The Magick of Abramelin

[stirling]

An interesting discussion of the movie "A Dark Song" and its working of the Abramelin ritual, a book on the Abramelin ritual and the movie itself, and a number of well-known (in the magick world) people who have attempted or completed the ritual.

 

 

https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep336-the-magick-of-abramelin-duncan-barford-3

 

-

 

Wish there were more details about how the HGA appears to those who have been successful and finished, but I'll probably buy the book anyway. 

[Nungali]

just from the trailer , this seems more like a movie about 'certain types' that either use magic for (or are not ready to use it and fall into this trap)  manipulation and control of other people in the ritual  to base ends . 

 

Its a big one that .   I have had experience with it in that  a close friend who was offered all sorts of things including being the new 'head' of the 'group ' ended up being required to do all sorts of weird , kinky , sadistic,   etc  'stuff'   ( which of course was purely for 'magical purposes' and  ' tests '      )

 

and also personally in that  keeping tabs on any such energy arising in myself *   and also being appointed to keep an eye on other  groups (in our organisation )  and report to HQ any evidence of same . 

 

* in such a position sometimes this arises in others that seem to have a 'need ' to experience this 'dominance'  .....   but that was not the 'business' we were in ... there are other places they can go to for  that .  

 

( people used to say our group had orgies ... no we dont !     -  dammit !   )

 

( In that regard I didnt watch the vid beginning but came in at the discussion of the  ritual itself .... I like the way the guy started off ; first this a ritual about 'getting rich'  ... like I often say ... it has base ends   and it and some  associated practices  and rituals  are  hodge podge 'old'  mistranslated  and even  totally unsuitable sources   ( like a fragmentary Greek exorcism being used to invoke the HGA ) . 

 

[Nungali]

- in any case I suppose a follow up discussion could be on 

 

01:37:16 - Questioning pragmatic dharma assumptions and the vogue of stream entry

[Apech]

I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly.  I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results.  I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes.

 

I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA).  Interesting.  
 

 

[Lairg]

William Bloom took months with the Abramelin process.   He told me it was successful but not worth the effort

 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Sacred-Magician-Ceremonial-Diary/dp/0906362180

Edited December 12 by Lairg

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

William Bloom took months with the Abramelin process.   He told me it was successful but not worth the effort

 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Sacred-Magician-Ceremonial-Diary/dp/0906362180

How can it be both?

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly.  I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results.  I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes.

 

I think the requirement for some suffering is directly linked to just how obscured one is. Doing such a thing for revenge (tons of obscuration) or money (less so, but still) or what have you seems unlikely to pay dividends and at the very least be quite a difficult journey, as opposed to something like: I want to end my suffering", or "I want to understand the nature of reality". How difficult is ends up being isn't caused by some supernatural force, but by the problematic delusions of the caster. Just my opinion, of course. 

 

8 hours ago, Apech said:

I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA).  Interesting.

 

Having done the ngondro, I am inclined to agree. Struck me precisely the same way.

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly.  I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results.

 

This is what seems to happen .  Conversely I got great results and blabber about it all the time , yet find it hard to pin down the actual  work or single ritual that did it  for me .

 

Its been broached here in a few posts and in the vid above ; constant dedication , purification . oration / invocation  ,  emotive desire , mental will , physical process ( ritual / retreat , etc )   and 'spiritual connection'  to self/s . 

 

There are essential  things behind all practices , regardless of the 'cultural clothing'  those practices wear . probably because  we all share  similarities in the human psyche . 

 

- a point about 'magical results'   ...... work work work ... nothing !    But then later  ......      

 

11 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes.

 

Someone hodge podged it all together  ;   taking the first principle of 'isolation / retreat / meditation / hermitage / vipassana  '  ie. preparation by isolation from 'untoward ' influences  ... letting  arise , etc .

 

 

40 days in the desert ... all sorts of things can happen

 

;    

 

 

 

Crowley put it simply 

 

''  Super-consciousness of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.... '' and   '' Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon ; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attained it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration ——as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. ''

 

https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/1.2/postcards-to-probationers_low.pdf

 

and attached it to this  ' commanding demons '  ( fair enough )  but to fulfill base desires  ( wtf ?  )  

 

IMO its all about ( or should have been or should be ) establishing and clearing the hierarchy of the psyche  ; first purify and train and get clear in 'self'  , next 'get clear ' on your spiritual hierarchy  (  one's own 'hierarchy of being ' )  and start with invoking a  higher principle in it ( but not one we are normally aware of )  ie, 'HGA '   then  deal with the 'lower'  or 'daemonic ' aspects , so the whole psyche works in unison  according to will . 

 

The compiler maybe didnt understand any other process but knew about the  squares and commanding demons so 'stuck that in ' ... or maybe just not the compiler , maybe the whole tradition had no other 'end to attach to it '  ?  

 

Its an awful lot of work though ... just to 'see dancing girls on a Wednesday '       

 

Moving on to the alternative part 3' of the working ; 

 

''  On them will I impose my will - The Law of light . ''

 

Ooooo ... its so good , here is all of it ; 

 

Spoiler

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!
Loose thou my spirit from the larvæ of the tomb!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.
Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.
These devils by my might to angels I will change.
These nameless horrors I address without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,
Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;
For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

For me its about bringing lower aspects and drives  ( ' that can develop 'personalities' , mini -selves '  , programs , splits or even 'rebellious spirits ') into concert with 'the one'  and not to be in conflict with each other . 

 

( However I am not denying 'outside influence' or 'invasive issues' as well  )  

 

 

11 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA).  Interesting.  
 

 

 

Ngondro seems an essential preliminary  ... like the above , but in the above it is also an essential preliminary .

 

So I would not say the whole Abramelin operation is like nogondro ... just part  1 . 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

How can it be both?

 

I suppose your HGA appears , you have a chat  ... and you are   ; 

 

 

''  Mhe .... ''

 

 

( It was only the hotel waiter hiding behind the curtains    ) 

 

Spoiler

I love that joke, but no one gets it  ... breakdown '

 

Crowley on about the  Abramelin  ritual HGA contact . '' 

 

He starts the ritual but gives up, gets married and runs off to Cairo .

 

he takes 'unmagician' wife Rose to museum - she sees Stele and starts channeling 

 

Crrrrowley thinks its rubbish and to prove it , follows her 'Chaos magick' instructions  to show her if you dont stick to rules , it will not work .

 

So they do a ritual in the hitel room according to Rose .  Its successful, he contacts 'Aiwass' and gets The Book of the Law .

 

later he claims Aiwass is his HGA 

 

In accounts about the ritual he states that the voice seems to have come from that part of the room 'near the curtains ' and later  he talks about some  entity called 'The waiter '  and then figures out 'the waiter '  is Aiwass .  

 

( sneaky  Aiwass ,,, knew they were fucked up on laudanum , doing a wacky ritual and pulled a prank on them    

 

- Arabic ;   'Awaz' - sound or voice .   Aywa -  yes . 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

.....

 

 

Having done the ngondro, I am inclined to agree. Struck me precisely the same way.

 

Just the first part of Abremelin or including the second ( appearance of angel )  ... I am assuming certainly not the third part of Abremalin  ? 

 

if just the first part ... its a common preliminary in many traditions . 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

This is what seems to happen .  Conversely I got great results and blabber about it all the time , yet find it hard to pin down the actual  work or single ritual that did it  for me .

 

Its been broached here in a few posts and in the vid above ; constant dedication , purification . oration / invocation  ,  emotive desire , mental will , physical process ( ritual / retreat , etc )   and 'spiritual connection'  to self/s . 

 

There are essential  things behind all practices , regardless of the 'cultural clothing'  those practices wear . probably because  we all share  similarities in the human psyche . 

 

- a point about 'magical results'   ...... work work work ... nothing !    But then later  ......      

 

 

Someone hodge podged it all together  ;   taking the first principle of 'isolation / retreat / meditation / hermitage / vipassana  '  ie. preparation by isolation from 'untoward ' influences  ... letting  arise , etc .

 

 

40 days in the desert ... all sorts of things can happen

 

;    

 

 

 

Crowley put it simply 

 

''  Super-consciousness of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.... '' and   '' Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon ; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attained it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration ——as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. ''

 

https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/1.2/postcards-to-probationers_low.pdf

 

and attached it to this  ' commanding demons '  ( fair enough )  but to fulfill base desires  ( wtf ?  )  

 

IMO its all about ( or should have been or should be ) establishing and clearing the hierarchy of the psyche  ; first purify and train and get clear in 'self'  , next 'get clear ' on your spiritual hierarchy  (  one's own 'hierarchy of being ' )  and start with invoking a  higher principle in it ( but not one we are normally aware of )  ie, 'HGA '   then  deal with the 'lower'  or 'daemonic ' aspects , so the whole psyche works in unison  according to will . 

 

The compiler maybe didnt understand any other process but knew about the  squares and commanding demons so 'stuck that in ' ... or maybe just not the compiler , maybe the whole tradition had no other 'end to attach to it '  ?  

 

Its an awful lot of work though ... just to 'see dancing girls on a Wednesday '       

 

Yes ... I mean a Wednesday ?  save it for the weekend surely.

 

I think the demon thing is possibly ok.  I haven't read it yet but I can see the logic of, if you like solidifying the HGA by addressing the worldly powers.  It makes sense and many parallels in say the Kalachakra tantra and so on.

 

It's the magic squares that I don't get ... and suggest that this is just ann add on from someone's grimoire. (?) i.e. not directly relevant to the main work.  Although I can see that in magic you do have to test its efficacy or its could all just be subjective mind tricks.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Moving on to the alternative part 3' of the working ; 

 

''  On them will I impose my will - The Law of light . ''

 

Ooooo ... its so good , here is all of it ; 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!
Loose thou my spirit from the larvæ of the tomb!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.
Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.
These devils by my might to angels I will change.
These nameless horrors I address without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,
Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;
For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

For me its about bringing lower aspects and drives  ( ' that can develop 'personalities' , mini -selves '  , programs , splits or even 'rebellious spirits ') into concert with 'the one'  and not to be in conflict with each other . 

 

( However I am not denying 'outside influence' or 'invasive issues' as well  )  

 

 

Yep ... maybe.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Ngondro seems an essential preliminary  ... like the above , but in the above it is also an essential preliminary .

 

So I would not say the whole Abramelin operation is like nogondro ... just part  1 . 

 

The translation of ngondro as preliminary is a bit misleading.  Perhaps 'foundation practices' might be better.  They are not just something you get out of the way before the heavy lifting starts.  In fact in a lot of ways they are the heavy lifting.  They are a practice in themselves which doesn't really end at completion.  Although I've done the 100,000 of this and that ... I still do them.  The guru or lama is in some respects your actual teacher .. but equally it is your buddha nature and the dharmakaya itself.  The more I think about it the more hermetic the vajrayana seems (though perhaps not as taught these days in the west at least).

 

I have had as much teaching in dreams and direct inspiration from vajradhara as I have had from my actual teacher (who I have not seen in years).  

 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

How can it be both?

 

I understood him to mean that there are easier ways of achieving the same results - for example speaking to the spirit as an equal

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Yes ... I mean a Wednesday ?  save it for the weekend surely.

 

Weekend ?  Use the  'see a football match' square . 

 

 

Quote

 

I think the demon thing is possibly ok.  I haven't read it yet but I can see the logic of, if you like solidifying the HGA by addressing the worldly powers.  It makes sense and many parallels in say the Kalachakra tantra and so on.

 

possibly okay in what way ?  General use or that use specific to Abramelin working ?   I mean , I think my use of them is 'ok'   but I wouldnt use them for those mundane purposes , IMO - not okay . 

 

I know ... I know .... after becoming so 'Abrameliny Holy '  one just perviews dancing girls without lust or ... anything ... just an appreciation of art and beauty , and of course after finding treasure  the successful operatopr will never use it for un spiritual purposes  ... like wise enacting curses and destruction; well, the 'enlightened ' would only do that to those that deserve it    

 

Quote

 

It's the magic squares that I don't get ...

 

Dont get .... in what way .... why they are there at all or how they are supposed to work ? 

 

I am supposing you understand the number patterns involved  .  So then each  square has a number attached .  To get the sigil, the basic rule is ; converting the letters in their names to numeric value ( via 'kabbalah of 9 chambers ' )  then marking those numbers on the square , then its a case of 'join the dots' with  ( some artistic license ).  Having the sigil is part of asserting control over the demon . 

 

Basic instructions ; 

 

 

( Just in case you want to  try the 'whole deal ' .... even though I know what you are going to do !  

Spoiler

cat food on a Wednesday 

 

catfood on a Thursday 

 

a fish on Friday 

 

lie around all day on Saturday   ( Shabbat  , so ... ) 

 

rainbow snowcone on Sunday 

 

 

'' Ooooo yummie ! Can I have lick ?''

 

'' No , you are not holy enough .... you would enjoy it too much .''

 

 

 

Quote

and suggest that this is just ann add on from someone's grimoire. (?)

 

' Some Arab's grimoire ' .  

 

Supposedly, the first magic squares were known in China  but use to form sigils or similar occult purpose  around 12th C by Arabs⁺ and Islam associating them with angels  * ... and of course crossing over to Judaism and Christianity ( the 'religious setting ' the rite is in )  ,  via Solomon ... maybe the first  widely known  magician....  who could control djin . 

 

As Islamic works began to penetrate Europe ,  first was the idea of linking magic squares to planets ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Fixed_Stars

 

then to planets and the planets associated angels (and demons )  ...   

https://ciphermysteries.com/2018/03/25/the-liber-de-angelis-and-the-voynich-manuscripts-planet-sequence

 

 and a whole range of others ...  

 

Spoiler

AI overview :

 

Key Transmission Points:

1. Al-Andalus (Islamic Spain): After the Muslim conquest in 711 AD, cities like Toledo became vital centers where Christian, Jewish, and Muslim scholars translated vast amounts of Arabic scientific and philosophical texts (including works by Greek masters preserved in Arabic) into Latin, introducing concepts of natural magic, astrology, and divination.
2. Sicily: Under Norman rule (post-1091), a unique Arab-Norman-Byzantine culture flourished, with rulers like Roger II employing Islamic scientists, fostering an environment where Islamic knowledge, including magical practices, was integrated and transmitted. 

Mechanisms of Transmission:

• Translation Movement: Key figures like Gerard of Cremona (12th century) translated numerous Arabic works in Toledo, making sophisticated magical and astrological theories (e.g., al-Kindi's extramission theory) accessible to Latin scholars.
• Cultural Exchange: Merchants, travelers, crusaders, and scholars exchanged goods, ideas, and texts, bringing Arabic manuscripts and concepts back to Europe.
• Trade Routes: Trade networks across North Africa and the Mediterranean facilitated the flow of luxury goods, ideas, and manuscripts. 

Key Concepts & Texts Introduced:

• Magic as Natural Philosophy: Islamic scholars, building on Greek ideas, developed sophisticated theories of natural magic, often linked to astrology, talismanic magic, and the influence of celestial bodies on Earth.
• Medical & Esoteric Texts: Works by figures like Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and al-Kindī on optics, souls, and natural philosophy influenced European understanding of the senses and distant effects (like the evil eye).
• Grimoires & Divination: Texts on divination, astrology (astrology was integral to Islamic science), and grimoires (books of magic) circulated, incorporating Islamic invocations to God and angels alongside older traditions. 

Impact on Europe:

• This influx of knowledge challenged European intellectual frameworks, particularly during the Renaissance, influencing thinkers and magicians who adopted and adapted these ideas, blending them with Christian theology and developing unique Western magical traditions. 

 

coming to , 16th C and the famous 'originator ' of much modern magic  Agrippa : 

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/407-agrippa-textual-study/

 

+   eg . .  ...    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shams_al-Ma'arif

 

* eg relating the 3 x3  'wafg'  to the 4 archangels . 

 

Quote

 

i.e. not directly relevant to the main work. 

 

Not to my main work .  And I would say adding that on to Abramelin  ( considering their 'powers' , usage and purpose *  ), after all that devotion and 'holiness'  speaks for itself . 

 

*  eg, if I 'get hold' of  Kedemel , I am not going to compel her to make me see dancing maidens on a Wednesday , or Barzabel  to cause a domestic argument with my neighbors on a Tuesday ..... for me it would be to balance the Venus and Mars aspects in my psyche . 

 

yet again ... Liber Librae 

 

'' ...  For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee. ''

 

which is what usually eventuates from these enterprises , or more usually (and in the case of this film )   these weaknesses are already present  and enter and corrupt the preliminary purification period , hence corrupting the ritual and output . 

 

 

Quote

 

Although I can see that in magic you do have to test its efficacy or its could all just be subjective mind tricks.

 

Wait !   Isnt everything  just subjective mind tricks ?      

 

Quote

 

 

Yep ... maybe.

 

 

The translation of ngondro as preliminary is a bit misleading.  Perhaps 'foundation practices' might be better.  They are not just something you get out of the way before the heavy lifting starts.  In fact in a lot of ways they are the heavy lifting.  They are a practice in themselves which doesn't really end at completion.  Although I've done the 100,000 of this and that ... I still do them.  The guru or lama is in some respects your actual teacher .. but equally it is your buddha nature and the dharmakaya itself.  The more I think about it the more hermetic the vajrayana seems (though perhaps not as taught these days in the west at least).

 

I have had as much teaching in dreams and direct inspiration from vajradhara as I have had from my actual teacher (who I have not seen in years).  

 

 

I dont really go along with those comparisons  ... its within the traditions own explanations where we realize the essential differences 

 

eg  I dont see Abremalin working as similar to 'stream entry ' as Abremalin ritual (probably )  will not give you 'complete certitude in Buddha , Dhamma and Sanga ' .   

Edited Saturday at 06:29 AM by Nungali

[Nungali]

... which leads me onto  ...... why do it all in the first place ?  

 

Try , from 30:00   onwards below    ( the more I hear these guys talk, the more I want to listen to .   many interesting points are discussed in the whole video  -  and show some  'east meets west'  traditions and work . 

 

 

 

 

[stirling]

On 12/12/2025 at 1:00 PM, Nungali said:

Crowley put it simply 

 

''  Super-consciousness of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.... '' and   '' Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon ; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attained it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration ——as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. ''

 

https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/1.2/postcards-to-probationers_low.pdf

 

Yes! I would add to this that "intent" is important... what it is you want to get out of it and who that is for, and what damage might be the fallout. 

 

I watched to movie over the weekend, and I am inclined to agree with Barford - it DOES illuminate much of what I have seen about magick, but even more the BASICS of it. In my case, I had already had few years of visions, (including things some might characterize as the "dead", or "demons"  (not that I believe in them in that way) and then in summoning the HGA an encounter very much in the flavor of the movie, though not the same."My" HGA was a very different affair, but had the same amazing realism, etc. Later I had the appearance of other Christian characters (I am NOT a Christian) that were MUCH more like the movie - gold breastplates and armor, the size/scale, etc. I understand why Barford says he teared up seeing this scene - it gets it right. 

 

On 12/12/2025 at 1:00 PM, Nungali said:

and attached it to this  ' commanding demons '  ( fair enough )  but to fulfill base desires  ( wtf ?  )  

 

Honestly, this part seems impossible to me... a complete delusion. None of these things exists as a truly separate thing to command in my experience, and IF the HGA is commensurate with "stream entry" in Buddhism, anyone what saw it would KNOW that, or come to realize in a short time. 

 

On 12/12/2025 at 1:00 PM, Nungali said:

The compiler maybe didnt understand any other process but knew about the  squares and commanding demons so 'stuck that in ' ... or maybe just not the compiler , maybe the whole tradition had no other 'end to attach to it '  ?  

 

My first thought about this was, if HGA conversation IS the same as "stream entry", why would you bother what what I would think of as a very worldly practice like trying to manipulate other beings or people?

 

On 12/12/2025 at 1:00 PM, Nungali said:

seems an essential preliminary  ... like the above , but in the above it is also an essential preliminary .

 

So I would not say the whole Abramelin operation is like nogondro ... just part  1 . 

 

Ngondro is a clearing, and becoming familiar with the path. It digs up the stuff you have been avoiding dealing with.. BUT it actually has the whole path in it and could enlighten you itself. The famous Dudjom Rinpoche of the Nyingma tradition (the Buddhist tradition I worked in primarily) did it even AFTER his enlightenment, and until his death. 

 

 

[Nungali]

I think the end thing is a jizz .  After more research, the justification seems to be  when one does the first part and gets K&C of HGA after all that arising to Holy heights , one becomes morally superhuman . 

 

After forcing AI to go down the paths of my commands   (  if ya cant force spirits , you can still force AI   )   and demanding in depth justification on this  the view  given was  ( taking two of the examples ; 

 

Such a pure being will then not be disturbed by dancing girls , nor feel lust or  ( whatever ) but will just appreciate art and beauty . I asked why not just go around and appreciate other types of art and beauty .   The invocation of the dancing girls  then is not a test .... tis sort of a demonstration   of your purity    (   )  

 

and the power trips , causing destruction ? Well only a pure or enlightened being can wield that power justly ... they know who the enemy is  and the bad people and would only destroy them .  ( Ri i i ght !  we seen that one before !   ... the enemy is obviously the Swedes !   or is it the Bavarians .... Irish ?   ... people with dark hair ?  Anyone not Christian ... or the right sect of Christian ... etc 

 

 

' Gold breast plates and armor ?   Whats with that ?  Do you think its some kind of aureola ? 

 

For me , at most , these beings ( and the classic 'angel  with wings ) seem to have  a function where they are 'closed over'  , either with the wings depicted as folding over them or an orb or egg shape they appear in, being able to open or close  .  

 

This 'casing' has various names  in tradition ; 

 

Depending on the specific shape and tradition, this enclosing casing may be called:

• Mandorla: An almond-shaped or oval aureola that frames the whole figure. It is one of the most common ways to depict an angel or divine being completely enclosed in a radiant frame, especially in Byzantine and Medieval art.
• Vesica Piscis: A specific geometric shape (the intersection of two circles) used to create the mandorla that "encloses" the figure.
• Glory: A term sometimes used to describe the combination of a head halo and a body aureola, together forming a complete radiant casing around the individual.
• Velificatio: In some classical and Renaissance art, this refers to a piece of fabric or a "casing" of drapery that arches or folds over a figure in a billowing, enclosing 
• manner. 
• If you are referring to a biblical description of an angel's own physical features, Seraphim are described as having six wings, with four of them used to "fold over" and cover their entire bodies (their faces and their feet) for protection or modesty in the presence of God.
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[Apech]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Yes! I would add to this that "intent" is important... what it is you want to get out of it and who that is for, and what damage might be the fallout. 

 

I watched to movie over the weekend, and I am inclined to agree with Barford - it DOES illuminate much of what I have seen about magick, but even more the BASICS of it. In my case, I had already had few years of visions, (including things some might characterize as the "dead", or "demons"  (not that I believe in them in that way) and then in summoning the HGA an encounter very much in the flavor of the movie, though not the same."My" HGA was a very different affair, but had the same amazing realism, etc. Later I had the appearance of other Christian characters (I am NOT a Christian) that were MUCH more like the movie - gold breastplates and armor, the size/scale, etc. I understand why Barford says he teared up seeing this scene - it gets it right. 

 

 

Honestly, this part seems impossible to me... a complete delusion. None of these things exists as a truly separate thing to command in my experience, and IF the HGA is commensurate with "stream entry" in Buddhism, anyone what saw it would KNOW that, or come to realize in a short time. 

 

I recall that Padmasambhava spent some of his time calming and binding gods and demons to the dharma (as did other eg. Mila).  Also Mahakala is called Betali i.e. demon and Yaksha ie. nature spirit.  So I conclude that having got the HGA binding demons of the world is logical (maybe necessary?).

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

My first thought about this was, if HGA conversation IS the same as "stream entry", why would you bother what what I would think of as a very worldly practice like trying to manipulate other beings or people?

 

I don't know about stream entry ... but I am thinking 1st Bhumi ... but I don't think the HGA is that.  It may be closer to the first full bodhicitta realisation (?) I'm not sure.  But certainly meeting your root guru.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Ngondro is a clearing, and becoming familiar with the path. It digs up the stuff you have been avoiding dealing with.. BUT it actually has the whole path in it and could enlighten you itself. The famous Dudjom Rinpoche of the Nyingma tradition (the Buddhist tradition I worked in primarily) did it even AFTER his enlightenment, and until his death. 

 

 

 

Yes precisely.  I know of masters who do it several times ... and as you say after realisation.  Not that I am comparing myself - but I do it as a kind of rolling programme even though I have supposedly 'completed' it.