Carl Jung on individuation

[NaturaNaturans]

I have now edited the title and added a few qoutes from his other works, because i belive a general discussion on individuation might be more rewarding.
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Just thought this video was worth sharing.

Hope you found value in it if you gave it a go.

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“. . .when all is said and done, our own existence is an experiment of nature, an attempt at a new synthesis.”
 

“Individuation means becoming an “in-dividual,” and, in so far as “individuality” embraces our innermost, last, and incomparable uniqueness, it also implies becoming one’s own self. We could therefore translate individuation as “coming to selfhood” 

“If you sum up what people tell you about their experiences [on the path of individuation], you can formulate it this way: They came to themselves, they could accept themselves, they were able to become reconciled to themselves, and thus were reconciled to adverse circumstances and events.”

“[W]isdom begins only when one takes things as they are. . .So it is a healing attitude when one can agree with the facts as they are. . .only then can we thrive.”
 

All qoutes are from Jung. It is derived from this article, where the writer delves deeper in to the topic:

https://academyofideas.com/2021/05/carl-jung-self-development-path-of-individuation/

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Just thought this video was worth sharing.

 

Love-it.

[NaturaNaturans]

I am posting this qoute from Daniel here, because i am hoping we can Get some life in to this discussion:

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The following song choice was inspired by the recent thread started on individualization, specifically the passage of Carl Jung read by Alan Watts, but there are also elements of it that link up with the Hopsin song that was posted above, "Fly".

 

(…)

 

"Tether" asks a simple question.

 

"Can we bring it together?"
"Can we call from the mountain to the valley below?"
"Can we make it better?
"Do we tether the hawk, do we tether the dove?"

 

Accepting these opposing forces, from the mountain above to the valley below... accepting them for the purpose of releasing them, not tethering them, strongly resonates with me.  While at the same time, if they are both accepted and released as a pair they will moderate each other naturally.  One becomes the other in an infinite glorious dance.  This, imo, is precisely what Jung was describing in the passage which was posted. 

 

 

 ... Open your eyes, open your mind, and fly ...

 

 

... it is this that makes possible the reunion of the waring halves ...

 

 

... do we tether the hawk? ...

... do we tether the dove? ...

 

... do we leave it unanswered? ...

... open your mind? and fly? ...

 

... the reunion of the waring halves?  ...

 

... walking a tightrope? ...

... bridging the gap? ...

 

... bring it together? ...

... do we tether? ...

 

It is strange, dont you think, that we are not one entiry, If you know what i mean.

 

As far as i understand, the two halves are who we naturally are, and the part of us we repress becaus of society.

 

Ill qoute my self from another topic, because i belive it is relevant:

 

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At the moment, i am «working» on being completly authentic. Autheniticity in words, action and honesty. I think a lot of earlier stress/struggeling was a result of believing and trying to be someone i am not. I thought i knew who i am, but seems like that was how other people thought i should be instead. The result was a constant fight against myself and a lack of purpose.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

… the two halves are who we naturally are …

 

I agree. I forged an integration of the two.

 

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… i am «working» on being completly authentic …

 

… I thought i knew who i am, but seems like that was how other people thought i should be instead. …

 

Ime a balance is needed. Too little authenticity made me feel unreal but too much of it made me harsh. 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Is individuation the opposite of non-dual?

 

On 03/11/2023 at 8:59 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

… We could therefore translate individuation as “coming to selfhood” … (Jung)

Individuation - selfhood. 

 

On 13/11/2023 at 12:37 AM, stirling said:

Anatta, or no-self is non-dual understanding from the Buddhist perspective.

Non-dual - no-self. 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Cobie

[NaturaNaturans]

15 hours ago, Cobie said:

Is individuation the opposite of non-dual?

 

Individuation - selfhood. 

 

Non-dual - no-self. 

 

Hm, i am not going to pretend i understand Anatta, because I do not. But non-dual (monist? Wholeness?) seems to to be what individuation is about, and not it opposite (but again, I have no understanding of the term Anatta.)

Jung identified four elements of the psyche: ego (the conscious, who we think we are), the shadow (the unconscious parts we suppress), the persona (the social mask) and the self (all of the three combined). So, as I understand it, individuation is as you rightly say, coming to selfhood, and this is done (again, my understanding) by integrating all the elements in a healthy way and become whole. I don't think it is about "destroying" the persona or acting out every aspect of the shadow no matter what, but accepting and integrating them. 

 

At the moment I am reading "Thus spoke Zarathustra", and there is an interesting chapter called "The three metamorphoses." I think  its a great piece of work, and only a page or two long, so ill include it in full in the spoiler below. Anyway, the first step is that of a camel: wandering dutifully in the desert with a heavy load, like a hard-working and conscientious servant (morals, traditions, rules etc. imposed on it by society). In the second stage, the camel transforms into a lion. The lion rejects the traditional limitations and values forced on it by the others, rebels against them, and destroys them. The third metamorphosis is from lion to child. I found this a little peculiar at first, having a child as the final stage, so to speak. But considering their innocence, joy and creativity, and their potential to grow and shape themselves and their surroundings, I think it makes perfect sense.

 

Maybe it seems a little random, but I do believe that the camel, lion and the child can be seen as the persona, the destruction of it and finally, the integration, authenticity, and individuation of the child. 

 

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“Who among the philosophers before me was in any way a psychologist? Before me there simply was no psychology” (Ecce Homo, Nietzche)

 

Thus spoke Zarathustra:

1. The Three Metamorphoses

Spoiler

THREE metamorphoses of the spirit do I designate to you: how the spirit becometh a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a child.

Many heavy things are there for the spirit, the strong load-bearing spirit in which reverence dwelleth: for the heavy and the heaviest longeth its strength.

What is heavy? so asketh the load-bearing spirit; then kneeleth it down like the camel, and wanteth to be well laden.

What is the heaviest thing, ye heroes? asketh the load-bearing spirit, that I may take it upon me and rejoice in my strength.

Is it not this: To humiliate oneself in order to mortify one's pride? To exhibit one's folly in order to mock at one's wisdom?

Or is it this: To desert our cause when it celebrateth its triumph? To ascend high mountains to tempt the tempter?

Or is it this: To feed on the acorns and grass of knowledge, and for the sake of truth to suffer hunger of soul?

Or is it this: To be sick and dismiss comforters, and make friends of the deaf, who never hear thy requests?

Or is it this: To go into foul water when it is the water of truth, and not disclaim cold frogs and hot toads?

Or is it this: To love those who despise us, and give one's hand to the phantom when it is going to frighten us?

All these heaviest things the load-bearing spirit taketh upon itself: and like the camel, which, when laden, hasteneth into the wilderness, so hasteneth the spirit into its wilderness.

But in the loneliest wilderness happeneth the second metamorphosis: here the spirit becometh a lion; freedom will it capture, and lordship in its own wilderness.

Its last Lord it here seeketh: hostile will it be to him, and to its last God; for victory will it struggle with the great dragon.

What is the great dragon which the spirit is no longer inclined to call Lord and God? "Thou-shalt," is the great dragon called. But the spirit of the lion saith, "I will."

"Thou-shalt," lieth in its path, sparkling with gold- a scale-covered beast; and on every scale glittereth golden, "Thou shalt!"

The values of a thousand years glitter on those scales, and thus speaketh the mightiest of all dragons: "All the values of things- glitter on me.

All values have already been created, and all created values- do I represent. Verily, there shall be no 'I will' any more. Thus speaketh the dragon.

My brethren, wherefore is there need of the lion in the spirit? Why sufficeth not the beast of burden, which renounceth and is reverent?

To create new values- that, even the lion cannot yet accomplish: but to create itself freedom for new creating- that can the might of the lion do.

To create itself freedom, and give a holy Nay even unto duty: for that, my brethren, there is need of the lion.

To assume the ride to new values- that is the most formidable assumption for a load-bearing and reverent spirit. Verily, unto such a spirit it is preying, and the work of a beast of prey.

As its holiest, it once loved "Thou-shalt": now is it forced to find illusion and arbitrariness even in the holiest things, that it may capture freedom from its love: the lion is needed for this capture.

But tell me, my brethren, what the child can do, which even the lion could not do? Why hath the preying lion still to become a child?

Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.

Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy Yea unto life: its own will, willeth now the spirit; his own world winneth the world's outcast.

Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a child.Thus spake Zarathustra. And at that time he abode in the town which is called The Pied Cow.

Continuing on a subject I am even more clueless about, the occult and mysticism as many here seem to be into. These sort of themes, like looking inward, wandering in the desert (the abyss?), and becoming who you are/a better, more authentic version etc. are aspects you lot deal with, is it not?

 

Interesting video and article for those who are curious (easy read):

https://academyofideas.com/2017/02/nietzsche-psychology-become-who-you-are/

 

Edit: would you mind educating me on anatta/non-dual? My understanding of it, after a quick google search, made it seem like it is more about the destruction of the ego, and not the self?

 

Edit 2: i really like the qoute from Jung in the first post, where he writer in-dividual. Never occured to me that the term individual meant individisble.

Edited November 15, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Cobie]

 

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… would you mind educating me on anatta/non-dual? My understanding of it, after a quick google search, made it seem like it is more about the destruction of the ego, and not the self?

 

Maybe ask  @stirling ?

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Cobie

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

Maybe ask  @stirling ?

 

The problem with the topic of "self" is the multiple sets of terminology that we encounter when discussing it. I'll contrast the idea of "self" in Buddhism vs. Self in other the Bhagavad Gita. 

 

If you can sit in meditation and become proficient enough to rest in quiet, empty, awareness (and have this verified by a teacher that can do this themselves) then you have achieved the environment where it is possible to see what "self" is for yourself. This can happen with guidance in under a month for most people with patience, diligence and 20 minutes a day to spare. 

 

What you find is that:

 

Your mind is an extremely busy place indeed. There are moments where the mind goes quiet. With some work one can rest briefly in that quiet. One can watch thoughts arise from this quiet awarness and disappear into that same quiet awareness. You are able to watch thoughts arise without "being" them, but rather from the spacious awareness that perceives them. 

 

Now you know, experientially that what you are is NOT your thought process, but the awareness. The iterative, noisy though process IS "self" in the Buddhist sense. When Upanishads speak of the "Self" it is the quiet awareness, called Rigpa, Beginner's Mind, Buddha Mind, the nature of mind, etc in Buddhism.

 

Keep in mind that recognition of mind in this sense is not INSIGHT into it. This is the introductory understanding that allows further progress by working to bring this awareness into every moment of your life. Somewhere along the line there is a moment where experience/understanding/awareness permanently shifts into a much deeper NON-CONCEPTUAL insight into this awareness - this is "Stream Entry, or "awakening".  Just as the initial experience and understanding is experiential, the insight is also. 

 

-

 

Edited to add:

 

Taking apart experience via the sense doors or aggregates can be done in countless ways. What I am offering above is a common Mahayana approach, not the only approach by any means. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by stirling
Clarity

[NaturaNaturans]

So, Jung said it was in the darkest period you discover you purpose. I feel i am in one of my Harder periods now. I feel lost. To Jung, the meaning of life was finding something youd be willing to sacrifice you life for, and becomning who you are (individuation). Like oak «seed» is supposed to evolve into a magnificent oak. 

[Daniel]

Apologies for the late reply.  I did not see your post.

 

On 11/14/2023 at 6:09 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

It is strange, dont you think, that we are not one entiry, If you know what i mean.

 

We are one entity.  We are one entity with multiple dimensions.  The others are required to define myself.  The flip-side of the coin is flipped.  It is not identical although it appears that way.  If the flip-side is purely oppositional, then purely opposing it is a defeat for me.  If I am purely opposing pure oppostion, then both sides of the coin are now identical, I am no longer distinguished from it. 

 

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As far as i understand, the two halves are who we naturally are, and the part of us we repress becaus of society.

 

Is there a side of you which would enjoy rape?  Or.  Are you defined as one who could never enjoy rape?  Does this have anything to do with society?

 

I could never enjoy rape.  If someone held a gun to my head and threatened my life if I did not rape someone, I would look them in the eye with cold resolve and say "go ahead and pull the trigger."  If they treatened to torture me, my family, my dog, I would look them in the eye and say, "go ahead and torture us."  Even if it were eternal torture.  So be it.

 

We discuss these things in Judaism.  My family knows and understands there are certain lines none of us will ever cross.  They would never want me to be a rapist.  Threats of death and torture are not and never will be currency for us.  Those sort of threats can never be used to manipulate us.  All of us are in agreement about this.  These are not repressions from society.  They are always and forever wrong.  They're not wrong because they're written in books.  The books teach how to know that it is wrong. 

 

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At the moment, i am «working» on being completly authentic. Autheniticity in words, action and honesty. I think a lot of earlier stress/struggeling was a result of believing and trying to be someone i am not. I thought i knew who i am, but seems like that was how other people thought i should be instead. The result was a constant fight against myself and a lack of purpose.

 

Exactly.  And if there was repression, then there will naturally be a strong rebound effect.  The rebound is not likely to be accurate either.

 

On 11/23/2023 at 12:01 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

So, Jung said it was in the darkest period you discover you purpose. I feel i am in one of my Harder periods now. I feel lost. To Jung, the meaning of life was finding something youd be willing to sacrifice you life for, and becomning who you are (individuation). Like oak «seed» is supposed to evolve into a magnificent oak. 

 

Most people find purpose in making a family and parenting children.  I would easily sacrifice myself for them.  Having a family brings a tremendous amount of perspective.  Even if there are barriers to having offspring that does not prohibit making a family and parenting.

 

If you are struggling and you are in contact with your parents, maybe let them know what's going on?  Connecting with one's parents is a great way to reaffirm one's true identity. 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Daniel