware of ) ie, 'HGA ' then deal with the 'lower' or 'daemonic ' aspects , so the whole psyche works in unison according to will . The compiler maybe didnt understand any other process but knew about the squares and commanding demons so 'stuck that in ' ... or maybe just not the compiler , maybe the whole tradition had no other 'end to attach to it ' ? Its an awful lot of work though ... just to 'see dancing girls on a Wednesday ' Moving on to the alternative part 3' of the working ; '' On them will I impose my will - The Law of light . '' Ooooo ... its so good , here is all of it ; Spoiler O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom! Loose thou my spirit from the larvæ of the tomb! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere. Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange. These devils by my might to angels I will change. These nameless horrors I address without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view, Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew; For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. For me its about bringing lower aspects and drives ( ' that can develop 'personalities' , mini -selves ' , programs , splits or even 'rebellious spirits ') into concert with 'the one' and not to be in conflict with each other . ( However I am not denying 'outside influence' or 'invasive issues' as well ) 11 hours ago, Apech said: I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA). Interesting. Ngondro seems an essential preliminary ... like the above , but in the above it is also an essential preliminary . So I would not say the whole Abramelin operation is like nogondro ... just part 1 . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 17 hours ago 7 hours ago, Apech said: How can it be both? I suppose your HGA appears , you have a chat ... and you are ; '' Mhe .... '' ( It was only the hotel waiter hiding behind the curtains ) Spoiler I love that joke, but no one gets it ... breakdown ' Crowley on about the Abramelin ritual HGA contact . '' He starts the ritual but gives up, gets married and runs off to Cairo . he takes 'unmagician' wife Rose to museum - she sees Stele and starts channeling Crrrrowley thinks its rubbish and to prove it , follows her 'Chaos magick' instructions to show her if you dont stick to rules , it will not work . So they do a ritual in the hitel room according to Rose . Its successful, he contacts 'Aiwass' and gets The Book of the Law . later he claims Aiwass is his HGA In accounts about the ritual he states that the voice seems to have come from that part of the room 'near the curtains ' and later he talks about some entity called 'The waiter ' and then figures out 'the waiter ' is Aiwass . ( sneaky Aiwass ,,, knew they were fucked up on laudanum , doing a wacky ritual and pulled a prank on them - Arabic ; 'Awaz' - sound or voice . Aywa - yes . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 17 hours ago 3 hours ago, stirling said: ..... Having done the ngondro, I am inclined to agree. Struck me precisely the same way. Just the first part of Abremelin or including the second ( appearance of angel ) ... I am assuming certainly not the third part of Abremalin ? if just the first part ... its a common preliminary in many traditions . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted 16 hours ago 1 hour ago, Nungali said: This is what seems to happen . Conversely I got great results and blabber about it all the time , yet find it hard to pin down the actual work or single ritual that did it for me . Its been broached here in a few posts and in the vid above ; constant dedication , purification . oration / invocation , emotive desire , mental will , physical process ( ritual / retreat , etc ) and 'spiritual connection' to self/s . There are essential things behind all practices , regardless of the 'cultural clothing' those practices wear . probably because we all share similarities in the human psyche . - a point about 'magical results' ...... work work work ... nothing ! But then later ...... Someone hodge podged it all together ; taking the first principle of 'isolation / retreat / meditation / hermitage / vipassana ' ie. preparation by isolation from 'untoward ' influences ... letting arise , etc . 40 days in the desert ... all sorts of things can happen ; Crowley put it simply '' Super-consciousness of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.... '' and '' Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon ; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attained it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration ——as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. '' https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/1.2/postcards-to-probationers_low.pdf and attached it to this ' commanding demons ' ( fair enough ) but to fulfill base desires ( wtf ? ) IMO its all about ( or should have been or should be ) establishing and clearing the hierarchy of the psyche ; first purify and train and get clear in 'self' , next 'get clear ' on your spiritual hierarchy ( one's own 'hierarchy of being ' ) and start with invoking a higher principle in it ( but not one we are normally aware of ) ie, 'HGA ' then deal with the 'lower' or 'daemonic ' aspects , so the whole psyche works in unison according to will . The compiler maybe didnt understand any other process but knew about the squares and commanding demons so 'stuck that in ' ... or maybe just not the compiler , maybe the whole tradition had no other 'end to attach to it ' ? Its an awful lot of work though ... just to 'see dancing girls on a Wednesday ' Yes ... I mean a Wednesday ? save it for the weekend surely. I think the demon thing is possibly ok. I haven't read it yet but I can see the logic of, if you like solidifying the HGA by addressing the worldly powers. It makes sense and many parallels in say the Kalachakra tantra and so on. It's the magic squares that I don't get ... and suggest that this is just ann add on from someone's grimoire. (?) i.e. not directly relevant to the main work. Although I can see that in magic you do have to test its efficacy or its could all just be subjective mind tricks. 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Moving on to the alternative part 3' of the working ; '' On them will I impose my will - The Law of light . '' Ooooo ... its so good , here is all of it ; Reveal hidden contents O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom! Loose thou my spirit from the larvæ of the tomb! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere. Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange. These devils by my might to angels I will change. These nameless horrors I address without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view, Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew; For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. For me its about bringing lower aspects and drives ( ' that can develop 'personalities' , mini -selves ' , programs , splits or even 'rebellious spirits ') into concert with 'the one' and not to be in conflict with each other . ( However I am not denying 'outside influence' or 'invasive issues' as well ) Yep ... maybe. 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Ngondro seems an essential preliminary ... like the above , but in the above it is also an essential preliminary . So I would not say the whole Abramelin operation is like nogondro ... just part 1 . The translation of ngondro as preliminary is a bit misleading. Perhaps 'foundation practices' might be better. They are not just something you get out of the way before the heavy lifting starts. In fact in a lot of ways they are the heavy lifting. They are a practice in themselves which doesn't really end at completion. Although I've done the 100,000 of this and that ... I still do them. The guru or lama is in some respects your actual teacher .. but equally it is your buddha nature and the dharmakaya itself. The more I think about it the more hermetic the vajrayana seems (though perhaps not as taught these days in the west at least). I have had as much teaching in dreams and direct inspiration from vajradhara as I have had from my actual teacher (who I have not seen in years). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted 16 hours ago 8 hours ago, Apech said: How can it be both? I understood him to mean that there are easier ways of achieving the same results - for example speaking to the spirit as an equal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 8 hours ago (edited) 8 hours ago, Apech said: Yes ... I mean a Wednesday ? save it for the weekend surely. Weekend ? Use the 'see a football match' square . Quote I think the demon thing is possibly ok. I haven't read it yet but I can see the logic of, if you like solidifying the HGA by addressing the worldly powers. It makes sense and many parallels in say the Kalachakra tantra and so on. possibly okay in what way ? General use or that use specific to Abramelin working ? I mean , I think my use of them is 'ok' but I wouldnt use them for those mundane purposes , IMO - not okay . I know ... I know .... after becoming so 'Abrameliny Holy ' one just perviews dancing girls without lust or ... anything ... just an appreciation of art and beauty , and of course after finding treasure the successful operatopr will never use it for un spiritual purposes ... like wise enacting curses and destruction; well, the 'enlightened ' would only do that to those that deserve it Quote It's the magic squares that I don't get ... Dont get .... in what way .... why they are there at all or how they are supposed to work ? I am supposing you understand the number patterns involved . So then each square has a number attached . To get the sigil, the basic rule is ; converting the letters in their names to numeric value ( via 'kabbalah of 9 chambers ' ) then marking those numbers on the square , then its a case of 'join the dots' with ( some artistic license ). Having the sigil is part of asserting control over the demon . Basic instructions ; ( Just in case you want to try the 'whole deal ' .... even though I know what you are going to do ! Spoiler cat food on a Wednesday catfood on a Thursday a fish on Friday lie around all day on Saturday ( Shabbat , so ... ) rainbow snowcone on Sunday '' Ooooo yummie ! Can I have lick ?'' '' No , you are not holy enough .... you would enjoy it too much .'' Quote and suggest that this is just ann add on from someone's grimoire. (?) ' Some Arab's grimoire ' . Supposedly, the first magic squares were known in China but use to form sigils or similar occult purpose around 12th C by Arabs+ and Islam associating them with angels * ... and of course crossing over to Judaism and Christianity ( the 'religious setting ' the rite is in ) , via Solomon ... maybe the first widely known magician.... who could control djin . As Islamic works began to penetrate Europe , first was the idea of linking magic squares to planets ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Fixed_Stars then to planets and the planets associated angels (and demons ) ... https://ciphermysteries.com/2018/03/25/the-liber-de-angelis-and-the-voynich-manuscripts-planet-sequence and a whole range of others ... Spoiler AI overview : Key Transmission Points: Al-Andalus (Islamic Spain): After the Muslim conquest in 711 AD, cities like Toledo became vital centers where Christian, Jewish, and Muslim scholars translated vast amounts of Arabic scientific and philosophical texts (including works by Greek masters preserved in Arabic) into Latin, introducing concepts of natural magic, astrology, and divination. Sicily: Under Norman rule (post-1091), a unique Arab-Norman-Byzantine culture flourished, with rulers like Roger II employing Islamic scientists, fostering an environment where Islamic knowledge, including magical practices, was integrated and transmitted. Mechanisms of Transmission: Translation Movement: Key figures like Gerard of Cremona (12th century) translated numerous Arabic works in Toledo, making sophisticated magical and astrological theories (e.g., al-Kindi's extramission theory) accessible to Latin scholars. Cultural Exchange: Merchants, travelers, crusaders, and scholars exchanged goods, ideas, and texts, bringing Arabic manuscripts and concepts back to Europe. Trade Routes: Trade networks across North Africa and the Mediterranean facilitated the flow of luxury goods, ideas, and manuscripts. Key Concepts & Texts Introduced: Magic as Natural Philosophy: Islamic scholars, building on Greek ideas, developed sophisticated theories of natural magic, often linked to astrology, talismanic magic, and the influence of celestial bodies on Earth. Medical & Esoteric Texts: Works by figures like Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and al-Kindī on optics, souls, and natural philosophy influenced European understanding of the senses and distant effects (like the evil eye). Grimoires & Divination: Texts on divination, astrology (astrology was integral to Islamic science), and grimoires (books of magic) circulated, incorporating Islamic invocations to God and angels alongside older traditions. Impact on Europe: This influx of knowledge challenged European intellectual frameworks, particularly during the Renaissance, influencing thinkers and magicians who adopted and adapted these ideas, blending them with Christian theology and developing unique Western magical traditions. coming to , 16th C and the famous 'originator ' of much modern magic Agrippa : https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/407-agrippa-textual-study/ + eg . . ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shams_al-Ma'arif * eg relating the 3 x3 'wafg' to the 4 archangels . Quote i.e. not directly relevant to the main work. Not to my main work . And I would say adding that on to Abramelin ( considering their 'powers' , usage and purpose * ), after all that devotion and 'holiness' speaks for itself . * eg, if I 'get hold' of Kedemel , I am not going to compel her to make me see dancing maidens on a Wednesday , or Barzabel to cause a domestic argument with my neighbors on a Tuesday ..... for me it would be to balance the Venus and Mars aspects in my psyche . yet again ... Liber Librae '' ... For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee. '' which is what usually eventuates from these enterprises , or more usually (and in the case of this film ) these weaknesses are already present and enter and corrupt the preliminary purification period , hence corrupting the ritual and output . Quote Although I can see that in magic you do have to test its efficacy or its could all just be subjective mind tricks. Wait ! Isnt everything just subjective mind tricks ? Quote Yep ... maybe. The translation of ngondro as preliminary is a bit misleading. Perhaps 'foundation practices' might be better. They are not just something you get out of the way before the heavy lifting starts. In fact in a lot of ways they are the heavy lifting. They are a practice in themselves which doesn't really end at completion. Although I've done the 100,000 of this and that ... I still do them. The guru or lama is in some respects your actual teacher .. but equally it is your buddha nature and the dharmakaya itself. The more I think about it the more hermetic the vajrayana seems (though perhaps not as taught these days in the west at least). I have had as much teaching in dreams and direct inspiration from vajradhara as I have had from my actual teacher (who I have not seen in years). I dont really go along with those comparisons ... its within the traditions own explanations where we realize the essential differences eg I dont see Abremalin working as similar to 'stream entry ' as Abremalin ritual (probably ) will not give you 'complete certitude in Buddha , Dhamma and Sanga ' . Edited 8 hours ago by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
