The Superiority of Tantra to Sutra

[asunthatneversets]

 

No, you said the majority of the key Dzogchen adepts held the Prasanga view .

 

I mentioned Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, Jamyang Khentse Wangpo, Jagmon Kongtrul etc. as a counterexample.

 

I don't care about Madhyamaka or Other Emptiness.

 

They are both equally false sutra level teachings.

 

 

The actual subject at hand was Rongzom and Madhyamaka.

If you understand what Tantra points to, or what Dzogchen is teaching, then you can see it just the same in Madhyamaka.

 

What you're objecting to is the respective paths and the means they implement.

 

The fundamental meaning does not differ.

[RongzomFan]

If you understand what Tantra points to, or what Dzogchen is teaching, then you can see it just the same in Madhyamaka.

 

I understand that you are attached to Madhyamaka.

 

I was the same way.

 

You have to get on board the Rongzom bandwagon.

[asunthatneversets]

 

I understand that you are attached to Madhyamaka.

 

I was the same way.

 

You have to get on board the Rongzom bandwagon.

Apart from comparing and contrasting for the purposes of identifying how rapid certain paths are, I see no reason to deprecate Madhyamaka.

[RongzomFan]

I see no reason to deprecate Madhyamaka.

 

If you haven't received any tantric teachings, then by all means stick with Madhyamaka.

[asunthatneversets]

 

If you haven't received any tantric teachings, then by all means stick with Madhyamaka.

My tantric teachers see no need to deprecate Madhyamaka either.

[Simple_Jack]

Here, we have these statements by Malcolm:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=15528&start=40

 

Here is the critical point that everyone over looks.

All Mahāyāna paths whether sūtra or tantra, have one thing in common: realization of the three kāyas. Each path works first at the nirmanakāya level, i.e. at first that's all you can see; then the sambhogakāya level, and finally, at the end one can see the dharmakāya personally, then one is a Buddha.

This is the same whether you are practicing the six perfections, the two stages, or trekchöd and thogal. The only difference is the amount of time it takes, and the methodology used.

Even in sūtra the obscurations are not regarded as something real which need to be abandoned. The Abhisamayālaṃkāra states:

• The wisdom of the exhaustion and non-arising
  of taints is called “the awakened state”

...

 

The state of rigpa is all three kāyas combined, but while you still have obscurations, the nirmanakāya level is all you can experience. If you can experience the sambhogakāya aspect, you are a person of high realization, meaning you are beyond the third vision.

 

I want to make it clear, I'm not in favor for nor against the rhetorical devices used to differentiate each system, but at the end of the day: the commonality of each Mahayana path, is expressed by the wish to achieve buddhahood, for the sake of all sentient beings, regardless of the means it employs to arrive at that result.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

My tantric teachers see no need to deprecate Madhyamaka either.

 

So you won't jump on the Rongzom bandwagon?

 

Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Simple_Jack]

So you won't jump on the Rongzom bandwagon?

 

 

You should use Ashley Shaeffer memes:

 

[RongzomFan]

You should use Ashley Shaeffer memes:

 

I don't know what Ashley Shaeffer is

[RongzomFan]

[Simple_Jack]

I don't know what Ashley Shaeffer is

 

Will Ferrel, "Eastbound & Down":

 

[asunthatneversets]

 

So you won't jump on the Rongzom bandwagon?

 

My teacher is Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.

[Anderson]

My teacher is Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.

 

Preciouse Vase is full of quotes from Rongzom.

[asunthatneversets]

Preciouse Vase is full of quotes from Rongzom.

True, I have nothing against Rongzompa. If it appears that I do that is only Alwayson kicking up dust and projecting.

[RongzomFan]

My teacher is Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.

So is Namdrol's among many others.

 

And he is a big Rongzom fan.

Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan

[asunthatneversets]

So is Namdrol's among many others.

 

And he is a big Rongzom fan.

 

I'm a big Rongzom fan as well. Not sure why you think otherwise.

[RongzomFan]

You cant be a Rongzom fan and stick to Madhyamaka

[RongzomFan]

No you are a longchenpa and jigme lingpa fan, as you said

[asunthatneversets]

You cant be a Rongzom fan and stick to Madhyamaka

 

Why do you think I stick to Madhyamaka? All I said is that I see no reason to deprecate it.

 

Neither does my teacher:

 

"...Madhyamaka explains with the four 'beyond concepts,' which are that something neither exists, nor does not exist, nor both exists and does not exist, nor is beyond both existing and not existing together. These are the four possibilities. What remains? Nothing. Although we are working only in an intellectual way, this can be considered the ultimate conclusion in Madhyamaka. As an analytical method, this is also correct for Dzogchen. Nagarjuna's reasoning is supreme."

- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

 

"That view established intellectually we need to establish consciously in dependence upon one’s capacity of knowledge and on convention. The way of establishing that is the system of Prasanga Madhyamaka commented upon by the great being Nāgārjuna and his followers. There is no system of view better than that."

- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

Edited February 12, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[asunthatneversets]

No you are a longchenpa and jigme lingpa fan, as you said

 

This is another straw man. I never proclaimed strict allegiance to anyone.

 

Again, you're taking this Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa statement out of context, which was only issued in response to your reference to Dudjom Rinpoche and Dilgo Khyentse, both of whom I am fond of as well.

[RongzomFan]

Yes ChNN follows jigme lingpa whom you also like

 

You have to also understand that prasanga madhyamaka doesnt exist

 

If it did exist, I would be following Mipham

Edited February 12, 2014 by RongzomFan

[asunthatneversets]

Yes ChNN follows jigme lingpa whom you also like

 

You have to also understand that prasanga madhyamaka doesnt exist

 

If it did exist, I would be following Mipham

 

Well, it is a conventional designation just like anything else, and it is a title which is clearly used by many, so in that respect it does indeed exist.

[RongzomFan]

prasanga madhyamaka is a Tibetan fabrication with different contradictory meanings.

 

Gorampa

Tsongkhapa

Mipham

Jigme Lingpa

[asunthatneversets]

prasanga madhyamaka is a Tibetan fabrication with different contradictory meanings.

 

Gorampa

Tsongkhapa

Mipham

Jigme Lingpa

Fixating on Prasangika itself is surely counterproductive. The reason why Prasanga is championed is because it upholds a freedom from extremes as its fundamental view.

[RongzomFan]

Fixating on Prasangika itself is surely counterproductive. The reason why Prasanga is championed is because it upholds a freedom from extremes as its fundamental view.

Which Prasangika?

 

And who is championing it?

 

Gorampa certainly did not champion Tsongkhapa's Prasangika...