Has anyone tried the course on ancientmasters.org?

[BigSkyDiamond]

23 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

in what ways might neigong be incompatible with therapy ?

i am wondering what the contra-indications might be.

 

 

my question is a general one regarding nei gong in general.

not related to any specific teacher or individual school of nei gong.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:19 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[durian tree]

45 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

my question is a general one regarding nei gong in general.

not related to any specific teacher or individual school of nei gong.

 

 

Let's say hypothetically you're doing a type of therapy that involves entering into intense altered states of consciousness through whatever means, then talking it out. Could be breathwork, guided meditation, EMDR, entheogens, or whatever else. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that neigong and similar practices involve directly tinkering with your body and mind in their function and operation. Stuff like that will always run the risk of causing serious physical and mental health complications. Adding in a state of relative loss of control compounds that potential for harm. I'm sure it can also impact qi development depending on who you ask. Whether being in a therapeutic setting matters (or whether these things matter at all in general) is up to the teacher.

Edited yesterday at 12:04 AM by durian tree

[stirling]

34 minutes ago, durian tree said:

Let's say hypothetically you're doing a type of therapy that involves entering into intense altered states of consciousness through whatever means, then talking it out. Could be breathwork, guided meditation, EMDR, entheogens, or whatever else. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that neigong and similar practices involve directly tinkering with your body and mind in their function and operation. Stuff like that will always run the risk of causing serious physical and mental health complications. Adding in a state of relative loss of control compounds that potential for harm. I'm sure it can also impact qi development depending on who you ask. Whether being in a therapeutic setting matters (or whether these things matter at all in general) is up to the teacher.

 

I'll just say that combining entheogens, or medically treatable mental illness with meditation (especially on retreat) is asking for trouble and should be carefully monitored by a mental health professional. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

i had to look up "entheogens"

= psychoactive substances

 

my own training (starting way back when 35 years ago with basic shamanic journey) across all modalities has always been avoid psychotropics completely.  Because it is (a) asking for trouble, (b) causes irreperable damage to the etheric field, (c) not worth the risk, results can be obtained in a safer manner.  Several teachers i have had over the decades have this as a condition of being accepted to train with them.

 

Edited yesterday at 03:21 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[kakapo]

19 hours ago, durian tree said:

Could you point me to where the link is? Their website says you have to pay to get onto the server.

 

Got a link to them saying this?

 

I get that people in this thread have made it clear they're not interested in listening. I'm still open to a conversation of some kind.

 

 

[durian tree]

3 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

 

While similar in level of confidence and way of speaking, I don't think this dude is affiliated with the site I linked? He stopped posting years before either of the guys who run the site showed up here and talks about much more unhinged stuff than they ever do.

 

Funny thread, through.

[stirling]

15 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

i had to look up "entheogens"

= psychoactive substances

 

my own training (starting way back when 35 years ago with basic shamanic journey) across all modalities has always been avoid psychotropics completely.  Because it is (a) asking for trouble, (b) causes irreperable damage to the etheric field, (c) not worth the risk, results can be obtained in a safer manner.  Several teachers i have had over the decades have this as a condition of being accepted to train with them.

 

Aren't entheogens a fairly common cornerstone to shamanic ritual? They were in my experience, but I was admittedly only ever a dabbler.

 

I know a couple of people who have had entheogens as part of their "path" or even the moment of illumination, myself included. While it wasn't part of the moment when understanding dawned for me, it was part of the story.  I wouldn't discount it entirely, myself.

 

These substances CAN be quite beneficial in softening or even removing conceptual concretions of the "self" when there are experiences of "unity"/no-self or other/etc. The danger they pose is primarily to those who already have intense grasping to "self" or underdeveloped and weak "self" to begin with, like those with more profound mental health issues such as schizophrenia. Of course, these substances can be unpredictable and have mixed success without some screening and supervision, and aren't really necessary in most cases.

 

Whatever method or lack thereof that works for one person very likely won't work for another. It can happen in countless ways - for some there will be the sound of a pebble on a pot, for others it might happen while in a dentist's waiting room, or while skydiving, or even after ingesting Lysergic acid diethylamide. Most are never going to worry, or need to worry, about abstract conceptual underpinnings as they are entirely dualistic in nature and have no real bearing on the complete realization. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

The danger they pose is primarily to those who

 

The danger they pose is to anyone.  to everyone.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

11 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

The danger they pose is to anyone.  to everyone.

 

Not really any more dangerous that going on a meditation retreat or working with the most direct practices. Real, transformative spiritual practice digs up our most protected and ancient pain, attachment, aversion, and leads to a "death" of sorts - it inherently includes risk, and inevitably creates some difficulties for the practitioner. Realization necessarily breaks all of our closely held beliefs about who "we" are what "reality" is, any clinging to what you thought was "true" or "real" has to be let go of.

[BigSkyDiamond]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

Not really any more dangerous that going on a meditation retreat 

 

to say that psychoactive substances are no more dangerous than meditation

is a red flag.   a big one.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[durian tree]

38 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

to say that psychoactive substances are no more dangerous than meditation

is a red flag.   a big one.

 

They said meditation retreat, not meditation in general. Psychedelics have their place. They can be incredibly useful if taken mindfully, especially with the guidance of someone who knows what they're doing. Intense retreats are not too different. Anyone that's predisposed to psychosis shouldn't do either of them. Anyone who's interested in spiritual growth/exploration/healing can derive benefit from either of them. These huge sweeping "all psychoactive substances are bad" statements are a product of US war on drugs propaganda.

 

All that being said, they're still not compatible with every practice, which is why it's important to ask your teacher.

[stirling]

17 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

to say that psychoactive substances are no more dangerous than meditation

is a red flag.   a big one.

 

What I said was:

 

Quote

Not really any more dangerous that going on a meditation retreat or working with the most direct practices. - Stirling

 

...but yes, meditation itself, even outside of retreat can be dangerous from a mental health perspective. Meditation in therapeutic dosages WILL dig up your obscurations, emotional/psychological damage and much more. In fact, meditation IS psychedelic. You will see visions, have time distortions, unitive experiences and much more. In small doses it can make you more calm and less reactive, but in doses intended to be transformative it can cause significant cognitive dissonance at the very least. It isn't a bug, it is a feature. 

 

Retreats are where the rubber meets the road.  As a meditator of over 30 years, with many retreats under my belt I have witnessed many people spontaneously burst into tears next to me as great traumas have arisen and often resolved, have to leave the retreat, or even have realizations.

 

To learn more about the dangers of meditation and retreats some judicious reading here might illuminate:

 

https://www.cheetahhouse.org/

 

I would appreciate it greatly if you could please stop assuming there is some malicious motive or intent in my posts. If you would like to address your concerns I would be happy to speak to you directly via messaging. _/\_

[BigSkyDiamond]

views, practices, and beliefs are under discussion.

not individual people posting.

 

Edited 15 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

32 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

views, practices, and beliefs are under discussion.

not individual people posting.

 

Yes, please.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

The danger they pose is to anyone.  to everyone.

 

 

The human experience across time and location does not support that one bit ! 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Not really any more dangerous that going on a meditation retreat or working with the most direct practices. Real, transformative spiritual practice digs up our most protected and ancient pain, attachment, aversion, and leads to a "death" of sorts - it inherently includes risk, and inevitably creates some difficulties for the practitioner. Realization necessarily breaks all of our closely held beliefs about who "we" are what "reality" is, any clinging to what you thought was "true" or "real" has to be let go of.

 

I have witnessed ( and tried to help in the recovery )  of a woman , who had a 'psychiatric disturbance' ' - she would smoke some strong weed occasionally and that could make things a little different .

 

Then she went to an Osho awareness retreat thingo  ... and came back a fractured disturbed mess ... it happened during the retreat and they asked her to leave , with no support or back up for what had been 'released' . 

 

And what about  the Naga Sadhus  ?     That is a 'not  valid'    spiritual tradition ? 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

views, practices, and beliefs are under discussion.

not individual people posting.

 

 

You don't get to decide what we choose to discuss . 

 

And considering some of the things you yourself have written  since arriving -   it is rather  the hypocritical  statement  !   

[kakapo]

10 hours ago, durian tree said:

While similar in level of confidence and way of speaking, I don't think this dude is affiliated with the site I linked? He stopped posting years before either of the guys who run the site showed up here and talks about much more unhinged stuff than they ever do.

 

Funny thread, through.

 

100% same guy, new name.

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by kakapo

[durian tree]

2 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

100% same guy, new name.

 

 

Wow, pretty damning of him to not even slightly deny that he's the same dude.

Do you have links to the original post(s) where he makes these claims, though?

Edited 5 hours ago by durian tree

[durian tree]

On further reading and contemplation, I don't have any real reason to believe these guys are legit. It just seems kind of insane to me to fabricate an elaborate life story and entire library of magic theory articles with matching personae on this forum all to run an expensive online magic school with nonexistent to bad PR strategy while visciously insulting anyone who says anything that contradicts their worldview. If it's a deliberate scam, it's the least effective one I've ever seen. It's either pure delusion or one in a billion hidden knowledge with no in-between. The fact that they seem to be purely interested in powers is also a huge red flag to me. At best, it's a material world that we have no means of perceiving that they can supposedly experience through their system.

 

All that being said, I'm quite curious to try it for the sake of trying it and being able to report back on what exactly learning from them is like. It would make for good content for others if nothing else and could serve as a warning if it's nonsense. At the same time, that's a lot of money for possibly no gain.

Edited 5 hours ago by durian tree

[stirling]

32 minutes ago, durian tree said:

On further reading and contemplation, I don't have any real reason to believe these guys are legit. It just seems kind of insane to me to fabricate an elaborate life story and entire library of magic theory articles with matching personae on this forum all to run an expensive online magic school with nonexistent to bad PR strategy while visciously insulting anyone who says anything that contradicts their worldview. If it's a deliberate scam, it's the least effective one I've ever seen. It's either pure delusion or one in a billion hidden knowledge with no in-between. The fact that they seem to be purely interested in powers is also a huge red flag to me. At best, it's a material world that we have no means of perceiving that they can supposedly experience through their system.

 

All that being said, I'm quite curious to try it for the sake of trying it and being able to report back on what exactly learning from them is like. It would make for good content for others if nothing else and could serve as a warning if it's nonsense. At the same time, that's a lot of money for possibly no gain.

.., again, what do you really want to achieve? There are tried and true paths for this kind of knowledge.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

44 minutes ago, durian tree said:

On further reading and contemplation, I don't have any real reason to believe these guys are legit. It just seems kind of insane to me to fabricate an elaborate life story and entire library of magic theory articles with matching personae on this forum all to run an expensive online magic school with nonexistent to bad PR strategy while visciously insulting anyone who says anything that contradicts their worldview. If it's a deliberate scam, it's the least effective one I've ever seen. It's either pure delusion or one in a billion hidden knowledge with no in-between. The fact that they seem to be purely interested in powers is also a huge red flag to me. At best, it's a material world that we have no means of perceiving that they can supposedly experience through their system.

 

All that being said, I'm quite curious to try it for the sake of trying it and being able to report back on what exactly learning from them is like. It would make for good content for others if nothing else and could serve as a warning if it's nonsense. At the same time, that's a lot of money for possibly no gain.

The only way to find out is to try for yourself

[durian tree]

37 minutes ago, stirling said:

.., again, what do you really want to achieve? There are tried and true paths for this kind of knowledge.

I suppose I'm just seeking novelty beyond anything else at this point. I'm looking to experience (spiritually) what's available, and this pushes the boundaries of anything I've heard of. I know it's likely nonsense. I'm just curious, like I said.

 

People will say you should just pick a path and stick to it, and they're right. I fully recognize that this is not how spirituality generally works. I have practices that I already do that work well for me. What I'm doing here is a deliberate exercise in foolishness. If it's real, I get to learn something useful and reassess. If it's fake (likely), I have an awesome story that nobody else has ever documented.

Edited 4 hours ago by durian tree

[durian tree]

Damn, rereading this whole thread it's really clear how far up my own ass my head is lately. This upcoming Vipassana retreat is gonna be good for me.