Is a nondual realisation equivalent to a kundalini activation?

[Bindi]

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

The term non-dualism (also the terms qualified non-dualism and duality) have been around for a very long time in traditional "eastern" ways!   Meaning a very long time before some or certain "western" intellectuals or wana-be types co-opted it and set up schools of dubious doctrine;  so does that now mean that all non-dualists are in the same pot as that?  I'd say no by a long shot; and granted proven precautions need be taken with teachers and schools but neither are all yogi's,  guru's, Christians, shrinks, etc..  in the same pots because some have co-opted aspects of those teachings for ego driven designs, or fanatical like misunderstandings,  thus we have some bad apples making the all the barrels look bad.   Such has come into play for just about every "way" that has come down the pike but to me that doesn't mean being a die-hard cynic about such situations is the best course to take, and I think its fair to ask where will such an attitude get a person?

 

 

From the same source that I quoted previously, there was also this paragraph. 

When the mind, having pure sattva as its characteristic remains attending to the aham sphurana, which is the sign of the forthcoming direct experience of the Self, the downward-facing heart becomes upward-facing, blossoms and remains in the form of that [the Self]; [because of this] the aforesaid attention to the source of the aham sphurana alone is the path. When thus attended to, Self, the reality, alone will remain shining in the centre of the Heart as ‘I am I’.

 

Bhagavan included the full text of verse 18 and 19 of Ulladu Narpadu Anubandham after ‘downward-facing heart’ in the original Tamil, but to include them again here would make the text rather cumbersome. However, it is clear that he was supplementing the material in those verses by saying that at the moment of realisation the closed downward-facing bud turns upwards, blooms, and remains in that state.

 

So, there are two key things that happen at the moment of realisation: the ‘tiny hole’ opens and remains permanently open, and the inverted bud turns upwards and blooms.

 I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days, my mother saw a downward facing bud in my heart area a couple of years ago, she saw it turn upward, she saw the exact mechanism by which it managed this action, she then saw it bloom and like a lily open and close a few times, grow higher, then change from dark red to white, open slowly again, and reveal a miniature ‘me’ sitting inside. This was over quite a few days btw, and I recall briefly chatting to another TDB member about it at the time. I have mentioned before that my mother never had any idea what she was seeing, and to be honest the only way I have been able to start cobbling together any sort of map of the subtle energy body is largely by reading what other people have seen and said about it, and trying to start seeing the big picture of it all using my own logic. What I would say in relation to the above quote and how it relates to my path, is that this was not my realised Self, though perhaps it was an aspect of Self that hasn’t been realised yet in some way, perhaps the hole that he mentioned didn’t open concurrently, but what Ramana says at least leads to some small possible piece of this puzzle being explained in the slightest way. Just hearing that he has seen this helps me in a way. 
 

But just seeing some part of the subtle body isn’t even the final word, as understanding what it means in reality can only be done with the best information currently at hand and very strict logic. An analogy might be a person seeing something through a microscope when it was first invented, and really not having a clue about what they were seeing,  but over time and with a lot of people adding information to the puzzle, things will get named and how things actually work at a microscopic level will start to be understood. 

I relate this snippet precisely to explain why I am highly cynical about general claims of awakening and enlightenment and realisation from people who aren’t talking about these things and deny the existence of this level, preferring concepts of realisation beyond all physical and subtle levels of oneself. 
 

 

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw, there is a saying in Buddhism that I don't fully remember at the moment along the lines of: "no blame"  and also one in Taoism along the lines of not striving with others fosters no blame.

Any one should feel free to further propound on those sayings if they'd like to since its early in the morning here and I'm not that up on them anyway...

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

Thanks for sharing your descriptive and personal reflections Bindi! 

Btw.  in your studies what teachings have you come across for the end game of the casual or evolving soul body?  (while teachings on the Self say it never has and never does evolve for then it could it also devolve...)

 

[Bindi]

On 22/3/2024 at 4:46 PM, old3bob said:

 

Thanks for sharing your descriptive and personal reflections Bindi! 

Btw.  in your studies what teachings have you come across for the end game of the casual or evolving soul body?  (while teachings on the Self say it never has and never does evolve for then it could it also devolve...)

 

Sorry it took so long to respond, I came across this description from Gopi Krishna recently, I concur with his concept of us as evolving organisms, and that kundalini is the factor that allows the next sense evolution to occur. I’m not sure this is what you were asking actually, as this is the current end game for us as embodied organisms, not just a soul body, but this is all I’ve got! 

 

 

Thinking across disciplines and philosophies, Krishna’s light seems highly likely to be the Shen referred to in Daoism/Neidan. Also the “Stupendous intelligence that I can sense but never fathom, [which] looms behind every object and every event in the universe, silent, still, serene, and immovable like a mountain” sounds remarkably like the Dao. 
 

 

Edited Monday at 06:19 AM by Bindi

[old3bob]

 

I think that is a great excerpt from said author!   The light/Shakti for him is  described as settling into a wonderful/awesome 24/7 presence and who could ask for more concerning  evolution!   I'd also say it can be piercing like an arc-light that is way to bright and blinding to look at although that may just be part of a transition to his description?  Yet if light goes inside of itself what will it find, I'd say its Source...beyond description and memory which can not nail it down.

 

 

 

 

[Forestgreen]

On 2024-03-22 at 4:21 AM, Bindi said:

 my mother saw a downward facing bud in my heart area a couple of years ago, she saw it turn upward, she saw the exact mechanism by which it managed this action, 

Gyalwa Yangönpa: Secret map of the body, page 57 and 237, might be informative for you on this one. 

[Bindi]

On 22/4/2024 at 5:33 PM, old3bob said:

 

I think that is a great excerpt from said author!   The light/Shakti for him is  described as settling into a wonderful/awesome 24/7 presence and who could ask for more concerning  evolution!   I'd also say it can be piercing like an arc-light that is way to bright and blinding to look at although that may just be part of a transition to his description?  Yet if light goes inside of itself what will it find, I'd say its Source...beyond description and memory which can not nail it down.

 

 

 

 

Too bright, too hot, too painful, too anything, is to my understanding because conditions weren’t set up adequately for kundalini to rise. 

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

Too bright, too hot, too painful, too anything, is to my understanding because conditions weren’t set up adequately for kundalini to rise. 

 

and which almost killed Gopi Krishna even though his intentions and practice were  100% devotional, hopeful and pure according to his recounting as I remember reading it... anyway a million volts, as an analogy, is still a million volts and preparation is wise but still one can only make so many preparations before getting shocked (figuratively) one way or another.

 

[blue eyed snake]

On 17-3-2024 at 12:55 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

Question for discussion, is a nondual realisation equivalent to a kundalini activation?

 

Are they both a means to the same end? 

 

A nondual seeing simulating the kundalini, or energetically stimulating the kundalini leading to a nondual seeing?

 

 

can only give my personal experience,

 

Kundalini came totally unexpected and it cut away ego in one fell swoop. for many weeks I walked around dazed.

That one fell swoop had made me realize that those stories that I had always shrugged away as woowoo were true, that ego was made out of nothing, that the phrase "were all one" has substance.

 

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

 

[Bindi]

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

and which almost killed Gopi Krishna even though his intentions and practice were  100% devotional, hopeful and pure according to his recounting as I remember reading it... anyway a million volts, as an analogy, is still a million volts and preparation is wise but still one can only make so many preparations before getting shocked (figuratively) one way or another.

 

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock. 

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

can only give my personal experience,

 

Kundalini came totally unexpected and it cut away ego in one fell swoop. for many weeks I walked around dazed.

That one fell swoop had made me realize that those stories that I had always shrugged away as woowoo were true, that ego was made out of nothing, that the phrase "were all one" has substance.

 

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

 

Interesting, and completely authentic experience IMO. 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock. 

 

that's a good analogy,  and goes a very long ways in helping but in the end neither a teacher nor a system can take a certain step for us which only we can take...

[old3bob]

10 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

can only give my personal experience,

 

Kundalini came totally unexpected and it cut away ego in one fell swoop. for many weeks I walked around dazed.

That one fell swoop had made me realize that those stories that I had always shrugged away as woowoo were true, that ego was made out of nothing, that the phrase "were all one" has substance.

 

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

 

well we could also say that even though ego holds on it has in certain cases been indelibly impacted and seen as a passing construct, thus it can never regain the power it had once commandeered...

Edited yesterday at 04:57 AM by old3bob

[Bindi]

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

that's a good analogy,  and goes a very long ways in helping but in the end neither a teacher nor a system can take a certain step for us which only we can take...

Sure, we have to take the steps (though there are some exceptions to us having to do some things sometimes), but the importance of correct directions is paramount. I liked another thing Gopi Krishna said, something along the lines of there are immutable laws pertaining to the subtle energy body just as there are in physics, I do agree with this, and I fully believe that if we’re not given the right information about these immutable laws then we cannot be effective in the construction of the subtle energy system. Finding the right teacher or the right system is imperative, especially if we’re willing to do whatever is required of us. 

[old3bob]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock. 

 

revisiting this in another context:  We could ask if  the temptation of Jesus Christ was real?  Could he have failed and fallen?  Was  his life journey painless and smooth,  (per all his divine experience, spiritual being,  preparations and well developed subtle body of proven acts in the world of mankind) for example there was the very knarly mountain of doubt that he faced such as,  "my God, my God why has thou forsaken me"? 

 

(along with several other instances)

Edited 12 hours ago by old3bob