NorthWide Posted July 16 Ok. Before Isreal Givens: 1. Job wrote the Divine Husbandman (farmer) text, later incorporated into The Materia Medica. Reason: The only name reference is Yi Yi Ren (Job's Tears). 2. The chinese language itself has Biblical perspectives within it. I get the distinct impression that Job had to be asian and it makes sense that he wrote Divine Farmer: "I will die in my nest and the dust will multiply my days."-Job 29:18? So Jesus would be the third time, not the second attempt. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted July 17 18th-century European botanists named this Asian plant after the Bible’s Job due to its tear-shaped seeds. It was their poetic way to associate the shape of the seeds with tears, and tears with Job's suffering. The name 薏苡 (Yìyǐ) has no link to the biblical Job — it’s a phonetic approximation of the plant’s ancient Chinese name. The Divine Husbandman (神农 Shénnóng) is attributed in authorship to a group of gods prominent in polytheistic ancient Chinese culture. It is credited with introducing agriculture, herbal medicine, and the use of the plow to early Chinese civilization. Job, who lived at least 1500 years later, couldn't have written this text without the aid of a time machine. Besides, he was a wealthy herdsman (Job 1:3) and had nothing to do with agriculture, herbal medicine, and the use of the plow. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 17 So nice of you to fulfill his request ! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NorthWide Posted July 21 (edited) On 7/16/2025 at 9:05 PM, Taomeow said: 18th-century European botanists named this Asian plant after the Bible’s Job due to its tear-shaped seeds. It was their poetic way to associate the shape of the seeds with tears, and tears with Job's suffering. The name 薏苡 (Yìyǐ) has no link to the biblical Job — it’s a phonetic approximation of the plant’s ancient Chinese name. The Divine Husbandman (神农 Shénnóng) is attributed in authorship to a group of gods prominent in polytheistic ancient Chinese culture. It is credited with introducing agriculture, herbal medicine, and the use of the plow to early Chinese civilization. Job, who lived at least 1500 years later, couldn't have written this text without the aid of a time machine. Besides, he was a wealthy herdsman (Job 1:3) and had nothing to do with agriculture, herbal medicine, and the use of the plow. In this case, yes, she is right. Job's Speeches in Job: Spoiler Job’s Speeches: Job speaks in several chapters: 3, 6–7, 9–10, 12–14, 16–17, 19, 21, 23–24, 26–31, 40:3–5, and 42:1–6. I’ll focus on these to identify any references to planting. Key Terms: Using Strong’s Concordance, I’ll look for Hebrew words related to planting, such as: זָרַע (zara‘, Strong’s H2232): To sow or plant. נָטַע (nata‘, Strong’s H5193): To plant or set (e.g., a tree or vine). שָׁתַל (shathal, Strong’s H8362): To transplant or plant. Related terms like “seed” (זֶרַע, zera‘, H2233), “root” (שֹׁרֶשׁ, shoresh, H8328), or “grow” (e.g., צָמַח, tsamach, H6779) may also appear in agricultural metaphors. Context: I’ll check for both literal (e.g., farming) and metaphorical (e.g., planting as a symbol of establishing or creating) references. Step 2: Analysis of Job’s Speeches I’ll review Job’s speeches for any explicit or implied references to planting, using the NASB and Strong’s Concordance to clarify the Hebrew terms. Job 3 Job curses the day of his birth, expressing despair. No references to planting or agriculture appear. Key imagery includes darkness (H2822, choshek) and death, not cultivation. Job 6–7 Job laments his suffering and responds to Eliphaz. In 6:15–18, he compares his friends to a wadi (stream) that dries up, but this is about water, not planting. No agricultural terms like zara‘ or nata‘ appear. Job 9–10 Job speaks of God’s power and his own helplessness. In 9:22–24, he discusses the earth given to the wicked, but there’s no mention of planting. In 10:8–12, Job describes God forming him (e.g., “made,” עָשָׂה, asah, H6213), but this is about human creation, not planting. Job 12–14 Job 12: Job describes God’s sovereignty over creation (e.g., 12:7–10, animals and earth). No planting imagery appears. Job 13: Focuses on Job’s defense and desire to argue with God. No agricultural references. Job 14: This chapter contains plant-related imagery, so let’s examine it closely: Job 14:7–9: “For there is hope for a tree when it is cut down, that it will sprout again, and its shoots will not fail. Though its roots grow old in the ground and its stump dies in the dry soil, at the scent of water it will flourish and put forth sprigs like a plant.” Sprout (חָלַף, chalaph, H2498): To sprout, renew, or change, not planting but regrowth. Shoots (יֹנֶקֶת, yoneqeth, H3127): Young shoots or branches, as in Job 8:16. Roots (שֹׁרֶשׁ, shoresh, H8328): Root, as in Job 8:17. Flourish (פָּרַח, parach, H6524): To bud or blossom. Plant (לָטִיָּה, latiyyah, derived from nata‘, H5193): This is the closest reference to planting, but it describes the tree’s regrowth “like a plant,” not Job planting something. Implication: Job uses a metaphor of a tree’s natural regrowth after being cut, not an act of planting. He contrasts this with human mortality (14:10–12), implying humans don’t revive like trees. No explicit mention of Job planting anything. Job 16–17 Job describes his suffering and God’s attacks. In 16:12–13, he uses imagery of being shattered or pierced, but no planting or agricultural terms appear. Job 19 Job speaks of his alienation and God’s wrath. In 19:10, he says, “He breaks me down on every side, and I am gone; and He has uprooted my hope like a tree.” Uprooted (נָסַע, nasa‘, H5265): To pull up or uproot, not plant. Tree (עֵץ, ets, H6086): A tree, symbolizing Job’s hope. Implication: This is the opposite of planting—Job describes his hope being torn out, not planted. Job 21 Job describes the prosperity of the wicked. No planting imagery appears (e.g., 21:8 mentions “seed,” zera‘, H2233, but as offspring, not planting). Job 23–24 Job longs for God and questions justice. No agricultural or planting references appear. Job 26–31 Job 26–27: Job praises God’s power and affirms his integrity. No planting imagery. Job 28: A discourse on wisdom, with mining imagery (e.g., 28:5–6, earth and stones), but no planting. Job 29: Job recalls his past prosperity. In 29:19, he says, “My root was spread out to the waters, and dew lay all night on my branch.” Root (שֹׁרֶשׁ, shoresh, H8328): Root, as in Job 8:17. Spread out (פָּתַח, pathach, H6605): To open or spread. Branch (קָצִיר, qatsir, H7105, contextually a branch): Typically “harvest,” but here likely a branch. Implication: Job describes his former vitality like a tree with roots by water, but this is a metaphor for his stability, not an act of planting. Job 30–31: Job laments his current state and defends his righteousness. No planting references. Job 40:3–5 and 42:1–6 Job’s brief responses to God focus on humility and repentance. No planting imagery appears. Step 3: Summary of Findings Explicit Planting: Job never speaks of planting anything (e.g., sowing seeds, planting trees) in a literal sense. No instances of zara‘ (H2232), nata‘ (H5193), or shathal (H8362) appear in his speeches in the context of him planting. Metaphorical Planting: Job uses plant-related imagery in two key passages: Job 14:7–9: Describes a tree sprouting (chalaph) and flourishing like a plant (latiyyah) after being cut, but this is about natural regrowth, not Job planting. Job 29:19: Mentions his “root” spread to waters, symbolizing past prosperity, not an act of planting. Job 19:10: Refers to being “uprooted” like a tree, the opposite of planting. Context: Job’s plant imagery is metaphorical, focusing on growth, vitality, or destruction (roots, shoots, trees), but he never describes himself or others planting anything Yahweh's Speeches in Job: Spoiler God’s Speeches in Job: God speaks directly to Job in Job 38:1–40:2 and 40:6–41:34, often called the “speeches from the whirlwind.” These chapters focus on God’s power, wisdom, and sovereignty over creation, using vivid imagery of nature, animals, and cosmic order. Key Terms: I’ll look for Hebrew words related to planting, such as: זָרַע (zara‘, Strong’s H2232): To sow or plant. נָטַע (nata‘, Strong’s H5193): To plant or set (e.g., a tree or vine). שָׁתַל (shathal, Strong’s H8362): To transplant or plant. Related terms like “seed” (זֶרַע, zera‘, H2233), “root” (שֹׁרֶשׁ, shoresh, H8328), or “grow” (צָמַח, tsamach, H6779) may indicate agricultural metaphors. Context: I’ll check for both literal planting (e.g., crops, trees) and metaphorical planting (e.g., establishing something). God’s speeches are poetic and focus on creation, so I’ll also consider botanical imagery that might imply planting. Step 2: Analysis of God’s Speeches Let’s examine Job 38:1–40:2 and 40:6–41:34 for references to planting or related imagery, using the NASB and Strong’s Concordance. Job 38:1–40:2 God challenges Job’s understanding by describing His creation and control over the cosmos, earth, sea, weather, stars, and animals. Key passages with potential botanical references: Job 38:25–27: “Who has split a channel for the flood, or a way for the thunderbolt, to bring rain on a land without people, on a desert without a man in it, to satisfy the waste and desolate land and to make the seeds of grass to sprout?” Seeds (צֶמַח, tsemach, Strong’s H6779): To sprout or grow, related to צָמַח (tsamach), meaning to spring up or produce growth. Here, it’s literally “the sprouting of grass” (עֵשֶׂב, eseb, H6212, grass or herb). Sprout (צָמַח, tsamach, H6779): To cause to grow or sprout, implying natural growth due to rain. Context: God describes His provision of rain to make grass sprout in uninhabited lands, emphasizing His care for creation. The focus is on natural growth, not God planting. Implication: While this involves vegetation and sprouting, it describes God’s role in enabling growth through rain, not the act of planting (zara‘ or nata‘). Job 38:33: “Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, or do you establish their rule over the earth?” Establish (כּוּן, kun, Strong’s H3559): To set, establish, or prepare, not specifically planting. Implication: This is about cosmic order, not agriculture. Job 39: No botanical references. Focuses on animals (e.g., goats, deer, wild donkey, ostrich). Job 40:6–41:34 God continues challenging Job, focusing on His power and describing Behemoth (40:15–24) and Leviathan (41:1–34). Potential botanical references: Job 40:21–22: Describing Behemoth: “Under the lotus plants he lies down, in the covert of the reeds and the marsh. The lotus plants cover him with shade; the willows of the brook surround him.” Lotus plants (צֶאֱלִים, tse’elim, Strong’s H6628): A type of plant, possibly lotus or a thorny shrub, found in marshes. Reeds (קָנֶה, qaneh, Strong’s H7070): Cane or reed, as in marshy areas (e.g., Isaiah 42:3). Marsh (בִּצָּה, bitstsah, Strong’s H1207): Swamp, as in Job 8:11. Willows (עַרְבֵי, ‘arbei, from עָרָב, Strong’s H6155): Willow trees by a brook. Context: These describe Behemoth’s habitat, emphasizing God’s creation of environments where creatures dwell. The plants (lotus, reeds, willows) are part of the natural setting, not planted by God in the text. Implication: No mention of planting; the focus is on existing vegetation as part of creation. Step 3: Summary of Findings Explicit Planting: God does not speak of planting anything in a literal sense (e.g., sowing seeds or planting trees). No instances of zara‘ (H2232), nata‘ (H5193), or shathal (H8362) appear in God’s speeches. Metaphorical Planting: God’s speeches lack metaphorical uses of planting (e.g., establishing something as a plant). The closest references are: Job 38:27: God causes grass to “sprout” (tsemach, H6779) through rain, but this describes natural growth, not planting. Job 40:21–22: Mentions lotus plants, reeds, and willows as Behemoth’s habitat, but these are pre-existing, not planted by God in the narrative. Context: God’s speeches emphasize His sovereignty over creation, including weather (rain) and natural environments (marshes, plants), but planting as an action is not mentioned. The focus is on God’s provision for growth (via rain) or creation of habitats, not the act of planting. Step 4: Comparison with Job 8:11-17 and Job’s Speeches Job 8:11-17 (Bildad): Bildad uses plant imagery (papyrus, rushes, a tree on a stone heap) to describe the wicked’s fleeting prosperity, with roots (shoresh, H8328) and sprouting (yoneqeth, H3127) but no explicit planting. Unlike God’s speeches, Bildad’s imagery is metaphorical and judgmental. Job’s Speeches: As analyzed previously, Job doesn’t speak of planting but uses plant imagery (e.g., Job 14:7–9, sprouting tree; 29:19, roots by water) to describe vitality or loss. God’s reference to sprouting grass (38:27) is similar to Job 14:7–9’s sprouting (chalaph, H2498), but neither describes planting. Contrast: God’s focus is on His creative power and provision (rain causing growth), while Job and Bildad use plant imagery metaphorically for human conditions. None explicitly mention planting Analysis of the Radicals in Yi Yi Ren: Spoiler The name Yi Yi Ren consists of three Chinese characters: 薏 (yì), 苡 (yǐ), and 仁 (rén). Each character has a radical (the primary component that often provides a clue to meaning or category) and additional components that contribute to its overall meaning or pronunciation. 1. 薏 (yì) Radical: 艹 (cǎo, grass radical, Radical 140) Meaning: The 艹 radical indicates that the character is related to plants, herbs, or grass. This is fitting for Yi Yi Ren, as it is a plant-based herb (the seed of Coix lacryma-jobi). Role in TCM Context: The grass radical aligns with the herb’s botanical nature, emphasizing its use as a medicinal plant in TCM to drain dampness, clear heat, and tonify the spleen. Other Components: The character 薏 is composed of the grass radical 艹 on top and the phonetic component 意 (yì, meaning "intention" or "idea") below. Phonetic Clue: The 意 component provides the pronunciation (yì) and may suggest a conceptual association with the herb’s purposeful use in healing. Combined Meaning: While 薏 itself is primarily a phonetic transcription for the herb’s name, the grass radical ties it directly to its plant-based identity, and the 意 component may imply the herb’s intentional therapeutic application. Total Strokes: 19 strokes. Cultural Note: The character 薏 is specific to this herb and not commonly used in other contexts, reinforcing its specialized role in TCM nomenclature. 2. 苡 (yǐ) Radical: 艹 (cǎo, grass radical, Radical 140) Meaning: Like 薏, the 苡 character uses the grass radical, further emphasizing that Yi Yi Ren is a plant-derived herb. The repetition of the grass radical in both 薏 and 苡 underscores the botanical significance of the herb in TCM. TCM Relevance: The grass radical is common in many TCM herbs, signaling their plant-based origin and medicinal properties, such as Yi Yi Ren’s ability to address damp-heat conditions and support digestion. Other Components: Below the 艹 radical is the component 多 (duō, meaning "many" or "abundant"). Semantic Hint: The 多 component may suggest abundance, possibly alluding to the plentiful seeds of the Coix plant or its widespread use in TCM for multiple conditions (e.g., edema, diarrhea, arthritis). Phonetic Role: The 多 component also contributes to the pronunciation (yǐ), though the sound is slightly modified. Total Strokes: 11 strokes. Cultural Note: The character 苡 is rarely used outside the context of Yi Yi Ren, making it a specific identifier for this herb in TCM texts. 3. 仁 (rén) Radical: 亻 (rén, person radical, Radical 9) Meaning: The person radical 亻 typically relates to human attributes, actions, or qualities. In the context of 仁, it is paired with 二 (èr, meaning "two"), which may symbolize duality or balance, a key concept in TCM (e.g., balancing Yin and Yang). The character 仁 itself means "benevolence," "humanity," or "kindness" in classical Chinese, but in TCM, it often refers to the "kernel" or "seed" of a plant, especially in herbal names. TCM Relevance: In Yi Yi Ren, 仁 specifically refers to the seed or kernel of the Coix plant, which is the part used medicinally. The use of 仁 in herbal names (e.g., Xing Ren for apricot kernel) highlights the seed’s role as the potent, life-giving part of the plant, aligning with TCM’s focus on harnessing vital essences for healing. Other Components: The 二 component (two horizontal lines) may also evoke balance or the idea of a small, essential core (the seed). Total Strokes: 4 strokes. Cultural Note: The dual meaning of 仁 (benevolence and seed/kernel) reflects TCM’s holistic philosophy, where the herb’s physical seed is seen as embodying life-giving, nurturing qualities, akin to human kindness. Synthesis of Radical Meanings in TCM Context The radicals in Yi Yi Ren (薏苡仁) collectively emphasize its identity as a plant-based herb (艹 in 薏 and 苡) with a medicinally potent seed (仁). The grass radical (艹) in the first two characters ties directly to the herb’s botanical nature, while the person radical (亻) in 仁 underscores the seed’s role as the essential, therapeutic component, metaphorically linked to human vitality and balance. These radicals align with Yi Yi Ren’s TCM functions: Draining Dampness: The herb is classified under "herbs that drain dampness," addressing conditions like edema and arthritis. Clearing Heat: Its slightly cold nature helps clear damp-heat, as seen in formulas like San Ren Tang. Tonifying the Spleen: The seed (仁) supports spleen function, aiding digestion and reducing diarrhea. Expelling Pus: Used in abscess treatments, reflecting its ability to resolve internal imbalances. The use of 多 (abundant) in 苡 may also hint at the herb’s versatility in treating multiple conditions, from digestive issues to cancer-related symptoms, as supported by modern studies on its anti-tumor properties. Additional Notes Phonetic and Semantic Balance: The characters 薏 and 苡 are primarily phonetic, chosen to transcribe the name of the Coix plant, but their radicals and components (艹 and 多) add semantic depth, linking to the herb’s plant-based abundance. The 仁 character bridges the botanical and therapeutic, emphasizing the seed’s vital role. Cultural and Linguistic Insight: In TCM, herb names often combine descriptive radicals (e.g., 艹 for plants) with components that evoke function or cultural significance. The name Yi Yi Ren reflects both the herb’s physical form (seeds) and its therapeutic essence (nurturing health). Caution: As with all TCM herbs, Yi Yi Ren should be used under professional guidance due to potential contraindications, such as avoiding use during pregnancy Western Naming Origin: Spoiler The plant was named Coix lacryma-jobi by Carl Linnaeus in 1753, with “lacryma” (Latin for “tear”) referring to the tear-shaped seeds. The common name “Job’s Tears” likely draws from this tear-like appearance, combined with a Christian cultural association. So. Yeah. It may not have been what I expected. But, after an analysis of the texts, it doesnt make any sense to continue. There is no metaphorical concept in hebrew that alludes to such things as planting... anything by Job or Yahweh in the book of Job. Strong's Entry on lyyob: Iyyob: Job Original Word: אִיּוֹבPart of Speech: Proper Name MasculineTransliteration: IyowbPronunciation: ee-yobe'Phonetic Spelling: (ee-yobe')KJV: JobNASB: Job, Job'sWord Origin: [from H340 (אָיַב - enemies)] 1. hated (i.e. persecuted) 2. Ijob, the patriarch famous for his patience Elsewhere the trust of the wicked are often spoken of as spiderwebs, something extremely researched. So, I was wrong about the subject, Job is not the writer as he existed circa 1500 bc or if we go by Talmud/Midrash references, 800 years before Yisreal's Exodus. Edited July 21 by NorthWide finished writing 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
