Healthy ego

[SodaChanh]

I am reading this book

 

King, Warrior, Magician, Lover

 

as part of my work in therapy and I found it very helpful in recognizing unhealthy patterns in my psyche. 

 

Probably there are equivalents for the female archetypes. 

 

I feel the spiritual bypassing is enormous in the old traditions of Buddhism and Taoism. They simply have too little insight into the psyche and poor understanding of what bad upbringing and childhood trauma can do in terms of crippling the development of a healthy adult ego. 

 

Especially buddhism which just tries to suppress or annihilate the personal self. Very unhealthy. 

 

A combination of spirituality and personal ego work will work wonders on achieving a silent mind and healthy, sung qi.

[Cobie]

I was diagnosed with 'depersonalisation' at a young age.  Very glad to say I have a healthy sense of 'self' now. 

[stirling]

On 2/16/2025 at 4:44 AM, SodaChanh said:

I I feel the spiritual bypassing is enormous in the old traditions of Buddhism and Taoism. They simply have too little insight into the psyche and poor understanding of what bad upbringing and childhood trauma can do in terms of crippling the development of a healthy adult ego.

 

There are two layers here that you are conflating:

 

1. Working with the "self"/ego. 

 

You have to have a fairly healthy, developed sense of self before taking non-dual spiritual practice any further. For those with deep rooted trauma and clinging/aversion to their trauma the aid of a psychologist and/or psychiatrist can be pivotal

 

2. Seeing through the illusory nature of self and all seemingly separate phenomena. 

 

When the "self" is stable and trauma isn't so raw it is possible to do practices intended to point out the illusory nature of these structures.

 

On 2/16/2025 at 4:44 AM, SodaChanh said:

Especially buddhism which just tries to suppress or annihilate the personal self. Very unhealthy.

 

This is a gross misunderstanding of the intent and practices. Buddhism doesn't suppress or annihilate anything. Practices in Buddhism are pointers to a different way of seeing and understanding the same reality you already exist in, from a very different understanding. Nothing is ever forced... it would be counter productive. 

 

On 2/16/2025 at 4:44 AM, SodaChanh said:

A combination of spirituality and personal ego work will work wonders on achieving a silent mind and healthy, sung qi.

 

Spirituality and ego work can make our experience of the world and "ego" much smoother. Those who take their practice deeper will realize that the spaciousness of "silent mind" is actually much more than they ever realized. 

[SodaChanh]

21 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

This is a gross misunderstanding of the intent and practices. Buddhism doesn't suppress or annihilate anything. Practices in Buddhism are pointers to a different way of seeing and understanding the same reality you already exist in, from a very different understanding. Nothing is ever forced... it would be counter productive. 

 

No it isn't. There are multiple cases where people have been abused sexually by Buddhist teachers. Why? Because the teachers were suppressing their sexuality instead of having a natural outlet. 

 

No need to put Buddhism on a pedestal. It is just a bunch of people practicing, they are flawed and not perfect. 

[stirling]

30 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

No it isn't. There are multiple cases where people have been abused sexually by Buddhist teachers. Why? Because the teachers were suppressing their sexuality instead of having a natural outlet. 

 

Again... I think you are conflating two things - Buddhism and Buddhists. Buddhism doesn't have any kind of built in system of abuse. Also, I want to point out that many Buddhist traditions allow monks and teachers to be married... no sexual suppression. 

 

30 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

No need to put Buddhism on a pedestal. It is just a bunch of people practicing, they are flawed and not perfect. 

 

I'm absolutely not putting anyone or anything on a pedestal here, merely hoping to bring some clarity to the discussion. Yes, Buddhists are humans, like humans everywhere, and in all traditions - flawed. Buddhism is just a conceptual framework of practices and teachings, like any other system, including those of author of the book you are excited about.

 

You seem to have strong feelings about this. Are you coming from a situation where you were abused? If so, I am very sorry to hear that, if that is the case.

[AKD]

2 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

 

No it isn't. There are multiple cases where people have been abused sexually by Buddhist teachers. Why? Because the teachers were suppressing their sexuality instead of having a natural outlet. 

 

No need to put Buddhism on a pedestal. It is just a bunch of people practicing, they are flawed and not perfect. 

 

Not trying to put Buddhism on a pedestal as I am not Buddhist, and I totally recognize that there are Buddhist teachers & monks who abuse students verbally, physically, sexually, emotionally, or are flawed in various ways by abusing drugs, alcohol, money, etc. In fact, I saw a news report on Instagram this past weekend that a certain Wat in Thailand was raided because 6 of the 18 monks were consuming (abusing) methamphetamines.  

 

That said, it's interesting that you take a few examples of a few bad teachers that make the news, and then come to a conclusion by simply writing off or ignoring a potential, silent majority of teachers, monks, and practitioners that are decent humans. Many Buddhist monks and teachers, even if they are enlightened, tend to be low key from what I understand. 

 

A Western parallel would be this: we hear about the success stories of folks like Bill Gates & Mark Zuckerberg & Elon Musk & Steve Jobs who all became wildly successful after taking major risks. Do we ever hear about the other folks who took major risks who lost everything though? Not really. In my experience, I only ever see the (auto)biographies of the massively successful people on the shelves of my "BigBook-Book Store". So a person could come to the conclusion that taking massive career risks is an always going to guarantee success, but that is simply not the case. We generally only hear about the success stories though.

 

In the same way, with Buddhist teachers or Catholic Priests, we only ever hear the negative stories. We don't really hear the stories about Father John and Ajahn Dave who are actually spiritually developed and are going about their lives and their teaching in a very low-key way. They are probably amazing teachers and guides who could help a person realize the true nature of reality, just as they have done.

 

Every religion contains its saints and its psychopaths. It's up to us to use our common sense and wisdom to discern who is genuine and who is problematic. To write off an entire group up front, without being a bit more discerning, simply shows that you have a bias. 

 

Have you investigated your feelings towards this bias? Might be a helpful practice, genuinely, as I have done some of the same myself. 

Edited Tuesday at 07:02 PM by AKD

[SodaChanh]

AKD have you investigated your dislike for certain foods? 

 

Are you certain you are ok with having a preference for specific foods or do you imply we should DELETE the human? 

[Krenx]

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

 

No it isn't. There are multiple cases where people have been abused sexually by Buddhist teachers. Why? Because the teachers were suppressing their sexuality instead of having a natural outlet. 

 

No need to put Buddhism on a pedestal. It is just a bunch of people practicing, they are flawed and not perfect. 

 

Are you generalizing that everyone who says their Buddhist are practicing real buddhism?

 

And by saying "just a bunch of people practicing, they are flawed and not perfect". Are you implying there are no good practitioners, nobody in the right path in their respective religions? 

 

These are big claims. Hope you clarify this. 

Edited Tuesday at 06:38 PM by Krenx

[SodaChanh]

3 minutes ago, Krenx said:

 

Are you generalizing that everyone who says their Buddhist are practicing real buddhism?

 

And by saying "just a bunch of people practicing, they are flaws and not perfect". Are you implying there are no good practitioners, nobody in the right path in their respective religions? 

 

These are big claims. Hope you clarify this. 

 

Buddhists are human and naturally flawed, this is logic, no? 

 

If a teacher implies he is perfect he would be a cult leader not a real teacher. 

 

There are good practitioners in every tradition. Saying they are beyond being human with built in bias and blinders is naive. 

 

 

 

[AKD]

12 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

AKD have you investigated your dislike for certain foods? 

 

Are you certain you are ok with having a preference for specific foods or do you imply we should DELETE the human? 

 

I have investigated this to be honest with you, yet I am having trouble understanding your logic here. 

 

Personally, as a kid/teenager, I tried feta cheese and absolutely loathed it. As an adult, I have tried it again in various contexts and I no longer would consider myself a hater of feta cheese. I actually really like it now. I have had the same experience with various foods throughout the years because I am open minded and understand that my tastes have changed. My parents used to give me a sip of wine or beer on occasion and I was always appalled, yet I rather like beer and the occasional glass of wine now. I am sure there are more examples, but I think that suffices.

 

Have you tried Buddhist practices? Are you implying that you were personally abused by a Buddhist teacher? If you have been abused, I'd absolutely support you in avoiding Buddhist teachers and/or practitioners entirely.

 

In this instance though, it seems that you are saying that others were harmed, therefore you shouldn't take part. If I don't like feta cheese, should you not eat it?

Edited Tuesday at 06:43 PM by AKD

[liminal_luke]

Interestingly, Buddhism and related non-dual traditions seem to draw a lot of naysayers.  This is in stark contrast to taoist practices like qigong or tai chi or even more esoteric alchemical traditions like nei gong.  With these Taoist practices, people will criticize particular individuals, especially teachers.  So-and-so doesn´t have good tai chi body mechanics; so-and-so doesn´t actually know anything about nei gong.  What people don´t do is say that tai chi or neigong as an entire tradition is bogus.  With Buddhism, it´s often just the opposite.  I wonder why.

[SodaChanh]

Stirling says nothing is ever forced. 

 

This is not true. 

 

Evidence points to a different reality,  examples are what is already mentioned, then vipassana practices that lead to dark knight of the soul, already known if you research it. 

 

In Daoism you see people read old texts that say women contain 'worms' and shouldn't be touched. Then they suppress their natural sexual desire. 

 

So it is not just Buddhism. 

 

Once you act within a framework you will be affected by the framework. 

 

It is surprising people cannot see this. 

[Krenx]

12 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

 

Buddhists are human and naturally flawed, this is logic, no? 

 

If a teacher implies he is perfect he would be a cult leader not a real teacher. 

 

There are good practitioners in every tradition. Saying they are beyond being human with built in bias and blinders is naive. 

 

 

 

 

Sure. Just want to make sure. Because you make quite extreme statements without any basis for it and assume what you say is well known fact when it is not really. It is difficult to have a conversation with other people like that.... If a conversation is what you are looking for at least.  

[SodaChanh]

7 minutes ago, Krenx said:

 

Sure. Just want to make sure. Because you make quite extreme statements without any basis for it and assume what you say is well known fact when it is not really. It is difficult to have a conversation with other people like that.... If a conversation is what you are looking for at least.  

 

Nothing extreme if you are actually interested 

 

https://tricycle.org/magazine/what-went-wrong-tibetan-sex-abuse/

 

Took less than 1 sec to Google? 

 

No basis? 

 

Maybe you should mind your words. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

Stirling says nothing is ever forced. 

 

This is not true. 

 

An example, and your explanation of your position on it might be helpful.

 

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

Evidence points to a different reality,  examples are what is already mentioned, then vipassana practices that lead to dark knight of the soul, already known if you research it. 

 

Vipassana practices can precipitate a "dark night", but not always. The "dark night", in this case, part of the process, not an accident, caused by the method in which emotional material gets churned up by the meditation modalities in play.

 

The "dark night" isn't a feature of other types of Buddhism which have different practices and whose models do not include this progression. Still, meditation IS intended to bring up your emotional obscurations. They are material for great realization. This is the way out.

 

1 hour ago, SodaChanh said:

In Daoism you see people read old texts that say women contain 'worms' and shouldn't be touched. Then they suppress their natural sexual desire. 

 

So it is not just Buddhism.

 

Such things are in most of the world religions.

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

Once you act within a framework you will be affected by the framework. 

 

It is surprising people cannot see this. 

 

I think of it as an energy field.  So the practice is qualified by the energy field - even if the practitioner thinks it only a physical practice.

 

Energy fields are intelligent and can have various intents.

 

But it is not surprising to me that  most people cannot see it.  Only a minority of humans can control their feelings and only a small percentage can control their thoughts.

 

Thus most practitioners are influenced by the intent of the intelligence operating the framework

 

I am very careful about entering into groups for that reason

 

 

 

[Cobie]

 

58 minutes ago, stirling said:

… meditation IS intended to bring up your emotional obscurations. They are material for great realization. This is the way out. …

I agree. I know that to be true for me from my own experience. 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:16 PM by Cobie