husbands must love wive as themselves, vedic sanskrit texts?

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

One problem with quoting and attribution is that English is very imprecise.  The same word can mean dozens or even hundreds of subtly different things, and some words are so abstract that their meaning seems to float off into infinity.  In English, it is quite easy to equivocate on someone's meaning, or perhaps just misunderstand.  I am personally of the opinion, however, that words are meaningless (and the fact that they can be coherently generated through AI seems to confirm my understanding), that they carry no more significance than the song of a garden bird, the harmonic relationship of one utterance to one-another being their only meaning in logic and understanding.  We can build computer tools to better understand and simulate that harmony, but it cant scratch the surface of the feeling of gliding seamlessly on rollerskis across a newly asphalted biking path (or tai chi, or whatever).  The wind against my body seems to be the only true reality. 

 

But you did rather well there  ^   !   

I even started to feel the gliding floating feeling ( without all the little bumps ) as if I WAS cruising along new asphalted bike path .... and yes it is very similar to the gliding feeling I would have when walking home at night from aikido training   .      

[Sherman Krebbs]

12 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I´d like to stick up for the power of words, those pesky amalgamations of letters so often maligned in spiritual circles.  Words can indeed convey the feeling of "wind against my body" in such a way that another person understands and feels, at least to some imperfect extent, your experience.  There are a few tricks to using words in this way -- metaphor, image, syntactic symbolism, the aural music of language.  You can´t just say "it was windy" and hope for the best.  A true word artist can structure a sentence so that the various phrases mirror the experience of being out in the wind vividly.  

 

When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded. Think Subhuti, isn't it even more obvious that we should also give up our conceptions of non-existent things?

 

I dont know if this is a good translation or not, but this notion has stuck in my head for a long time. This is what the diamond sutra says about words (or at least the concepts and ideas they portray).  Maybe I used too strong a word :  ), thought words are not truth. The truth is in the wind.  

[Sherman Krebbs]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

But you did rather well there  ^   !   

I even started to feel the gliding floating feeling ( without all the little bumps ) as if I WAS cruising along new asphalted bike path .... and yes it is very similar to the gliding feeling I would have when walking home at night from aikido training 

 

Isn't it strange how I can convey that feeling to you.  My experience -> verbal utterances in my mind -> written words ->... - > ...->undersea cables->... ->  -> your computer screen - > your eyes -> you verbally uttering the words in your mind -> you abstracting the feeling.  We can take out a lot of steps if we just discuss in person.  But ultimately its me conveying my experience to you though verbal utterances.  But your abstraction of the experience is not the experience.  You have to go out and do it to have the experience.  and as much as you read about it or watch videos of it on youtube, that does not substitute for the experience itself (yet I see everyone glued to their phones everywhere I go, even at the beach.) 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

13 hours ago, stirling said:

The wind on your body can be the Dao, or it can be Hurricane Katrina... a non-duality, OR a duality, both existing in the same moment. In order to communicate with words we must assume the garb of separate beings, and exchange the symbolic, dualistic, mirage of language. Some would never wish to do that and exist in silence, but here we are instead.

 

You replied to me, with no great hardship, using an exact quote you wanted to reply to. Thank you. I have also quoted you with your actual words. If I am polite I might ask you for some clarity, when I am not sure I understand what you have said. You might reasonably expect me to reply to your actual words too. What I am suggesting my earlier post is that we ALL offer the courtesy of replying with a quote from the person we wish address rather than a personally constructed, paraphrased, or even purposely twisted response. I would also hope that the intention is to assume the best about others, rather than instantly make up our minds about the nature of what has been said by them.  _/\_

 

Not everyone can be such skilled, understanding and kind written communicators as yourself, stirling :  ).  I am not exactly sure what I meant in my post, though on the wind thing, I was at my cabin last week alone, and as I rode my bike to the well down a hill, it occurred to me that that my movement through the air was the only thing that mattered.  I then sat in the wind on a rock on the beach, and felt that the wind (the currents in the air and those subtly felt) was the only real and meaningful phenomenon connecting me to the universe. Hard to put into words, but now I have this weird obsession about the wind :  )     

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

Isn't it strange how I can convey that feeling to you.  My experience -> verbal utterances in my mind -> written words ->... - > ...->undersea cables->... ->  -> your computer screen - > your eyes -> you verbally uttering the words in your mind -> you abstracting the feeling.  We can take out a lot of steps if we just discuss in person.  But ultimately its me conveying my experience to you though verbal utterances.  But your abstraction of the experience is not the experience.  You have to go out and do it to have the experience.  and as much as you read about it or watch videos of it on youtube, that does not substitute for the experience itself (yet I see everyone glued to their phones everywhere I go, even at the beach.) 

 

 

 

You are preaching to the 'unconverted' here . 

 

But I have to contest some of the above  as I already have had the experience   and what I have already experienced I related to your words ... not that I was saying that reading your words gave me the experience , no ,  it is an assumed empathy , I assume you had  a similar experience  to what I already had  and I felt in conveyed in the words .  

 

I agree with you about phones though .... a classic scene from years back .... everyone in a crowd standing up to see some significant part of the event , a few years later, same event , at a crucial part its a sea of hands going up with phones in them . I never even took that many old school photographs in pre smart phone days .....  I got eyes a brain and a memory thanks    

 

I lost a good friend  and GF to phones ......  she could not seem to get off her phone , even playing  simple puzzle games on it  .   I decided she could stay at her place and do that ,  now  when I go away on a trip or a little holiday  , I go by myself , instead of taking along someone who has their head buried in a phone all day  . 

 

And now I am virtually a hermit , an unknown , as I still refuse to have anything to do with social media .  NO one knows me as I don't have an existence in 'reality' .... 15 years ago, I could walk down the street in another town and people would know who I was  ( due to vvarious work I did in alternative community , festivals, pagan groups, indigenous gatherings ..... I don't even get invited to indigenous gatherings anymore ..... wanna learn about a supposedly 60,000 year old culture ?   Sorry , all arrangements, programs and attendances are now organized through face book !  

 

what a fuck up ! 

 

and so many other things .... martial arts , kids didn't want to spend two weeks training ... what for ?  I can do all that 'gaming '  .  

 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

27 minutes ago, Nungali said:

But I have to contest some of the above  as I already have had the experience   and what I have already experienced I related to your words ... not that I was saying that reading your words gave me the experience , no ,  it is an assumed empathy , I assume you had  a similar experience  to what I already had  and I felt in conveyed in the words . 

 

Empathy.  I like that.  So when I communicate thoughts to you, and you to me, there is a connection created between us, an empathy that goes deeper than the words themselves.  so maybe its not the words that matter, but the connection  (says me sitting in my office staring at a lighted screen).  How pleasant and rewarding is it to just shoot the breeze with someone over a cup of coffee.