Antares Posted Saturday at 05:15 PM On 02.09.2025 at 4:04 PM, Antares said: Emotions are part of the ego. This is also related to what is called virtue - there are five positive and five negative qualities, there is Yin and Yang, depending on which predominates. But there are post-heaven and pre-heaven Yin and Yang, the question is how to transform one into the other and to produce One Yang On 02.09.2025 at 7:33 PM, Forestgreen said: I would also translate De to something else than the concept of the five virtues in this context. DaoDe, not another group of wuxing correllates that chinese culture is so fond of. What you think about this concept? (taken from The inner teachings of Taoism. Chang Po-Tuan commentary by -- Cleary Thomas ) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted Saturday at 05:24 PM (edited) 12 minutes ago, Antares said: there is Yin and Yang, depending on which predominates I mean that in this context people have a lot of negative Yin qi which corrupts the overall balance and post heaven state of heart takes over the pre heaven one. Also we lose Ming throughout the day to day life "process". This affects our state of heart- mind as well. Also we have blockages due to many sorts of psychosomatic traumas in the past All stated above is just my understanding of course Edited Saturday at 05:30 PM by Antares 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Sunday at 07:27 AM 14 hours ago, Antares said: What you think about this concept? I would say that the Confusian tradition and the five elements school have been so enbedded in the Chinese worldview that they influence other traditions. This has been going on for so long, that most Chinese probably cannot separate them. The result is a barrier to understanding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Sunday at 07:30 AM 14 hours ago, Antares said: post heaven state of heart takes over the pre heaven one. In my practice, this happens because we habitually interpret the world through the five senses. The seven refined nine reversed elixir focus on this, and everything else follows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DynamicEquilibrium Posted Sunday at 07:56 AM 9 minutes ago, Forestgreen said: I would say that the Confusian tradition and the five elements school have been so enbedded in the Chinese worldview that they influence other traditions. This has been going on for so long, that most Chinese probably cannot separate them. The result is a barrier to understanding. Yinyang five elements symbolic system precedes schools or traditions interpreting it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krenx Posted Sunday at 08:11 AM Those virtues are too vague to be applicable. It is easy to see how something like "justice" for example can easily be corrupted with greed and anger, and result in murder. Unless there is a deep doctrine and refined view around those virtues mentioned, it isn't very helpful. That being said, virtue is very important for the process of refining yin yang energies in the path of the dao. The 5 elements are basically permutations of yin yang, that are a little more tangible to our senses, and gives us more solid handles and levers that practitioners can use to balance and stabilize their energies to refine it towards the dao. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Sunday at 09:11 AM 1 hour ago, DynamicEquilibrium said: Yinyang five elements symbolic system precedes schools or traditions interpreting it. Said schools added correllations, expanding the ancient four around a center model until it became the correllation tables we see today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DynamicEquilibrium Posted Sunday at 02:34 PM 5 hours ago, Forestgreen said: Said schools added correllations, expanding the ancient four around a center model until it became the correllation tables we see today. Yes, nearly impossible to apprehend the phenomenas recorded within this symbolic system through correlations or conceptual representations, yet by defining clearly enough the content of the term 'justice' for instance, we may discover something very accurate about some general psycho-behavioural natures of Metal . There may have little to no differences in senses organs between individuals, but there are as many perceptuals and cognitives worlds as there are human beings on the Earth. Same senses organs and channels, but different ways of seeing, looking, hearing, listening... thinking, understanding etc. Can the cultivation of 'virtue' be really started without defining individual pre-heaven differences first ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Sunday at 06:55 PM (edited) 4 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said: Can the cultivation of 'virtue' be really started without defining individual pre-heaven differences first ? That would depend on how "de" is translated. It seems like the term developed just like "virtus" did. In my practice, the answer is yes. Most likely, someone else will say no, and because of differences in traditions we will both be right. I might add (great post btw), that what you wrote about the senses leading to different worlds is central to the practice. This, not a lower dantian full with whatever. So we reverse it, so we can go back ("ni") to the same world. Reality. Edited Sunday at 07:07 PM by Forestgreen Added stuff. Did I say great post? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Sunday at 07:02 PM 4 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said: yet by defining clearly enough the content of the term 'justice' for instance, we may discover something very accurate about some general psycho-behavioural natures of Metal . Yes, I agree. I just see no reason to add this in the practice of neidan, except that it is useful to not follow ones desires (by which many virtous behaviours will appear by themselves, ziran, very daoist). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sahaja Posted Sunday at 07:11 PM My understanding is that a more accurate name for the emotion joy is something like the word excitation. To me joy is different, it’s part of the ziran virtues, particularly sympathetic and empathetic joy, joy without cause, naturally arising from following the path. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted Sunday at 07:16 PM 3 minutes ago, Sahaja said: My understanding is that a more accurate name for the emotion joy is something like the word excitation. To me joy is different, it’s part of the ziran virtues, particularly sympathetic and empathetic joy, joy without cause, naturally arising from following the path. Two terms for Joy, xi and le. Elation and Joy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sahaja Posted Monday at 02:25 PM Elation works for me - part of the definition of elation is that it is extreme happiness/excitement that can lead to being light headed. Like little children running and playing…full of heart energy. Eventually these sounds of children laughing and yelling turn to a child crying for their mother when they fall and hurt themselves - fear.(fire then water) The important thing about this heart energy excitement/elation is that it can overwhelm judgement and discernment (child excited to play running around without care then hurts himself because lack of discernment of risk). I think this fits better with the other emotions listed and can apply to adults as well who can be a little lacking in discernment and can make mistakes when they get too excited/elated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DynamicEquilibrium Posted Monday at 04:26 PM (edited) 21 hours ago, Forestgreen said: That would depend on how "de" is translated. It seems like the term developed just like "virtus" did. Indeed ! From the standpoint of the natural principles as a 'linguistic system', the meaning of 'De' could be totaly different from the one given through our very limited human languages, and since language is a determining factor in the formation of an individual's conceptual world, it makes the 'escape game' from our own subjective bias a triple difficulty, or more, but in the movie Matrix they can escape from the telephone, so its all good 😋 Edited Monday at 04:40 PM by DynamicEquilibrium Share this post Link to post Share on other sites