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The one part I don't get is how he can drop back into a prayer, whatever that is, plea? flattery? At the end. 

Simply claiming that atheism is not enough to sustain men, without the impossible goal of total freedom,, is not really a logical arrival ,but a pragmatic choice to reinstall divinity out of a preference to do so.

Which does not match the rigor applied other where.

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22 hours ago, Stosh said:

The one part I don't get is how he can drop back into a prayer, whatever that is, plea? flattery? At the end. 

Simply claiming that atheism is not enough to sustain men, without the impossible goal of total freedom,, is not really a logical arrival ,but a pragmatic choice to reinstall divinity out of a preference to do so.

Which does not match the rigor applied other where.

May be re-watch it? I didn't find anything that was discordant in the lecture :) 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dwai said:

May be re-watch it? I didn't find anything that was discordant in the lecture :) 

I expect I will see it the same, unless some new input alters the connections.  

If to you,  prayers make sense , or if that kind of thing is beneficial to your practice or attitude , then go for it.

As I see it , You would be praying to yourself , perhaps asking for things that wouldn't have come to you otherwise. It just smacks of the religion that I rejected. Special outfits , special haircut , prayers , acceptance of gods,, no its not for me. But I did find the logic refreshing , the speaker interesting and the whole thing understandable. 

I do not think one can use the term god for a universal consciousness , pray to it , and say that its not an anthropomorphic deity. The term implies a mind , with intent , or at least an independent awareness. Its used that way , and denial of this isn't enough to cover. 

However , the explanation about the multiplicity- unity issue  in the first vid I watched , explaining why the infinite is or must be experienced as 'the many' , was very good. 

There were a few other logic points I thought were , presumed to be conclusive , when they in fact are not conclusive, as described.

However,  I would have to watch it all again and take notes this time to make this point efficiently . 

Edited by Stosh

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2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I expect I will see it the same, unless some new input alters the connections.  

If to you,  prayers make sense , or if that kind of thing is beneficial to your practice or attitude , then go for it.

As I see it , You would be praying to yourself , perhaps asking for things that wouldn't have come to you otherwise. It just smacks of the religion that I rejected. Special outfits , special haircut , prayers , acceptance of gods,, no its not for me. But I did find the logic refreshing , the speaker interesting and the whole thing understandable. 

:) Can't you do it as a "note to Self" -- "please lead us from darkness to light, from ignorance to knowledge and from death to immortality"? Until the realization of one's true nature happens, prayer is one of the recourses. There is no dichotomy there. 

 

I have a hard-core scientist skeptic type friend who is an atheist. He has similar objections. I don't see any issue. Since I am the Self, I appear as  both the deity as well as the individual. So as the  individual, I appear to pray to the deity, and as the deity, I appear to bless the individual. They are just means to navigate the domains of limitations. There is room for all in non dualism. Because ultimately it is all just an appearance. 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, dwai said:

:) Can't you do it as a "note to Self" -- "please lead us from darkness to light, from ignorance to knowledge and from death to immortality"? Until the realization of one's true nature happens, prayer is one of the recourses. There is no dichotomy there. 

 

I have a hard-core scientist skeptic type friend who is an atheist. He has similar objections. I don't see any issue. Since I am the Self, I appear as  both the deity as well as the individual. So as the  individual, I appear to pray to the deity, and as the deity, I appear to bless the individual. They are just means to navigate the domains of limitations. There is room for all in non dualism. Because ultimately it is all just an appearance. 

Not for me , the note to self , which I did think of isnt enough to deny the god as a somebody.

1) Because it says lead ,and you cant lead yourself.( unless you want to parse terms -which I am refraining from) 

In Catholicism we had the phrase,,' lead us not into temptation'  and I think you could call it a dualist religion by the Swamis definitions. 

 

2 ) you don't really have an independent self nor is there anything you can be led to. Not only place to place , but spiritually speaking if you were misguided by the appearances, this is required by the situation of the view being necessarily from a member of the multiplicity. ( the idea being that the unity cannot fathom itself as a unity) 

 

Thou art doomed to see the sky as blue, and to see the world from your view,

and though you may understand the world to be otherwise , it is not a thing you can 'lead' yourself to 'see'. 

So this prayer to self will not change your destiny, concerning death. IMO

 

3) the idea that things are dualist isn't really true , that is a perspective of limited scope. It may be that this is handy to do , but its still an illusory construct. Why? 1) because There are no ,' negative ' bananas. and 2) the division of things into components is an artificial division if the universe is a unity.  

 

But please don't take my points as being an attempt to shift your own , there is something positive to be said, about the practicality of having gods , of having rituals, and of seeing the world as...  less-than- real,  and therefore of less burden and worry. I just talk too much. 

Edited by Stosh
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If you have a thorn in your arm, you pluck it out.  It doesn't matter that your body is apparent, your arm is apparent and the thorn is apparent, there is appearance in the self that happens.

 

Same with prayer, e.g. If you have apparent trouble in your apparent love life, you can pray to apparent Venus for relief. ;)

 

 

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