Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…

[Vajra Mind]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

After this, the Quran describes the recieving of the Torah, and Allah, naturally, is cited with being the author of the scripture rec'd.

 

وَلَقَدۡ ءَاتَیۡنَا مُوسَى ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَاۤ أَهۡلَكۡنَا ٱلۡقُرُونَ ٱلۡأُولَىٰ بَصَاۤىِٕرَ لِلنَّاسِ وَهُدࣰى وَرَحۡمَةࣰ لَّعَلَّهُمۡ یَتَذَكَّرُونَ ۝٤٣

 

28:43 And verily, We gave Musa the Scripture, from after what We had destroyed the generations former (as) an enlightenment for the mankind and a guidance and mercy that they may remember.

 

This confirms that the Quran asserts the jewish people rec'd a timeless revelation from Allah, for the mankind (لِلنَّاسِ ) .  Similarly "لِلنَّاسِ" in 12:38 and 22:25 clearly refers to all people for all time.

 

Surah 28 continues reminding the jewish people that they had rec'd a revelation, a book, scripture, verses, etc, from Allah, and here is another book which is clearly from the same source.  This is a recurring theme in the Quran.  It is identifying and discouraging disbelief, a negative belief, denial in something which is clearly from Allah. 

 

The word timeless or for all time, no such thing in the verse. you have imputed your own interpretation in the verse. 

[Daniel]

9 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

I pulled the most relevant verses

 

Ok...

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

You mentioned context, this is very important so please be mindful about that because your assessment lacks context, consistency and mostly cherry picking plus assumptions.

 

@Vajra Mind,

 

Respectully, I don't think you're being fair.  I'm accused of cherry picking, but, it's OK for you to "pull the most relevant verses"?

 

I discussed the context of 29:46-49.  I went back to the Surah 28 showing the context.  The Quran is teaching that a revelation was brought to the jewish people prior to the Quran.  Yes, the jewish people, in the majority, have a problem with disbelief.  The Quran is teaching that too.  It's no different than the prophets of the hebrew bible.  This theme is continued in Surah 29.  Ayat 46-49 state very clearly that not all the jewish people are the same.

 

If there is a translation problem, please bring it.  If there is context missing, please add it.  You're referring to Surat 3,5, and 59.  I'm referring to 28-29.  I also brought a few examples from Surat 2 and 3, but, my primary analysis is on 28-29.

 

In order to discuss this, I think we need to first agree on what is actually stated in the Quran.  If we cannot agree on what the words literally say, then we are not reading the same Quran.

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

You mentioned Dr. Shenaz Shaik and put a link about her biography, she is a medical doctor and she seems from Asian origin so she is neither native Arab nor Islamic scholar. Look at the translation of this verse which you posted for example:

 

Understoood.  I chose that translation by spot checking the ayat in Surat 28-29 with the individual word definitions in corpus.quran.com. 

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

The Arabic word is Sodoor which is chests not breasts. May HaShem help me:)

In any case do not worry about the translation, I will correct it whenever required.

 

This does not change the meaning of the ayah.   So, this specific objection to  Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is invalid.  Let's look at some others.

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

3:87 Their reward is that they will be condemned by Allah, the angels, and all of humanity.

 

Dishonest translation the word is La’an means cursed.

 

OK.  Thank you.  Let's look at Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation.

 

 

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/3/st78.htm

 

Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is not dishonest, agreed?  Let's look at another example.

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

5:13 But for breaking their covenant We condemned them and hardened their hearts. They distorted the words of the Scripture and neglected a portion of what they had been commanded to uphold. You ˹O Prophet˺ will always find deceit on their part, except for a few. But pardon them and bear with them. Indeed, Allah loves the good-doers.

 

Dishonest translation condemned here is La’an meaning cursed them. Who are the exceptional few? Are they the few who converted?

 

Let's look at Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation.

 

 

Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is not dishonest.

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

5:60 ... who earned Allah’s condemnation and displeasure ... 

 

Dishonest translation condemnation here is La’an meaning Cursed. Displeasure is Anger, the Arabic word is ghadeba

 

5:64 ... May their fists be tied and they be condemned for what they said...

 

Again, dishonesty from the translator... Again, the word condemned is wrong translation it is Cursed.

 

5:78 The disbelievers among the Children of Israel were condemned in the revelations of David and Jesus, son of Mary. That was for their disobedience and violations.

 

Cursed not condemned.

 

 

Ok.  There's 4 examples of dishonest translations, right?  5:13, 5:60, 5:64, 5:78.

 

Let's look at Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation.  All four of the mistranslations brought as examples are correctly translated by Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation.

 

 

Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is not dishonest.

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

You mentioned context, this is very important so please be mindful about that because your assessment lacks context, consistency and mostly cherry picking plus assumptions.

 

Assumptions?  Aren't you assuming I'm using a flawed translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

 

@Vajra Mind, how am I doing?  Did I misquote?  Am I relying on faulty translations?  Isn't the Quran supporting jewish people when we are doing the right things?

 

If there are no objections to what I've written...

 

You raised some objections, but gave no examples of any faults.  You've mentioned dishonest translations multiple times, but, have you checked the translations I am *actually* using?  Here they are, please confirm that we are reading the same Quran?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

28:1  Ta Seem Meem.
28:2  These (are the) Verses (of) the Book the clear.
28:3  We recite to you from (the) news (of) Musa and Firaun in truth for a people who believe.
28:4  Indeed, Firaun exalted himself in the land and made its people (into) sects, oppressing a group among them, slaughtering their sons and letting live their women. Indeed, he was of the corrupters.
28:5  And We wanted to bestow a favor upon those who were oppressed in the land and make them leaders and make them the inheritors,
28:6  And [We] establish them in the land and show Firaun and Haman and their hosts through them what they were fearing

 

Any problems with this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

28:36 But when came to them Musa with Our Signs clear, they said, "Not (is) this except a magic invented, and not we heard of this among our forefathers (of) the former (people)."

 

Any problems wiith this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

28:43 And verily, We gave Musa the Scripture, from after what We had destroyed the generations former (as) an enlightenment for the mankind and a guidance and mercy that they may remember.

 

Any problems with this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

29:1  Alif Laam Meem.

29:2  Do think the people that they will be left because they say, "We believe" and they not will be tested?

29:3  And indeed, We tested those who (were) from before them. And will surely make evident Allah those who (are) truthful and He will surely make evident the liars.

 

Any problems with this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

29:46  And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."
29:47  And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.
29:48  And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers.
29:49  Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers.

 

Any problems with this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

2:79  So woe to those who write the book with their (own) hands then, they say, "This (is) from Allah," to barter with it (for) a price little. So woe to them for what have written their hands and woe to them for what they earn.

2:80  And they say, "Never will touch us the Fire except (for) days numbered." Say, "Have you taken from Allah a covenant, so never will break Allah His Covenant? Or (do) you say against Allah what not you know?"

2:81  Yes, whoever earned evil and surrounded him with his sins - [so] those (are the) companions (of) the Fire; they in it (will) abide forever.

2:82  And those who believed and did righteous deeds, those (are the) companions (of) Paradise; they in it (will) abide forever.

2:83  And when We took (the) covenant (from the) Children (of) Israel, "Not you will worship except Allah, and with [the] parents (be) good and (with) relatives and [the] orphans and the needy, and speak to [the] people good, and establish the prayer and give the zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you (were) refusing

 

 

Any problems with this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

3:108  These (are the) Verses (of) Allah. We recite them to you in truth. And not Allah wants injustice to the worlds.
3:109  And to Allah (belongs) whatever (is) in the heavens and whatever (is) in the earth. And to Allah will be returned the matters.
3:110  You are (the) best (of) people raised for the mankind - enjoining the right and forbidding [from] the wrong and believing in Allah. And if believed (the) People (of) the Book surely would have been good for them. Among them (are) [the] believers, but most of them (are) defiantly disobedient.

 

 

Any problems with this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

3:111  Never will they harm you except a hurt. And if they fight you, they will turn (towards) you the backs, then not they will be helped.
3:112  Struck on them the humiliation wherever that they are found except with a rope from Allah and a rope from the people. And they incurred wrath from Allah and struck on them the poverty. That (is) because they used to disbelieve in (the) Verses (of) Allah and they killed the Prophets without right. That (is) because they disobeyed and they used to transgress.

 

Any problems with this translation?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:24 PM, Daniel said:

3:113  They are not (the) same; among (the) People (of) the Book (is) a community standing (and) reciting (the) Verses (of) Allah (in the) hours (of) the night and they prostrate.
3:114  They believe in Allah and the Day the Last and they enjoin [with] the right and forbid [from] the wrong and they hasten in the good deeds. And those (are) from the righteous.
3:115  And whatever they do of a good, then never will they be denied it. And Allah (is) All-Knowing of the God-fearing.
3:116  Indeed, those who disbelieved, never will avail [for] them their wealth and not their children against Allah anything, and those (are the) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever.

 

Any problems with this translation?

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

3:199 Indeed, there are some among the People of the Book who truly believe in Allah and what has been revealed to you ˹believers˺ and what was revealed to them. They humble themselves before Allah—never trading Allah’s revelations for a fleeting gain. Their reward is with their Lord. Surely Allah is swift in reckoning.

 

Are those converts? Do they believe in Jesus as revealed in Quran??

 

The Quran, per your own translation, is teaching:

 

Indeed there are some among the jewish people who truly believe in Allah.  They humble themselves before Allah. 

 

Are they converts?  Of course not!  We are already practicing Islam.  

 

If the Quran was *actually* teaching hatred towards the jewish people it would not have ended the surah in this way.  Regarding Jesus?

 

 

That's a common view among the jewish people.  No one knows what Jesus actually preached, so, we stick to the Torah and Tanach.

 

 

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

 

The word timeless or for all time, no such thing in the verse. you have imputed your own interpretation in the verse. 

 

I didn't say that the word "timeless" is in the verse.  I brought other verses to support the interpretation that the revelation to the jewish people is timeless.  But, it's not only MY interpretation.

 

If you need more, there is a hadith where Muhammad defers to the Torah:

 

 

https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/abudawood/033_sat.html#:~:text=They placed a cushion for,who is learned among you.

 

Is there a problem with the translation above?  Is there context in the hadith that is missing here?

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

3:50 And I will confirm the Torah revealed before me and legalize some of what had been forbidden to you

 

Jesus has his own Sharia Law and he will legalize few things

 

That's not what it says.  It says that Jesus will "confirm the Torah revealed before".  That means that which is forbidden are NOT in the Torah which was given before.  That which is forbidden, are being forbidden in error.  But since we don't have Jesus' actual teachings, then we don't actually know what those are.

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[NaturaNaturans]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

That's not what it says.  It says that Jesus will "confirm the Torah revealed before".  That means that the thins forbidden are NOT in the Torah which was given before.  The things which were forbidden, are forbidden in error.  But since we don't have Jesus' actual teachings, then we don't actually know what those are.

Well, he did reject loads of aspects of judaism for one thing… basically put it upside down… and we have more of his teaching then any jewish prophet so..

Edited January 3 by NaturaNaturans

[NaturaNaturans]

You could say that «the sorces are bad,» and acadenics doesnt allways know what they are talking about. And that is true, but that goes for jews aswell

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

... we have more of his teaching then any jewish prophet so..

 

That's not what is taught in Islam.  I think that the Quran states it explicitly.  

 

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

he did reject loads of aspects of judaism for one thing… basically put it upside down…

 

That's an opinion which, to the best of my knowledge, is not supported in any way in the Christian bible.

 

You've stated in this thread that you don't know about judaism, nor the old testament?  So you would never know how to compare Jesus' teachings with judaism.

 

None the less, if you want to discuss it, please open another thread on it.  The teachings in the gospel compared to the teachings in torah and tanach are, very much, off-topic.

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

You could say that «the sorces are bad,» and acadenics doesnt allways know what they are talking about. And that is true, but that goes for jews aswell

 

Off topic.  Islam asserts that the gospels do not document Jesus' actual teachings.

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[NaturaNaturans]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

That's an opinion which, to the best of my knowledge, is not supported in any way in the Christian bible.

okay, this is just a short selection,  but it gives you are pretty good sense of christianities view on the jewish faith. Sorry, but it is what it is:

 

Spoiler

 

What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.
 

n: "We found this fellow perverting the nation and destroying the law and the prophets"

 

wiki:

In his Summa Theologiae I–II qq. 106–9, a section of the Summa known as the Treatise on Law, Saint Thomas Aquinas discusses the Law of Christ as the "New Law". He argues that it was virtually contained in the Old Law, that is the Old Testament, as a seed but only brought to perfection by Jesus Christ who perfectly fulfilled it. The ends of the Old and New are one and the same, being subjection to God's order, but they are different in that the New Law makes attaining the end possible. Meanwhile, since all law ultimately has reference to Divine Reason governing all things, the New Law contains and helps the human being fulfill the Natural Lawwhich prescribes acts of virtue. Thus, Aquinas defines the New Law as "chiefly the grace itself of the Holy Ghost, which is given to those who believe in Christ," but adds that it also "contains certain things that dispose us to receive the grace of the Holy Ghost, and pertaining to the use of that grace." Therefore, "the New Law is in the first place a law that is inscribed on our hearts, but that secondarily it is a written law". (ST I-II q. 106.3)^[4]

 

30 I and the Father are one.”

 

"for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you"

 

 

You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

 

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
 

Pilate believed Jesus was innocent and had not committed a crime deserving crucifixion. Matthew 27:24 notes, "So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves.'" 

In response, the Jewish crowd demanding the crucifixion of Jesus declared, "His blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27:25). 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

41 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

You could say that «the sorces are bad,»

 

This is what the Quran is teaching.  There was a revelation brought to the jewish people.  Jesus' earthly ministry confirmed precisely what is in the revelation brought to the jewish people.  The Quran confirms both of what is *actually* taught by Jesus and what is revealed to the jewish people.  There is no mention of anything being added by the Quran.  And.  It is confirmed that if Allah had wanted all three groups to be the one, then Allah would have willed it to be so.

 

5:43  But how can they appoint you a judge while they (have) with them the Taurat, in it (is the) Command (of) Allah? Then they turn away from after that, and not those (are) the believers.

 

5:44  Indeed, We revealed the Taurat in it (was) Guidance and light; judged by it the Prophets, those who had submitted (to Allah) for those who were Jews, and the Rabbis, and the scholars, with what they were entrusted of (the) Book (of) Allah and they were to it witnesses. So (do) not fear the people but fear Me, and (do) not sell My Verses (for) a price, little. And whoever (does) not judge by what has revealed Allah, then those [they] (are) the disbelievers.

 

5:45  And We ordained for them in it that - the life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and (for) wounds (is) retribution. But whoever gives charity with it, then it is an expiation for him. And whoever (does) not judge by what has revealed Allah, then those [they] (are) the wrongdoers.

 

5:46  And We sent on their footsteps Isa, son (of) Maryam, confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat, and We gave him the Injeel, in it (was) Guidance and light and confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat and a Guidance and an admonition for the God conscious.

 

5:47  And let judge (the) People (of) the Injeel by what has revealed Allah in it. And whoever (does) not judge by what revealed Allah then those [they] (are) the defiantly disobedient.

 

5:48  And We revealed to you the Book in [the] truth, confirming what (was) between his hands of the Book and a guardian over it. So judge between them by what has revealed Allah, and (do) not follow their vain desires when has come to you of the truth. For each We have made for you a law and a clear way. And if (had) willed Allah He (would have) made you a community one, [and] but to test you in what He (has) given you, so race (to) the good. To Allah you will return all. then He will inform you of what you were concerning it differing.

 

5:49  And that you judge between them by what (has) revealed Allah and (do) not follow their vain desires and beware of them lest they tempt you away from some (of) what has revealed Allah to you. And if they turn away then know that only intends Allah to afflict them for some (of) their sins. And indeed, many of the people (are) defiantly disobedient.

 

That's it.

 

44 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

he did reject loads of aspects of judaism for one thing… basically put it upside down

 

The Quran is teaching that Jesus confirmed the Torah.  So anything which is in the Christian bible which flips the Torah upside down, would not be consistent with what the Quran is teaching.

 

Let's not forget that the Quran asserts that Jesus was not ressurected, and did not "die for anyone's sins".  According to the Quran, there is no trinity.  The Quran teaches that Jesus is not the "Son of God."  That cancels Christianity.

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

okay, this is just a short selection,  but it gives you are pretty good sense of christianities view on the jewish faith. Sorry, but it is what it is:

 

  Hide contents

 

What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.
 

n: "We found this fellow perverting the nation and destroying the law and the prophets"

 

wiki:

In his Summa Theologiae I–II qq. 106–9, a section of the Summa known as the Treatise on Law, Saint Thomas Aquinas discusses the Law of Christ as the "New Law". He argues that it was virtually contained in the Old Law, that is the Old Testament, as a seed but only brought to perfection by Jesus Christ who perfectly fulfilled it. The ends of the Old and New are one and the same, being subjection to God's order, but they are different in that the New Law makes attaining the end possible. Meanwhile, since all law ultimately has reference to Divine Reason governing all things, the New Law contains and helps the human being fulfill the Natural Lawwhich prescribes acts of virtue. Thus, Aquinas defines the New Law as "chiefly the grace itself of the Holy Ghost, which is given to those who believe in Christ," but adds that it also "contains certain things that dispose us to receive the grace of the Holy Ghost, and pertaining to the use of that grace." Therefore, "the New Law is in the first place a law that is inscribed on our hearts, but that secondarily it is a written law". (ST I-II q. 106.3)^[4]

 

30 I and the Father are one.”

 

"for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you"

 

 

You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

 

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
 

Pilate believed Jesus was innocent and had not committed a crime deserving crucifixion. Matthew 27:24 notes, "So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves.'" 

In response, the Jewish crowd demanding the crucifixion of Jesus declared, "His blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27:25). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose you skipped the part where I mentioned that this is off-topic unless it is coming from the Quran.

 

 

 

[Daniel]

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

5:46  And We sent on their footsteps Isa, son (of) Maryam, confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat, and We gave him the Injeel, in it (was) Guidance and light and confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat and a Guidance and an admonition for the God conscious.

 

@NaturaNaturans,

 

Please see above.  This is on-topic.  The Quran asserts that Jesus was teaching Torah.  It's repeated twice for emphasis.

 

Quote

 

5:45  And We ordained for them in it that - the life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and (for) wounds (is) retribution. But whoever gives charity with it, then it is an expiation for him. And whoever (does) not judge by what has revealed Allah, then those [they] (are) the wrongdoers.
 

 

 

Here is confirmation, per the Quran, that eye-for-an-eye is percribed by Allah.  There's also a perscription to be charitable.  If there is something in the Christian bible ( the gospels ) which denies eye-for-and-eye retribution, that would be an example of false teachings attributed to Jesus in the gospels, per the Quran.

 

Per the Quran, the way to determine if Jesus *actually* taught it ( anything in the gospels ) is to test it against the Quran, then test it against the Torah. 

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

@NaturaNaturans,

 

Please see above.  This is on-topic.  The Quran asserts that Jesus was teaching Torah.  It's repeated twice for emphasis.

 

They also assert that the only even somewhat tolarable disbislivers are the christisns so… I do not understand why you go to such length trying to defend the most anti jewish religion in history. 
 

Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. (9:5, “verse of the sword”)

And:

Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden – such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled. (9:29, “verse of jizya”)

but then again, judaism and islam is quite similar, so maybe thats why

[Daniel]

29 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

They also assert that the only even somewhat tolarable disbislivers are the christisns so… 

 

That's not what the Quran teaches.  29:46-49.  It's been posted already.

 

Quote

 

Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. (9:5, “verse of the sword”)

And:

Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden – such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled. (9:29, “verse of jizya”)

 

I'm happy to discuss 9:29.  It is a favorite among anti-isalm ... enthusiasts.  Not just that verse but the whole surah.

 

Here is a link to the translation of surah 9.  If you would like to discuss it please read this and reply.  I'm not intersted in discussing it if the entire surah has not been read.

 

https://islamawakened.com/quran/9/st78.htm

 

So far there is no evidence that this is a dishonest translation.  There are multiple examples given where it chooses to translate honestly per the native arabic speaker who is contributing to this thread.

 

Quote

I do not understand why you go to such length trying to defend the most anti jewish religion in history. 

 

but then again, judaism and islam is quite similar, so maybe thats why

 

You have confirmed you don't know judaism, right?  You don't know the Old Testament?  You don't know the Quran?   Whatever opinions you have about judaism or islam, they are both born from ignorance?

 

The reason I am defending the Quran is because it is being attacked, imo, unfairly.   Since you don't know the Old Testament, you don't know that the hebrew bible is much much harsher towards the disbelieving jews than the Quran.

 

You don't know what you don't know dude.  When are you going to learn to stop making judgements in ignorance?

 

Ezekiel:

22:15
And I will scatter you among the nations, and disperse you in the countries, and will consume your filthiness from you.

 

22:16
And you shall be profaned by yourself in the sight of the nations, and you shall know that I am the Lord.

 

22:17
And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

 

22:18
Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of the, bronze, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are the dross of silver.

 

22:19
Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

 

22:20
As they gather silver, and bronze, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in my anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.

 

22:21
And I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst.

 

22:22
As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; and you shall know that I, the Lord, have poured out my fury upon you.

 

22:23
And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

 

22:24
Son of man, say to her, You are the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.

 

22:25
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst, like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst.

 

22:26
Her priests have violated my Torah, and have profaned my holy things; they have not differentiated between the holy and profane, nor have they taught the difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hidden their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

 

22:27
Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, shedding blood, and destroying souls, to get dishonest gain.

 

22:28
And her prophets have daubed them with whitewash, seeing false visions, and divining lies to them, saying, Thus says the Lord God, when the Lord has not spoken.

 

22:29
The people of the land have used oppression, and committed robbery, and have wronged the poor and needy; indeed, they have oppressed the foreigner wrongfully.

 

22:30
And I sought a man among them, who could build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found none.

 

22:31
Therefore have I poured out my indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath; their own way have I rewarded upon their heads, says the Lord God.
 

That's pretty bad, dude.  All of Israel.  Gathered and melted with the fury of God's wrath.  God tried to find a single good individual among us ( the jewish people ) and found none.

 

Jeremiah:

2:22
For though you wash you with lye, and use much soap, yet the stain of your iniquity is before me, said the Lord God.

 

2:23
How can you say, I am not polluted, I have not gone after Baalim? See your way in the valley, know what you have done; you are a restive young camel doubling back on its tracks;

 

2:24
A wild ass used to the wilderness, sniffing the wind in its desire; in its lust who can turn it away? All those who seek it need not weary themselves; in its month they shall find it.

 

2:25
Withhold your foot from being unshod, and your throat from thirst; but you said, There is no hope; no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go.

 

2:26
As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets,

 

2:27

Who say to a piece of wood, You are my father; and to a stone, You have brought me forth; for they have turned their back to me, and not their face; but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.
 

The jewish people are wild, lustful, donkeys.  The Lord will go after "strangers".  All of us should be ashamed:  Kings, princes, and priests.  We're idolators, per Jeremiah's prophecy.  There is nothing in the Quran which compares to this in regard to jewish people.  The Quran is gentle with us ( the jewish people ) compared to this.

 

So, how can you look at the Quran and judge it?  You don't know what's written in the hebrew bible.  When you compare judaism to islam, I know that you intend it to be an insult against both islam and judaism.  It doesn't bother me, because I'm confident that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[NaturaNaturans]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

the Old Testament, you don't know that the hebrew bible is much much harsher towards the disbelieving jews than the Quran.

Thats the point, two very intolerant religions

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Thats the point, two very intolerant religions

 

If you don''t know judaism, and you don't know Islam, what are you talking about?  

[NaturaNaturans]

Just now, Daniel said:

 

If you don''t know judaism, and you don't know Islam, what are you talking about?  

You just qouted me about of intolerant and hatefull and primitive verses from the torah yourself (it is a reason it is called the old testament). I am not even Christian, but i dont see why Your go to response to murder snd jizra would be: but we are even more hatefull.

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

You just qouted me about of intolerant and hatefull and primitive verses from the torah yourself (it is a reason it is called the old testament).

 

You'd need to read the remainder of the story in Jeremiah and Ezekiel before making that judgement.

 

Quote

I am not even Christian, but i dont see why Your go to response to murder snd jizra would be: but we are even more hatefull.

 

In order to discuss Surah 9, it's important to read Surah 9. Have you done that?  Are you still operating from a position of ignorance.  That is my "go to response".  My go to response is:  "have you read it yet?"

 

Maybe this will help you "see why" I replied the way I did:

 

50 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

the most anti jewish religion in history. 

 

The Quran is not any more "anti-jewish" than the hebrew bible.  The quotes that have been brought are not "hateful".  They are rebuke.  Whether or not Islam is more or less anti-jewish than christianity is debatable, but, also off-topic since the topic is the Quran.

 

And, it's not lost on me that you're actually making judgements about me as well, but, I do not value those judgements.

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[NaturaNaturans]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

The Quran is not any more "anti-jewish" than the hebrew bible.  The quotes that have been brought are not "hateful".  They are rebuke.  Whether or not Islam is more or less anti-jewish than christianity is debatable, but, also off-topic since the topic is the Quran.

Guess it depends on what culture and millenia you are from. From most of the modern worlds perspective it is pretty fed up to order a man to sacrifice his child, kill animal because Yahwe finds it funny or tax infidiels until you can convert them by sword. Chosen people, gentiles and destroying everyone when you feel like it is pretty nazi as welll.

 

Quote

And, it's not lost on me that you're actually making judgements about me as well, but, I do not value those judgements.

It is really not. I am not going to pretend that i dont find the torah and quran very untastefull, but im not used to people basing their identity around… well, stories

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

You could say that «the sorces are bad,» and acadenics doesnt allways know what they are talking about. And that is true, but that goes for jews aswell

 

And everyone    else   ( except Daniel    )

 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

You'd need to read the remainder of the story in Jeremiah and Ezekiel before making that judgement.

 

 

In order to discuss Surah 9, it's important to read Surah 9. Have you done that?  Are you still operating from a position of ignorance.  That is my "go to response".  My go to response is:  "have you read it yet?"

 

Maybe this will help you "see why" I replied the way I did:

 

 

The Quran is not any more "anti-jewish" than the hebrew bible.  The quotes that have been brought are not "hateful".  They are rebuke.  Whether or not Islam is more or less anti-jewish than christianity is debatable, but, also off-topic since the topic is the Quran.

 

And, it's not lost on me that you're actually making judgements about me as well, but, I do not value those judgements.

 

 

Now the Hebrew Bible is anti Jewish  and Islam is tolerant .

 

Who you working for Daniel ?

[NaturaNaturans]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

And everyone    else   ( except Daniel    )

 

 

 

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Guess it depends on what culture and millenia you are from. From most of the modern worlds perspective it is pretty fed up to order a man to sacrifice his child, kill animal because Yahwe finds it funny or tax infidiels until you can convert them by sword. Chosen people, gentiles and destroying everyone when you feel like it is pretty nazi as welll.

 

Lol.  Nazi?  You just lost the argument.

 

Sacrifice his child?  You clearly didn't read the story carefully.

 

The tax?  Have you read about it?  Of course not.  

 

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

It is really not. I am not going to pretend that i dont find the torah and quran very untastefull, but im not used to people basing their identity around… well, stories

 

I'll just leave this here for you and the others to reflect on for the purpose of determing how much credibility to grant to your posts here:

 

On 12/23/2023 at 9:10 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

We never learned about OT in church and school, it was all about the son of god, and the «sacrifice and ressuraction» symbology.

 

So, you don't know what's in the Torah or Tanach, but you believe the negative stories about it?  Got it.

 

And you refuse to educate yourself on it?  Got it.

 

And you have no problem judging it, knowiing, and admitting you don't know what's in it.

 

That ^^ is what's wrong with the world, dude.  People pretending they KNOW things... Gratefully those with power and influence operate from a more fact-based point-of-view.

 

Edited January 3 by Daniel

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

It's just a matter of writing a language no one understands...

 

Not true.  All you need to do is *actually* read the text in english to see you're wrong about child sacrifice.  All you need to do is read the translation of the Quran in english that I brought, and read the translations of Ezekiel and Jeremiah that I brought to see that the Quran is not as harsh a rebuke as the hebrew bible.

 

All you need to do for this is read... in english.  Why won't you do that?