Mark Foote Posted January 7 On 1/1/2024 at 1:13 PM, snowymountains said: In the Anapanassati Sutta, the Buddha mentions the Parimukha. The Parimukha ( nostrils or upper lip ) is discussed in the Pali Canon, you can look at jhana-vibhango, 537. The choice between nostrils or upper lip depends on where the meditators feels the breath most. Off - Sutta ( but common sense ): This ultimately depends a lot on the shape of the nose Also the reference to the "whole body" is a reference to the whole body of the breath/the totality of the breath, not our physical body. Not a big fan of the quoted translation but no need to eat a hat either. Btw, in Zen the emphasis on the Hara probably is older than Dogen, don't know its exact origin though. As there's no "Canon" for all lineages in Zen, the emphasis on the Hara can only be an practical remark on what is commonly taught, not a universal rule. Imho the point of focus chosen by the historical Buddha is probably the best ( but not the only one ). But at the end of the day, any point is ok, as long as it produces a stable Nimitta. Thanks for the dialogue, snowymountains. In the Anapanassati Sutta, the Buddha mentions the Parimukha. The Parimukha ( nostrils or upper lip ) is discussed in the Pali Canon, you can look at jhana-vibhango, 537. From the footnotes on Thanissaro Bhikkyu's translation of Anapanasati: To the fore (parimukham): The Abhidhamma takes an etymological approach to this term, defining it as around (pari-) the mouth (mukham). In the Vinaya, however, it is used in a context (Cv.V.27.4) where it undoubtedly means the front of the chest. There is also the possibility that the term could be used idiomatically as "to the front," which is how I have translated it here. I don't accept the interpretations of the authors of the Abhidhamma, they don't match what's actually taught in the sermons of the first four Nikayas, in the few cases I've had occasion to examine--like this one. I'm sticking with the first four Nikayas, which are considered to be the most historically accurate (by A. K. Warder in his "indian Buddhism" and I believe others). In Thanissaro's translation of Anapanasati (and I. B. Horner's translation for the Pali Text Society is very similar), the sentence reads: There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.(https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html) I think there may be prediliction among Southeast Asian Theravadins to teach a focus on the nostrils or the upper lip. Anapansati is all about setting mindfulness to the fore, is it not? No toast for Mark, and I could almost taste it, ha ha! Also the reference to the "whole body" is a reference to the whole body of the breath/the totality of the breath, not our physical body. Absolutely right. Horner goes so far as to translate "whole (breath-)body". I'm certain you're right about the emphasis on the hara predating Rujing. Not sure there are references to it in Dogen. I wonder about where teachings that emphasized the hara first showed up in Asia---maybe Shaolin? "... the point of focus chosen by the historical Buddha..." Unclear to me what you're referring to as "the point of focus". Gautama did speak of "one-pointedness", and of "one-pointedness of mind", and indeed he asserted that "one-pointedness of mind" was the fundamental characteristic of concentration: And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments. (MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) I would say that "one-pointedness" is more like: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) The attention placed by necessity is one-pointed. I have recommended to friends that they look for the experience right before they fall asleep, and several have reported better success at falling asleep as a result. For me, "one-pointedness" is also the key to waking up--it's kind of an interface between the unconscious and consciousness, and can be the source of the activity of the body: The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”. (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 7 8 hours ago, Mark Foote said: Thanks for the dialogue, snowymountains. In the Anapanassati Sutta, the Buddha mentions the Parimukha. The Parimukha ( nostrils or upper lip ) is discussed in the Pali Canon, you can look at jhana-vibhango, 537. From the footnotes on Thanissaro Bhikkyu's translation of Anapanasati: To the fore (parimukham): The Abhidhamma takes an etymological approach to this term, defining it as around (pari-) the mouth (mukham). In the Vinaya, however, it is used in a context (Cv.V.27.4) where it undoubtedly means the front of the chest. There is also the possibility that the term could be used idiomatically as "to the front," which is how I have translated it here. I don't accept the interpretations of the authors of the Abhidhamma, they don't match what's actually taught in the sermons of the first four Nikayas, in the few cases I've had occasion to examine--like this one. I'm sticking with the first four Nikayas, which are considered to be the most historically accurate (by A. K. Warder in his "indian Buddhism" and I believe others). In Thanissaro's translation of Anapanasati (and I. B. Horner's translation for the Pali Text Society is very similar), the sentence reads: There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.(https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html) I think there may be prediliction among Southeast Asian Theravadins to teach a focus on the nostrils or the upper lip. Anapansati is all about setting mindfulness to the fore, is it not? No toast for Mark, and I could almost taste it, ha ha! Also the reference to the "whole body" is a reference to the whole body of the breath/the totality of the breath, not our physical body. Absolutely right. Horner goes so far as to translate "whole (breath-)body". I'm certain you're right about the emphasis on the hara predating Rujing. Not sure there are references to it in Dogen. I wonder about where teachings that emphasized the hara first showed up in Asia---maybe Shaolin? "... the point of focus chosen by the historical Buddha..." Unclear to me what you're referring to as "the point of focus". Gautama did speak of "one-pointedness", and of "one-pointedness of mind", and indeed he asserted that "one-pointedness of mind" was the fundamental characteristic of concentration: And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments. (MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) I would say that "one-pointedness" is more like: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) The attention placed by necessity is one-pointed. I have recommended to friends that they look for the experience right before they fall asleep, and several have reported better success at falling asleep as a result. For me, "one-pointedness" is also the key to waking up--it's kind of an interface between the unconscious and consciousness, and can be the source of the activity of the body: The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”. (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) The Parimukha is front of the face, not front in general. Mukha is face/mouth. So containing the only source to Anapasati, the chest area is still excluded. Imo even taking Anapasati in isolation it's sufficient, as it's impossible to feel the breath in other places in the front of the face but other Pali texts are even more detailed. I see from your response that Bhikkhu Thanissaro assigns a different interpretation, all I can say is that I fully trust the interpretation of the senior Theravada monastic who teaches me. So here I guess each will trust the sources they trust and their translation/interpretation, so you we'll agree to disagree on this. By point of focus, I refer to point of focus of the first four steps of the Anapanasati, the Samatha part of it as this is the part where the question of having the awareness on nostrils/upper lip vs hara is mostly relevant. You open some new and interesting points but today unfortunately I don't have much time, so in short, - re sleep, Samatha before sleep is a good practice. Eg In dream & sleep yogas ( these are not Theravada practices ) it is common to include a Samatha meditation step. - re bridging conscious to our subconscious and unconscious. In my view that's the most important aspect of meditation. Most meditations do that to some extent, insight meditation does this more so than others. Samatha ( which pre-existed the historical Buddha) is not enough for this and hence the historical Buddha provided us with his insight meditation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Foote Posted January 7 (edited) 9 hours ago, snowymountains said: The Parimukha is front of the face, not front in general. Mukha is face/mouth. So containing the only source to Anapasati, the chest area is still excluded. Imo even taking Anapasati in isolation it's sufficient, as it's impossible to feel the breath in other places in the front of the face but other Pali texts are even more detailed. I see from your response that Bhikkhu Thanissaro assigns a different interpretation, all I can say is that I fully trust the interpretation of the senior Theravada monastic who teaches me. So here I guess each will trust the sources they trust and their translation/interpretation, so you we'll agree to disagree on this. I bear in mind that there have been many changes in the interpretations of the teaching, even in the Theravadin tradition. In the end, I'm going with: Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)? Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. (Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108) Quote By point of focus, I refer to point of focus of the first four steps of the Anapanasati, the Samatha part of it as this is the part where the question of having the awareness on nostrils/upper lip vs hara is mostly relevant. Isn't the question really the meaning of "one-pointedness", of "one-pointedness of mind"? That's the consistent thing in the four initial concentrations, in my reading, and in my practice these days. Quote You open some new and interesting points but today unfortunately I don't have much time, so in short, I'll wait, then! Quote - re sleep, Samatha before sleep is a good practice. Eg In dream & sleep yogas ( these are not Theravada practices ) it is common to include a Samatha meditation step. - re bridging conscious to our subconscious and unconscious. In my view that's the most important aspect of meditation. Most meditations do that to some extent, insight meditation does this more so than others. Samatha ( which pre-existed the historical Buddha) is not enough for this and hence the historical Buddha provided us with his insight meditation. I don't practice sleep or dream yogas, I just look to fall into one-pointedness of mind as I am waking up or falling asleep. The thing about insight meditation--how exactly is a person supposed to see the chain of dependent causation for themselves, without experiencing the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving? And to do that, is to have arrived at the concentration that eluded Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta (Gautama's teachers), and which required the supremely talented Gautama the Shakyan six years under the Bodhi tree--right? I do see that action of the "consciousness-informed body" is possible, without "determinate thought". From that, I have an appreciation for the illusory nature of identifications of self in the five groups, but I can't claim to have cut off the hindrances like cutting off a palm tree at the stump, and I can't claim to have the perfect wisdom of insight into dependent causation. I only have enough to appreciate Gautama's way of living, mindfulness in the four arisings, which I believe involved regular experience of the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. I don't hear anybody teaching that. Maybe they're teaching it, but not in so many words? Edited January 7 by Mark Foote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 8 4 hours ago, Mark Foote said: I bear in mind that there have been many changes in the interpretations of the teaching, even in the Theravadin tradition. In the end, I'm going with: Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)? Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. (Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108) Isn't the question really the meaning of "one-pointedness", of "one-pointedness of mind"? That's the consistent thing in the four initial concentrations, in my reading, and in my practice these days. I'll wait, then! I don't practice sleep or dream yogas, I just look to fall into one-pointedness of mind as I am waking up or falling asleep. The thing about insight meditation--how exactly is a person supposed to see the chain of dependent causation for themselves, without experiencing the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving? And to do that, is to have arrived at the concentration that eluded Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta (Gautama's teachers), and which required the supremely talented Gautama the Shakyan six years under the Bodhi tree--right? I do see that action of the "consciousness-informed body" is possible, without "determinate thought". From that, I have an appreciation for the illusory nature of identifications of self in the five groups, but I can't claim to have cut off the hindrances like cutting off a palm tree at the stump, and I can't claim to have the perfect wisdom of insight into dependent causation. I only have enough to appreciate Gautama's way of living, mindfulness in the four arisings, which I believe involved regular experience of the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. I don't hear anybody teaching that. Maybe they're teaching it, but not in so many words? In my experience point of focus doesn't really matter that much, as long as it is narrow. It's fully possible to get a stable Nimitta when doing the Zen variant of meditation on breath with abdominal breathing and the awareness being there. The way I used the term point of focus above, is such that I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils. When breathing stops and a stable Nimitta appears the focus is there but "there" not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness. Or in the four immeasurables, for those who specialise in that and do enter deep states from these medications, there's no really a spatial point of focus. I don't think we can be in Samatha states during the day btw, unless it's a day dedicated to meditation. Eg when we work we're typically in beta brainwaves, in Samatha meditations we're at gamma ( not theta as stated in some books, theta is common in other types of meditation ). Eg I don't see how I could be in gamma while delivering for work, Samatha is also calming, while work typically requires some degree of alertness. Samatha and Insight are not really in competition. They're both needed but Samatha in isolation cannot reveal eg the impermanent nature of thoughts, feelings and phenomena, nor how they link to each other, which is why the historical Buddha developed Insight meditation. It's also important to note that ecstatic states from Samatha are also impermanent and there should be no clinging to them as well. In the Anapanasati the first steps are Samatha, so that the mind calms, slows down, then insight follows. It's not really a requirement to first reach one of the four Jhana states linked to Samatha before starting insight meditation. The various schools of how to do insight are very much connected to schools of Buddhist psychology. This is a deep topic which takes time to study, something which I'm currently studying and will likely keep doing for some time. What I would recommend is to do insight according to any of the popular schools. Where a teacher can help is by making a statement like oh and doing insight in this way is equivalent to that philosophical school's interpretation of the 12 links the other way is equivalent to that and this is why today we'll do it like X and in a month we'll do Y. Independently reproducing that sort of statement and curriculum from the teacher however is a different story. Tbh at that advanced level I've only seen monastics that are really dedicated and at the same time they have been monastics for multiple decades , teachers in Buddhist psychology, have spent multiple years in silent retreats. They're at a completely different level, it's like comparing an Olympic athlete to someone who trains 3 evenings per week. It's not realistic in my view to expect to reach that level ( unless one can and wants to follow a similar monastic path ). This is the way a good teacher is invaluable, not because there are secret teachings in Theravada ( there aren't), nor because of Guru-type of relationships which don't exist in Theravada, nor because of direct mind transmissions. It's simply because a teacher can be so far ahead that they can save huge amounts of time simply because they know so much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Foote Posted January 8 (edited) 21 hours ago, snowymountains said: In my experience point of focus doesn't really matter that much, as long as it is narrow. It's fully possible to get a stable Nimitta when doing the Zen variant of meditation on breath with abdominal breathing and the awareness being there. The way I used the term point of focus above, is such that I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils. When breathing stops and a stable Nimitta appears the focus is there but "there" not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness. Or in the four immeasurables, for those who specialise in that and do enter deep states from these medications, there's no really a spatial point of focus. I don't think we can be in Samatha states during the day btw, unless it's a day dedicated to meditation. Eg when we work we're typically in beta brainwaves, in Samatha meditations we're at gamma ( not theta as stated in some books, theta is common in other types of meditation ). Eg I don't see how I could be in gamma while delivering for work, Samatha is also calming, while work typically requires some degree of alertness. Samatha and Insight are not really in competition. They're both needed but Samatha in isolation cannot reveal eg the impermanent nature of thoughts, feelings and phenomena, nor how they link to each other, which is why the historical Buddha developed Insight meditation. It's also important to note that ecstatic states from Samatha are also impermanent and there should be no clinging to them as well. In the Anapanasati the first steps are Samatha, so that the mind calms, slows down, then insight follows. It's not really a requirement to first reach one of the four Jhana states linked to Samatha before starting insight meditation. This is the way a good teacher is invaluable, not because there are secret teachings in Theravada ( there aren't), nor because of Guru-type of relationships which don't exist in Theravada, nor because of direct mind transmissions. It's simply because a teacher can be so far ahead that they can save huge amounts of time simply because they know so much. You're sold on teachers, I get it. I do think there is a physical component to the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) the activity of the body in inbreathing and outbreathing, a component that can be conveyed by the physical presence of a teacher. I don't think all teachers, especially in the West, are living in such a way as to convey that, but I have met teachers who were. Quote The way I used the term point of focus above, is such that I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils. When breathing stops and a stable Nimitta appears the focus is there but "there" not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness. Or in the four immeasurables, for those who specialise in that and do enter deep states from these medications, there's no really a spatial point of focus. Here's Gautama's description of the fifth limb of concentration, the survey-sign (nimitta?): Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19) When the "survey-sign" was spoken of, it was spoken of immediately after the description of the fourth concentration, the fourth limb of concentration. I believe it was a way to return to cessation in inbreathing and outbreathing in the four elements of the mindfulness of states of mind: (One) makes up one’s mind: Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed; ;emphasis added) As to a lack of one-pointedness in the further states, how then would those states be a part of right concentration? And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments. (MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added) The path of the arahant is ten-fold instead of eight-fold, meaning that path includes the elements above as well as right knowledge and right freedom, but I don't believe the nature of right concentration changes. You said, "I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils." I mean a spatial point too, when I say "one-pointedness", just that the spatial point I'm referring to is the place that necessity places attention, in the movement of breath. As I wrote in my last post, on my own site: There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) I would say that everybody experiences "one-pointedness" right before they fall asleep, if they can retain the presence of mind long enough. You said, "'there (is) not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness"--I would say there is a sense of place, a singular sense of the location of awareness. No object. There can be a sense of gravity at that place, too--no surprise, as the otoliths are inside the vestibulars. Edited January 8 by Mark Foote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted January 9 (edited) 4 hours ago, Mark Foote said: You're sold on teachers, I get it. I do think there is a physical component to the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) the activity of the body in inbreathing and outbreathing, a component that can be conveyed by the physical presence of a teacher. I don't think all teachers, especially in the West, are living in such a way as to convey that, but I have met teachers who were. Here's Gautama's description of the fifth limb of concentration, the survey-sign (nimitta?): Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19) When the "survey-sign" was spoken of, it was spoken of immediately after the description of the fourth concentration, the fourth limb of concentration. I believe it was a way to return to cessation in inbreathing and outbreathing in the four elements of the mindfulness of states of mind: (One) makes up one’s mind: Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed; ;emphasis added) As to a lack of one-pointedness in the further states, how then would those states be a part of right concentration? And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments. (MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added) The path of the arahant is ten-fold instead of eight-fold, meaning that path includes the elements above as well as right knowledge and right freedom, but I don't believe the nature of right concentration changes. You said, "I mean a spatial point, eg nostrils." I mean a spatial point too, when I say "one-pointedness", just that the spatial point I'm referring to is the place that necessity places attention, in the movement of breath. As I wrote in my last post, on my own site: There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) I would say that everybody experiences "one-pointedness" right before they fall asleep, if they can retain the presence of mind long enough. You said, "'there (is) not a real spatial point in the 3D space around us, we still have one pointedness"--I would say there is a sense of place, a singular sense of the location of awareness. No object. There can be a sense of gravity at that place, too--no surprise, as the otoliths are inside the vestibulars. It's a lot of mini-topics that are mixed in your response, I'll try to separate to see them in isolation on the nimitta: The nimitta can appear with any samatha meditation, including samatha on breath, without being limited to the context of anapanasati. The nimitta appears even before the first Jhana, it's just not stable yet, it's pretty obvious what it is when it appears, though two different meditators may sees it with e.g. different colors. In a breath samatha, when the nimitta is stable, it covers everything, also the breath stops ( just for a little time in the 1st Jhana ). So a concentration on the breath is impossible ( because it does not exist ), attention moves to the only thing left to focus on, the (now stable) nimitta. on the point of focus: I mentioned how I defined it before and how I differentiate it to one-pointedness (which is more general in that it includes non-spatial points, e.g. a nimitta). If you want to follow Suzuki for the point of focus, I don't think the end result will differ, in terms of Pali I mentioned before the translation and interpretation I trust/parimukha discussion. On the way you interpret the anapanasati: If I understand what you say correctly, you say first enter jhanas by 3/4 then do insight. It's one of the ways to interpret it, a popular one actually. However the issue in this is what happens if you don't enter Jhanas by the end of 3/4 on that day? Stop meditating there ? For all practical purposes it's impossible to be certain to enter Jhanas every single day when you meditate. The Jhanas are not a requirement to do anapanasati, as is this the only popular way to interpret it. But at this point even though I have enjoyed our discussion so far, I'll refrain as I didn't join these forums to reproduce my notes and experiences on Buddhist meditations in Q&A format, as unfortunately I don't have time for it. I'd really recommend to work with a teacher, instead of trying to figure out all these things alone . What you are doing is honestly impressive, eg I probably wouldn't had been able to figure almost anything out by working alone using translations of the Pali. However, this approach runs into all sorts of practical difficulties. There are also tricky points where you need to make assumptions, that is assign your own interpretation either explicitly or implicitly. If you don't like western teachers, for Theravada you can find teachers from the east, senior monastics do visit centres in the west, you can develop a relationship with them there, then meet over Skype till they visit again etc. Imo that is the way to progress, it will be much more time efficient than using multiple translation sources and discussing these topics in an internet forum format. Edited January 9 by snowymountains Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted February 15 On 23/11/2023 at 7:25 AM, Maddie said: Typically when faced these kind of questions I look at what did the Buddha himself teach? He said nothing about this. Some say there is more than one manifestation of the Buddha, such as Vairochana, Akshobhya, Ratnasambhava, Amitabha, and Amoghasiddhi. Garab Dorje (c. 665), an Indian sage purportedly from Oddiyana. He is traditionally held to be the first human teacher of Dzogchen and was the first human to receive the complete direct transmission teachings of Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen from Vajrasattva. Several sources in the Pali Canon depict the idea that there are multiple Buddhas and that there will be many future Buddhas, all of which must train as bodhisattas. Vajrasattva is a bodhisattva in the Mahayana, Mantrayana/Vajrayana Buddhist traditions. In Chinese Buddhism and the Japanese Shingon tradition, Vajrasattva is the esoteric aspect of the bodhisattva Samantabhadra and is commonly associated with the student practitioner who through the master's teachings, attains an ever-enriching subtle and rarefied grounding in their esoteric practice. In Tibetan Buddhism, Vajrasattva is associated with the sambhogakāya and purification practice. The above was mostly a copy and paste. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tao.te.kat Posted Thursday at 10:12 AM (edited) Dzogchen history contains a lot of debate as is mostly based on relatively recent Termas (findings) that claim to be very old. But no proof of it. "Recent" means from XII century or so. A lot of information here (I hope it's allowed): Dzogchen Historiography - Dharma Wheel For example, Bardo Thodol is supposed to be a text from Padmasambhava (VIII century) but it was found on the XIV century by Karma Lingpa... Edited Thursday at 10:17 AM by tao.te.kat 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
