Apech Posted October 10 This the front of the Stele (more information found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele_of_Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 10 Just now, Apech said: This the front of the Stele (more information found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele_of_Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu). The picture shows at the top the body of the sky goddess Nut which forms an arc over the whole scene. Below this Bedhety (a form of Horus as the winged disk) who is called Lord of the Sky. Ankh-f-n-Khonshu dressed as a Sem priest making offerings to the seated god Ra-Horakhty, behind whom is the symbol for the West. Between the the offering table containing bread, beer, meat and fowl. Below this is the main text. The main text is a version fo Spell 91 from the Book of the Dead. [B1–B5] Main text: [B1] Words spoken by the Osiris (i.e., the deceased), God's Servant of Montu, Lord of Waset, Opener of the Door-leaves of Heaven in the Most Select of Places (i.e., Karnak), Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu, [B2] True of Voice: "O Exalted-one! may he be praised, Great of Manifestations, the great Ba whom [B3] the gods fear, and who appears on his great throne, make the path of the Ba, the Akh, and the Shadow, for I am equipped so that (I) might shine therein [B4] (as) an equipped-one. Make for me the path to the place in which Re, Atum, Khepri,[11] and Hathor are therein." The Osiris, God's Servant of Montu, Lord of Waset, [B5] Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu, <True of> Voice, son of the like titled Ba-sa-en-Mut, borne of the Chantress of Amun-Re, Lady of the House, Ta-nesh<et>.[12] On the back is a version of Spell 30b from the Book of the Dead: [C1] Words spoken by the Osiris (i.e., the deceased), God's Servant of Montu, Lord of Waset, Ankh-ef-en- [C2] Khonsu, True of Voice: "(O) my heart of my mother [2 times], (O) my heart while I existed [C3] upon earth, do not stand against me as a witness, do not oppose me in [C4] in the tribunal, do not be hostile against me in the presence of the Great God, Lord of the West. [C5] Although I have united (myself) to the land (i.e. died) to the great western side of Heaven, may I flourish upon earth!" [C6] Words spoken by the Osiris, the Stolist[13] of Waset, Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu, True of Voice: O (you who are) Unique [C7], who shines like the moon, the Osiris, Ankh-ef- [C8] en-Khonsu, goes forth from your multitudes, [C9] (O) deliverer of those who are within the sun-light, open for him [C10] the Netherworld, indeed, the Osiris, Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu who goes forth in [C11] day in order to do everything all that pleased him upon earth among the living-ones." 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 10 Nice Intro . Where do we go from here ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 10 12 minutes ago, Nungali said: Nice Intro . Where do we go from here ? I was going to go through the text and interpret it. Also talk about what the pics mean. I'm very slow these days ... getting old. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lala Nila Posted October 11 I'm looking forward to the interpretation! 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 11 7 hours ago, Apech said: I was going to go through the text and interpret it. Also talk about what the pics mean. I'm very slow these days ... getting old. Sounds good . I was thinking lets start at the top and look at what Nut might have meant to those ancient Egyptians (at that time and perhaps other times ; her development etc. ) and what she might mean to us . And then the same with the 'winged disc' . Then the same with that form of Horus . ( To me some prime triad is suggested .) Then the priest , who is the forth or material 'mode' or function ( as in my 'ideal triad ' manifesting as a 4th 'material principle { 3 : 4 theory observed throughout nature and physics } ) . - as a background to the dynamics in the text . Of course, if you want to go straight to text and interpretation , I am all for that too I am old too .... ( but I ain't got much else to do in this padded cell in Portugal ) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 11 I want to start with the text because its got some interesting things in it. The main text is based on Spell 91 Book of the Dead - and this spell has a rubric (text written in red to amplify the meaning) which goes as follows: "As for him who knows this spell, he shall become an equipped spirit in the realm of the dead, he shall not be restrained at any gate of the West whether coming or going. A true matter." An equipped spirit means a spirit (akh) who has everything they need to exist. They can do anything they choose, can come and go in perfect freedom and have no limits on their action. This is the goal of Egyptian mysticism and is sometimes called akhification. It is an eternal, immortal yet spiritualised state. It derives from the Pyramid Texts which were written in 2350 BC about 1700 years before this Stele! Showing the amazing cultural integrity of Ancient Egypt. If you want to know more about the Pyramid Texts I would recommend this video by Justin Sledge of the Esoterica channel: 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 11 So the next question will be ... what exactly is a ba ... and also what is a shadow (shade). Then we can begin to answer some real questions Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 12 21 hours ago, Apech said: So the next question will be ... what exactly is a ba ... and also what is a shadow (shade). Then we can begin to answer some real questions We can see from the given text that the priest addresses the god he is offering to as follows: "O Exalted-one! may he be praised, Great of Manifestations, the great Ba whom [B3] the gods fear ..." The word for manifestations is baw i.e. three ba birds ... and also the god is addressed as the great Ba. So we can see from the text without the need for any further elaboration that the 'ba' is related to the power to manifest and also that gods can be addressed as ba (interchangably with the usual word for god which is neter or netcher). So while the word ba is usually translated as 'soul' (which is itself a rather vague word these days) it might be better to translate it as 'divine power which can manifest'. Each person was said to have their own ba, usually shown as a human headed bird. This was one of the most important entities which together with others made a human being. As the Egyptians did not see a person as one thing but rather several entities interacting (that is until the person became 'one' in forming the akh spirit.) After death the ba of the deceased was said to fly to the East to view the sunrise. The ba unlike th eka was not bound t the body or dependent on offerings for sustenance. Spell 17 of the Book of the Dead describes what is said on viewing the sunrise (which as seen as a recapitulation of the the original creation of the cosmos in the first time. Here is a quote of the beginning of Chapter 17: Words spoken by the Osiris N: I am Ra in his rising, first in ruling what he made. What does it mean? It means Ra in his rising when first ruling what he made, It means the first rising of Ra in Henennesut, when there was the creation of the supports of Nun when he was on the high ground which is in Khemenu, when the children of the rebel were destroyed for him on the high ground which is in Khemenu. The Osiris N means the deceased ... or specifically his ba. And in the first line it is saying 'I am Ra ...' - where Ra is the sun-god creator. So the ba is saying 'I am Ra...' affirming his non-dual relation with the solar energy. Thus his innate divine nature. So for a definition of ba we can say 'a luminous divine power which creates forms from itself'. It is the divine spark if you like within us all. Our nature as spirit. A luminous energy which projects images. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted Thursday at 11:54 AM So .... anyway ... the next interesting part of the text is this: "make the path of the Ba, the Akh, and the Shadow, for I am equipped so that (I) might shine therein [B4] (as) an equipped-one. Make for me the path to the place in which Re, Atum, Khepri,[11] and Hathor are therein." We've already talked about the Ba and the akh. But here they include the Shadow (shwty). When the Ba goes to the East it is accompanied by the Shadow. Although the Shadow cannot fly as the Ba does. Usually the Shadow is shown as a black silhouette in the shape of the person. So it is an entity which has form but no substance. In a way it is the reflex of the ba which is luminous, an entity of pure form, an entity of air and not light/fire. Then the text talks about four gods. Here these gods represent four cycles or stages which are outlines in the Book of the Dead. 1. The path of Re (Ra) is a path of seeing - of seeing the sunrise and realising one's identity with the sun. 2. The path of Atum where you absorb the qualities of the sun into yourself back to the primordial substance of your being. 3. The path of Khepri where you perform transformations to universalize your understanding 4. The path of Hathor where you reside in perfect joy/bliss of 'unity'. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Thursday at 09:59 PM I keep looking for comparisons which are not in the text - any 'modern understanding ' . But you seem to be keeping within a more 'Egyptian understanding ' . For example , I want to know more about this use of the 'shadow' , but you seem to be keeping within ' Egyptian ' understanding . So I would like to hear a bit more on this concept of shadow and how it relates to the larger personal schemata ... from the Egyptian understanding and if you want , from your own as well . Also the last section reminds me of that part of the practice I did (using the Stele ) at the four stations of the Sun : 1. The path of Re (Ra) is a path of seeing - of seeing the sunrise and realising one's identity with the sun. (Time of performance was at dawn ) 2. The path of Atum where you absorb the qualities of the sun into yourself back to the primordial substance of your being. ( ... and at Sunset ) 3. The path of Khepri where you perform transformations to universalize your understanding ( ... and at midnight ) 4. The path of Hathor where you reside in perfect joy/bliss of 'unity'. .... ( and at Noon ) - of course they would be done in the natural progression ; dawn , noon, sunset and midnight . Also , as we discussed a few times in the past ; this cycle seems to break the sleep cycle at least once ; either dawn for those that stay up late and sleep late , or at midnight for those that go to sleep before then (of course it is possible to sleep after midnight and wake up { and stay awake } pre-dawn ) . ( there is a lot more about these realms and entering and passing through these 'doors' .... in the modern practice , but I dont want to diverge too much from your translations - good stuff, thanks ! ) This seemed like a practice ( that developed eventually ) to maintain mindfulness (of doing the practice ) during sleep ie. after a time one does not need an alarm, the sleeping body wakes itself up at midnight to do the practice .... then other things occur after that which seems to indicate practicing awareness during even deep sleep , which might suggest the practice will help maintain or help with an 'emergence' of a higher consciousness after death . The idea (of the modern practice ) is something like ... there is a 'blank circuit ' that can survive death termed (in this system ) 'The Immortal Osiris ' . If one goes about life unaware and ignoring this , the life experience does not 'imprint' on it but instead 'imprints ' on that 'which does not survive' death , and hence is lost in the afterlife transition . The key seems to be to 'imprint' the Immortal Osiris with the 'lessons of life' . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted Friday at 12:01 PM 14 hours ago, Nungali said: I keep looking for comparisons which are not in the text - any 'modern understanding ' . But you seem to be keeping within a more 'Egyptian understanding ' . For example , I want to know more about this use of the 'shadow' , but you seem to be keeping within ' Egyptian ' understanding . So I would like to hear a bit more on this concept of shadow and how it relates to the larger personal schemata ... from the Egyptian understanding and if you want , from your own as well . Yes I try to just let the text speak for itself without much in the way of my own or modern narrative. I just find it works better this way. I think someone like Crowley who was creating his own system (inspired in this case by Egypt) placed things within his own understanding - even creating new terms like Hadit and so on. I think this is perfectly valid if you have a high level of realization (which I don't). So I tend to be cautious. The Shadow is clearly very important to the Egyptians but while a lot is written about the Ba and the Ka, even though the shade or shadow turns up in all the underworld literature there is very little in the way of explanation. So I have to rely on insight and intuition. However I did find one interesting thing. In the Tomb of Ay (I think) the four entities, the Ka, the Ba, the heart and the Shadow are shown being held by the four Sons of Horus. So there is a correspondence there. And I am confident of a correspondence between the Sons of Horus and the four elements of Hermetic thought. This would suggest that the heart/body is related the Earth, the Ka to Water, the Ba to Fire and the Shadow to Air. Which fits with shwty (shadow) and Shu god of air. So I am leaning to consider the Shadow as a conceptual body or mental body perhaps. Quote Also the last section reminds me of that part of the practice I did (using the Stele ) at the four stations of the Sun : 1. The path of Re (Ra) is a path of seeing - of seeing the sunrise and realising one's identity with the sun. (Time of performance was at dawn ) 2. The path of Atum where you absorb the qualities of the sun into yourself back to the primordial substance of your being. ( ... and at Sunset ) 3. The path of Khepri where you perform transformations to universalize your understanding ( ... and at midnight ) 4. The path of Hathor where you reside in perfect joy/bliss of 'unity'. .... ( and at Noon ) - of course they would be done in the natural progression ; dawn , noon, sunset and midnight . Yes. Although the Egyptians had a very idiosyncratic view of the solar cycle. I think they would have expressed this as East - West, East - West again. Midnight and midday would be when North and South conjoined (like the uniting of heaven and earth). The midnight practice would have been the union of Osiris and Ra (Khepri) and the noon would be the winged disk. Quote Also , as we discussed a few times in the past ; this cycle seems to break the sleep cycle at least once ; either dawn for those that stay up late and sleep late , or at midnight for those that go to sleep before then (of course it is possible to sleep after midnight and wake up { and stay awake } pre-dawn ) . ( there is a lot more about these realms and entering and passing through these 'doors' .... in the modern practice , but I dont want to diverge too much from your translations - good stuff, thanks ! ) I used to do a daily dawn and sunset practice. Perhaps what happens at midnight is about deep dreamless sleep. Passing through doorways is a key Egyptian concept both in the Dwat and for entering and exiting the dwat and the horizons. Quote This seemed like a practice ( that developed eventually ) to maintain mindfulness (of doing the practice ) during sleep ie. after a time one does not need an alarm, the sleeping body wakes itself up at midnight to do the practice .... then other things occur after that which seems to indicate practicing awareness during even deep sleep , which might suggest the practice will help maintain or help with an 'emergence' of a higher consciousness after death . Absolutely yes. I wish I could do it! Quote The idea (of the modern practice ) is something like ... there is a 'blank circuit ' that can survive death termed (in this system ) 'The Immortal Osiris ' . If one goes about life unaware and ignoring this , the life experience does not 'imprint' on it but instead 'imprints ' on that 'which does not survive' death , and hence is lost in the afterlife transition . The key seems to be to 'imprint' the Immortal Osiris with the 'lessons of life' . That's interesting. Like avoiding the second death as the Egyptians would have it. In fact the text on the reverse Spell 30b will address this in part perhaps. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Friday at 09:22 PM Daobums has become my fav site again . ( Just after we were told 'it is over ' ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surya Posted Friday at 09:34 PM 11 minutes ago, Nungali said: Daobums has become my fav site again . ( Just after we were told 'it is over ' ) What other sites do you enjoy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted yesterday at 09:54 AM Reverse side - first part. (O) my heart of my mother [2 times], (O) my heart while I existed [C3] upon earth, do not stand against me as a witness, do not oppose me in [C4] in the tribunal, do not be hostile against me in the presence of the Great God, Lord of the West. [C5] Although I have united (myself) to the land (i.e. died) to the great western side of Heaven, may I flourish upon earth!" Some slight elements of mistranslation here but not too bad, I think. It starts by saying 'My heart, my mother' twice for emphasis. It is not saying 'heart of my mother' which makes no sense anyway - why would he have his mother's heart? Gross! He is addressing his heart as his 'mother'. So why? The heart, (ab), is the psycho-spiritual centre of a person. It is their mind, their volition and character. The heart is seen as issuing commands to the rest of the body, the limbs to move, the tongue to speak and so on. So while we moderns think of the brain as the centre of function for the Egyptians it was the heart. So in this sense it is volition. It is our mother because it makes us who we are. It determines our character, our likes and dislikes, things we hold dear, things we hate and so on. This makes sense really because we are gestated and born from our mothers, we rely on them to give us our physical body and even more than this it is recognised that when we are born, our pristine sterile foetus is covered in the birth canal with all the micro-organisms, gut bacteria and so on which we need to survive. Also in our childhood it is our mother who protects, guides and embraces us in our early years. So there is a lot to us beyond our conscious mind. A whole load of inherited 'stuff'. Then it says 'my heart when I existed on earth' i.e. in the land of the living. Here the word for heart is not 'ab' but 'h3ty' which means literally 'that which is in front (of our chests)' i.e. the physical heart. So the ab heart was our physical heart in life but lives on as a spiritual entity after death. In some versions of this Spell it says 'my heart through all my kheperu' i.e. through all my phases of being, or stages of life. Which indicates that it is the heart/mind which gives us continuity through life (or even lives?). Then the text goes on to talk about the famous Judgement Scene where the heart is weighed against the feather of ma'at. And it asks the heart not to speak against him at this time before the tribunal (or the 42 assessors who act as judges). So if the ab-heart is your mind (in effect) why would it speak against you? For speaking against you leads to the dreaded 'second death' of final extinction. This seems odd doesn't it? The only answer as far as I can see, is that the heart/mind was understood to include all the subconscious mood, feelings, memories, thoughts and so on which we have. All the baggage which we carry with us. As we live we hope that we have done good things but to be honest the picture is mixed isn't it. We have a conscience with which we need to be reconciled. There was a close association between the heart and the tongue. The heart was said to think about what to do and then issue instructions through the tongue. So the voice, what is spoken reflects what is in the heart. This is why those that get through the judgement are called 'true of voice' which is usually translated as justified. Although I have united (myself) to the land (i.e. died) to the great western side of Heaven, may I flourish upon earth! Or better 'United with the ground and under the great Western sky, I flourish on earth.' This is the aspiration to live after death. Both united with the ground and the West are images of being dead. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 22 hours ago On 10/18/2025 at 8:34 AM, Surya said: What other sites do you enjoy? If you meant forums and not sites ... none ... they drop away one by one like autumn leaves that once were young Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 22 hours ago (edited) 12 hours ago, Apech said: Reverse side - first part. (O) my heart of my mother [2 times], (O) my heart while I existed [C3] upon earth, do not stand against me as a witness, do not oppose me in [C4] in the tribunal, do not be hostile against me in the presence of the Great God, Lord of the West. [C5] Although I have united (myself) to the land (i.e. died) to the great western side of Heaven, may I flourish upon earth!" Some slight elements of mistranslation here but not too bad, I think. It starts by saying 'My heart, my mother' twice for emphasis. It is not saying 'heart of my mother' which makes no sense anyway - why would he have his mother's heart? Gross! He is addressing his heart as his 'mother'. So why? The heart, (ab), is the psycho-spiritual centre of a person. It is their mind, their volition and character. The heart is seen as issuing commands to the rest of the body, the limbs to move, the tongue to speak and so on. So while we moderns think of the brain as the centre of function for the Egyptians it was the heart. So in this sense it is volition. It is our mother because it makes us who we are. It determines our character, our likes and dislikes, things we hold dear, things we hate and so on. This makes sense really because we are gestated and born from our mothers, we rely on them to give us our physical body and even more than this it is recognised that when we are born, our pristine sterile foetus is covered in the birth canal with all the micro-organisms, gut bacteria and so on which we need to survive. Also in our childhood it is our mother who protects, guides and embraces us in our early years. So there is a lot to us beyond our conscious mind. A whole load of inherited 'stuff'. Then it says 'my heart when I existed on earth' i.e. in the land of the living. Here the word for heart is not 'ab' but 'h3ty' which means literally 'that which is in front (of our chests)' i.e. the physical heart. So the ab heart was our physical heart in life but lives on as a spiritual entity after death. In some versions of this Spell it says 'my heart through all my kheperu' i.e. through all my phases of being, or stages of life. Which indicates that it is the heart/mind which gives us continuity through life (or even lives?). Then the text goes on to talk about the famous Judgement Scene where the heart is weighed against the feather of ma'at. And it asks the heart not to speak against him at this time before the tribunal (or the 42 assessors who act as judges). So if the ab-heart is your mind (in effect) why would it speak against you? For speaking against you leads to the dreaded 'second death' of final extinction. This seems odd doesn't it? The only answer as far as I can see, is that the heart/mind was understood to include all the subconscious mood, feelings, memories, thoughts and so on which we have. All the baggage which we carry with us. As we live we hope that we have done good things but to be honest the picture is mixed isn't it. We have a conscience with which we need to be reconciled. There was a close association between the heart and the tongue. The heart was said to think about what to do and then issue instructions through the tongue. So the voice, what is spoken reflects what is in the heart. This is why those that get through the judgement are called 'true of voice' which is usually translated as justified. Although I have united (myself) to the land (i.e. died) to the great western side of Heaven, may I flourish upon earth! Or better 'United with the ground and under the great Western sky, I flourish on earth.' This is the aspiration to live after death. Both united with the ground and the West are images of being dead. yes, that '' dont dob me in at the judgement hall '' idea is strange , but you offer an interesting insight . The 'ab' seems to be the seat of the 'Immortal Osiris ' ( that part of the psyche that survives death ) ? Then again if it is the ab that survives death .... it now appears it carries a lot of dross with it that either needs to be silenced or purified ? I have always thought the destruction of the 'heavy heart' was a bit over the top ? I used to interpret that as 'try again ' ... back for another attempt / incarnation . But perhaps a LOT of the psyche does survive death ..... into the 'hall of judgement ' (or 'adjustment ' as Crowley changed the relevant Tarot trump title to ; Justice > Adjustment ) and it is but the Ab that 'goes on' beyond this (or is cast down or returns ) . This might make the 'hall of adjustments ' and the 'purging ' of the heart the 2nd death .... then the 2nd life begins . Then there would be a 3rd 'death' ... through the 'gate of Nut ' to become an 'immortal star ' ? I think this was originally only the King's privileged , then those close to him and then eventually every person's (in some way ) ? I cant see from my modern perspective that King Charlie is the only one that is 'going to make it ' . . Edited 22 hours ago by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted 9 hours ago 12 hours ago, Nungali said: yes, that '' dont dob me in at the judgement hall '' idea is strange , but you offer an interesting insight . The 'ab' seems to be the seat of the 'Immortal Osiris ' ( that part of the psyche that survives death ) ? Then again if it is the ab that survives death .... it now appears it carries a lot of dross with it that either needs to be silenced or purified ? I have always thought the destruction of the 'heavy heart' was a bit over the top ? I used to interpret that as 'try again ' ... back for another attempt / incarnation . But perhaps a LOT of the psyche does survive death ..... into the 'hall of judgement ' (or 'adjustment ' as Crowley changed the relevant Tarot trump title to ; Justice > Adjustment ) and it is but the Ab that 'goes on' beyond this (or is cast down or returns ) . This might make the 'hall of adjustments ' and the 'purging ' of the heart the 2nd death .... then the 2nd life begins . Then there would be a 3rd 'death' ... through the 'gate of Nut ' to become an 'immortal star ' ? I think this was originally only the King's privileged , then those close to him and then eventually every person's (in some way ) ? I cant see from my modern perspective that King Charlie is the only one that is 'going to make it ' . . I should have mentioned that in the Judgement Hall 'you' are both your heart and Osiris! So actually you are judging yourself! Or you could say your higher self is judging your ordinary self? Maybe. I see being 'true of voice' being about self consistency. So you have what you intuitively know to be good, your own ethos if you like, and you measure yourself against it. It is a moral position but it's not about just obeying an external code. Because when you get to this in the underworld it is just you looking at you and asking 'did I measure up or was I shit?' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SodaChanh Posted 9 hours ago On 16.10.2025 at 11:59 PM, Nungali said: 1. The path of Re (Ra) is a path of seeing - of seeing the sunrise and realising one's identity with the sun. (Time of performance was at dawn ) 2. The path of Atum where you absorb the qualities of the sun into yourself back to the primordial substance of your being. ( ... and at Sunset ) 3. The path of Khepri where you perform transformations to universalize your understanding ( ... and at midnight ) 4. The path of Hathor where you reside in perfect joy/bliss of 'unity'. .... ( and at Noon Sounds like a mix of Dzogchen and Daoist practice? 1. Tögal 2. Absorb jing from sun 3.? 4. Abiding in awareness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jenn Posted 5 hours ago 4 hours ago, Apech said: I see being 'true of voice' being about self consistency. So you have what you intuitively know to be good, your own ethos if you like, and you measure yourself against it. It is a moral position but it's not about just obeying an external code. Because when you get to this in the underworld it is just you looking at you and asking 'did I measure up or was I shit?' To thine own self be true. Not Christian, but that popped into my head reading this. I am finding this series on the stele of revealing extremely fascinating, thanks for sharing it! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites