Demonology. Why focus on the negative?

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, zerostao said:

 

Nice, thanks for sharing 

 

 

I expected someone to bring up Carl Jung.

 

Okay ... 

 

The 'Daemon' or 'Tutelary Spirit'  ; 

 

 

"  ' Philemon  was simply a superior knowledge, and he taught me psychological objectivity and the actuality of the soul. He formulated and expressed everything which I had never thought.'

Jung’s fantasy figure was based on the figure of Philemon who appeared in Ovid’s Metamorphoses and in Goethe’s Faust. "

 

https://philemonfoundation.org/about-philemon/who-is-philemon/

[Nungali]

... note '  Goethe's  Faust ... there were two versions    

 

The first seems a typical Christian tale of God the Devil and punishment . The second is more about a ' transformational ' ending  and initiatory  journey leading to the Superconscious  ( via the help of 'The Virgin Mary '   ... probably in her aspect as 'Stella Maris ' - 'Our Lady Star of the Sea - patron of  sailors and all who journey upon the sea , especially during storms and shipwrecks ...

 

 

.  Remembering that  the sea is a symbol of the unconscious , the surface the ego and the sky and heavens the superconsious.   Its nice when the surface is calm     but who knows what 'lurks beneath '  .  During 'dire circumstances'  these spirits can seem to act as  the 'Guardian Angel ' type of spirit or  even during physical 'trials' as 'The Third Man Factor '  - the unseen helper ;

 

" One study of cases involving adventurers reported that the largest group involved climbers, with solo sailors and shipwreck survivors being the second most common group, followed by polar explorers ... 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_man_factor    )

 

Whereas in the Marlow version , Philamon is one of the people ( 'spirits ' in Faust's 'watery psyche ' - the  'drowned land )  * 

 that he (his ego ) wants to take over and inhabit , with the aid of Mephistopheles .... to disastrous consequences . 

 

* 

"  In Faust ², Act V, Goethe has Faust build a city on land reclaimed from the sea. In order to accomplish this task, Faust tells Mephistopheles that he wants Philemon and Baucis, who lived on this land, moved. To Faust’s ultimate horror, instead of doing so, Mephistopheles decides to burn their cottage with Philemon and Baucis inside. Goethe’s Faust made a tremendous impression on Jung and held a life-long significance for him. He felt personally implicated by the destruction of these humble and reverent figures and felt that it was his responsibility to atone for this crime and to prevent its repetition.³ Healing this Faustian split would become a central theme in Jung’s life work. "

 

It seems  Jung  felt he had somehow compromised his relationship with his 'special  spirit'  ?  Perhaps , in  a way we all have ? In that in much of modern society we are not aware of such psychic dynamics, suppress them or mis interpret them . 

 

[zerostao]

Perhaps.

Unravelling Goethe's Faust is daunting and totally worthwhile. The closing scene you shared from the Marlow play was well done IMO.

 

On a much smaller scale and depth,  although seemingly as surreal, I have an experience from early 2020 that reminds me of Faust climbing up the Brocken. I was accompanied on that trek by "twitchi" and her cloven hooves. It's all in my ppj thread, now hidden, curiously named In the Company of Devils. I think there is enough distance in time and location, that I may return to it and finish it up. Basically, it's 200 pages of notes of things that ( I could possibly forget) happened from August 2018-April 2020.  There are plenty of things went on I won't ever forget that I need to add to it. Supernatural was commonplace. 

 

Thank you for your fine analysis. I hadn't realized the Philemon connection between Ovid and Goethe, if I had once been aware of that, I had since forgot it.

 

[Nungali]

I should have included Ovid's version as its an interesting comparison   - in that -   I am taking the Greeks as rather advanced and accepting and working with their ' tutelary spirits and  daemons' ... during Marlow's time , things had  gone a little backwards and more ignorant , Goethe  tried to get back to a more positive and 'classical view ..... so, Ovid's Philamon   

 

AI Overview :

" In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Philemon is a key figure alongside his wife Baucis. They are an elderly, pious couple in Phrygia who exemplify hospitality, even to disguised gods according to Wikipedia and Britannica. Their kindness is rewarded when they are spared a flood and their humble cottage is turned into a temple, where they serve as priests and priestesses. "

( in this case they are spared from a flood instead of killed by it  ) 

 

" Key aspects of Philemon's story:

• Hospitality:

  Philemon and Baucis offer their meager resources to disguised gods, Jupiter (Zeus) and Mercury (Hermes), when others in their town refuse to do so. 

   
• Piety and Virtue:

  Their kindness and generosity are a testament to their moral character and devotion. 

   
• Reward:

  As a consequence of their piety, they are saved from a devastating flood that destroys their town and are granted their wish to become priests and priestesses of the temple that replaces their cottage. 

   
• Intertwined Trees:

  They are ultimately granted their wish to die at the same moment and are transformed into trees, an oak and a linden, growing together and eternally intertwined. 

   

Philemon and Baucis are a powerful example of the virtues of hospitality, piety, and the rewards of a life lived with integrity, according to Ovid. Their story is a reminder of the importance of kindness, even in the face of adversity, and the potential for divine favor to be bestowed upon those who demonstrate these qualities. " 

[zerostao]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

I should have included Ovid's version as its an interesting comparison   - in that -   I am taking the Greeks as rather advanced and accepting and working with their ' tutelary spirits and  daemons' ... during Marlow's time , things had  gone a little backwards and more ignorant , Goethe  tried to get back to a more positive and 'classical view ..... so, Ovid's Philamon   

 

AI Overview :

" In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Philemon is a key figure alongside his wife Baucis. They are an elderly, pious couple in Phrygia who exemplify hospitality, even to disguised gods according to Wikipedia and Britannica. Their kindness is rewarded when they are spared a flood and their humble cottage is turned into a temple, where they serve as priests and priestesses. "

( in this case they are spared from a flood instead of killed by it  ) 

 

" Key aspects of Philemon's story:

• Hospitality:

  Philemon and Baucis offer their meager resources to disguised gods, Jupiter (Zeus) and Mercury (Hermes), when others in their town refuse to do so. 

   
• Piety and Virtue:

  Their kindness and generosity are a testament to their moral character and devotion. 

   
• Reward:

  As a consequence of their piety, they are saved from a devastating flood that destroys their town and are granted their wish to become priests and priestesses of the temple that replaces their cottage. 

   
• Intertwined Trees:

  They are ultimately granted their wish to die at the same moment and are transformed into trees, an oak and a linden, growing together and eternally intertwined. 

   

Philemon and Baucis are a powerful example of the virtues of hospitality, piety, and the rewards of a life lived with integrity, according to Ovid. Their story is a reminder of the importance of kindness, even in the face of adversity, and the potential for divine favor to be bestowed upon those who demonstrate these qualities. " 

 

Thanks again!

 

It's ok to spoon feed me. I knew Goethe was a huge fan of Ovid, and why not.

Once upon a time, I used Ovid as master of how to play "the game"

Still knowing, how deep Ovid was in just about every aspect of life.

I take the Ancient Greeks as ultra advanced. The Hellenistic influences of Ovid are undeniable. Perhaps every poet traces back to Homer in some way,,,,

It's a long list of who's who that've been influenced by Ovid. Two of those being Dante & Shakespeare.

[Nungali]

He has a 'way with words '    -   content and composition .

 

 

... And Neptune with his trident smote the Earth, which trembling with unwonted throes heaved up the sources of her waters bare; and through her open plains the rapid rivers rushed resistless, onward bearing the waving grain, the budding groves, the houses, sheep and men,—and holy temples, and their sacred urns. The mansions that remained, resisting vast and total ruin, deepening waves concealed and whelmed their tottering turrets in the flood and whirling gulf. And now one vast expanse, the land and sea were mingled in the waste of endless waves—a sea without a shore.

 

[293] One desperate man seized on the nearest hill; another sitting in his curved boat, plied the long oar where he was wont to plow; another sailed above his grain, above his hidden dwelling; and another hooked a fish that sported in a leafy elm. Perchance an anchor dropped in verdant fields, or curving keels were pushed through tangled vines; and where the gracile goat enjoyed the green, unsightly seals reposed. Beneath the waves were wondering Nereids, viewing cities, groves and houses. Dolphins darting mid the trees, meshed in the twisted branches, beat against the shaken oak trees. There the sheep, affrayed, swim with the frightened wolf, the surging waves float tigers and lions: availeth naught his lightning shock the wild boar, nor avails the stag's fleet footed speed. The wandering bird, seeking umbrageous groves and hidden vales, with wearied pinion droops into the sea. The waves increasing surge above the hills, and rising waters dash on mountain tops. Myriads by the waves are swept away, and those the waters spare, for lack of food, starvation slowly overcomes at last.

 

-Metamorphoses ; 283 - 313 .  The Great Deluge . 

[Apotheose]

Something that happened to me last weekend made myself contemplate again the content of this thread.

I was invited to attend a protestant “exorcist” ritual, and it broke my heart. It wasn’t one of those hoaxes which are rehearsed and performed with paid actors; rather, it was genuine and, therefore, much more saddening. The Pastor pretended to banish a demon from a believer and… that’s it —nothing more than that. And it’s a damn shame to see how the modern use of christian demonology completely contradicts the ALLEGORICAL approach of the Holy Bible itself. 

 

Something I’ve noticed throughout the years is that christian demonology is a field which is very much pursued by young and curious christians. And it’s a damn shame that they are taught that the “lesser stuff” is more important than what is (unfortunately) reputed as “basic mysticism” —and that is, in my understanding, due to the work of some spiritualists who tried to corrupt the meaning of the Holy Bible and, possibly, also had psychotic tendencies.

As some of you might have read in my last posts on this thread, the christian esoteric postulates completely refute that type of ritualistic approach. It’s no coincidence that Christianity and its mystical roots are grounded in LIGHT and LOVE. And the purest manifestations of Light and Love are more than enough (!) to free someone from hardships. It’s also no coincidence that both the Holy Mass and the Protestant Service are grounded in INCREASING THE LIGHT —meaning: attuning one’s consciousness with the Divine—, NOT fighting, removing or avoiding darkness, hardships, demons or any other things!
 

There’s just no way, from an esoteric standpoint, to conclude that there’s such a thing as literally removing demons from someone. I have a strong belief that this narrative is used exclusively to making money off of people’s desperations and miseries —or, in the most optimistic scenario, made by someone with a very naive understanding of mysticism.

 

Christian demonology has become a fertile land of complete lunatics. And I frequently see people who have a history of mental illness or who come from a “RolePlay Games” background seeking this kind of knowledge and/or producing their own works/opinions in this field.

 

And that’s why I once again bring up the title of this thread: “Why focus on the negative?”. Why waste time thinking of the darkness (absence of Light) when one could be thinking of the Light? Why not spend your precious time invoking God’s ineffable Light and Grace, which protects and guides us to his incognoscible Glory?

Edited June 3 by Apotheose