...

[Marblehead]

Marblehead- Ahh, now I see what you mean about the question/ statement...It does seem to make far more sense as a statement. Thank you for clarifying.

Hey. I enjoy talking about this stuff.

 

On the topic of illusions, it could be said that most things are some form of illusion. Which is why I say, appears to exist. Since I have little knowledge of things existing outside of my own self, which I know little about, most things appear to be what they are.

Yeah, although Science can tell us all about what things are made up of we humans see the universe and all things within the way our brain interprets what we see. There are logical reasons for this. Nature did a really good job of affording us the ability to use our senses and make appro[riate responses.

 

If we accept reality as we perceive it without adding or subtracting anything we will do pretty good in life. Problems start when we start intrepretting what we become aware of or if we add illusion and delusions to what we experience.

 

Hmm...If you could be totally immersed in the Wu yet aware of the Yu...that does sound incredible. It could also be horrible! haha. We may become so detached from the Yu, that we are unable to do more then sit and be. We may be unable to participate because we already are so deeply connected. Time may blur, experiences might blend and merge, people could as well....I wonder if thats similar to how a schizophrenic experiences life at times. Ever changing, constantly flipping channels, experiencing things that exist to them, not to others. It would be interesting find out if they were more in a different "state" or "plane" and less wherever their body currently was. Like a shaman, just far more unstable.

Yes, I think it would be wise to not go to either side too far. We might lose our connections. Illusions and delusions are somewhat like schizophrenia except that the schizo brain is caused by chemical imbalances whereas illusions and delusions are self-induced.

 

Hmm...Very interesting...So the essence is probably in the Mystery (wu), which is why it appears to exist yet slips from your grasp when you try to grab it. This is very fun and interesting brain/mind stuff. You have given me much to ponder.

Based on scientific knowledge that I am aware of I would say "yes". There has been recent discussions regarding simultaneous arising of "wu" and "you" but I'm not ready to buy that. I am still with "you" is born out of "wu".

 

Hhehe, a good action/ adventure movie...those can be very enjoyable. Do you prefer more modern timed movies, say the last 100 years, or any good action/adventure movie?

I prefer the more modern except for the Chinese martial arts movies. I still prefer the older ones.

 

Im curious, Marblehead. Do you feel that your time in the Army helped you uncover some insight into the nature of creation/destruction?

 

Peace.

Absolutely. Whenever I was overseas I would go out amongst the locals whenever I had the time. I became fairly aware of how people of other cultures lived. My first "oneness" experience was when I was stationed in Vietnam. And I learned so well to appreciate what I had and still have. There are many who have far less than I.

[Uroboros]

Marblehead- I enjoy talking about it, too! Its allot of fun..helps ya grow/ develop, I feel.

 

The thing I am pondering is this- can anything truly be an illusion/ delusion? Even if another person does not experience it as you do, does that mean it does not exist at all? So far, I feel that to say that it does not exist at all because it is outside of the experience of some is...a judgement based on limited knowledge....My saying that is a judgement, too! haha.

 

Hmm...on the chemical imbalance creating the experience...I feel that it could also be the other way round. The subtle is creating the more physical manifestation. It could be both..a mutual creation/ existence.

A self induced illusion/delusion can then create physical/ chemical imbalances...So is there any real difference?

 

Have you seen the movie Red Cliff, the full version? It was excellent. You have to watch the full version, though. the short version cuts out most of the story, character building and such.

 

Thats wonderful! Im glad you benefited from experiencing other cultures. So much can be learned. Did your first 'oneness" experience change how you made choices afterwards?

Contentment...feeling happy with what we have...I feel it helps curb greed/ excess. I feel your sentiments. There are many who have less then I do and are in far worse condition....When I was younger, I did not like people saying that. I felt it was a denial of whatever problems I had. Saying I did not matter. Now I realize that its a change in perspective to open space for gratitude and change...I appreciate such things far more now!

 

Peace.

[Uroboros]

Oh, thank you! How very kind of you, Cat.

 

I guess we should try and stay more on topic, then. haha.

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

The thing I am pondering is this- can anything truly be an illusion/ delusion? Even if another person does not experience it as you do, does that mean it does not exist at all? So far, I feel that to say that it does not exist at all because it is outside of the experience of some is...a judgement based on limited knowledge....My saying that is a judgement, too! haha.

Well, the illusion/delusion is real for the person experiencing it, isn't it? So we can't say, absolute, that it doesn't exist. But where does it exist? In the brain of the experiencer only. Can't reach out and touch it.

 

Yeah, we make judgement calls all the time. We need to, really.

 

Hmm...on the chemical imbalance creating the experience...I feel that it could also be the other way round. The subtle is creating the more physical manifestation. It could be both..a mutual creation/ existence.

A self induced illusion/delusion can then create physical/ chemical imbalances...So is there any real difference?

I can't speak any more to this as I do not have the knowledge base.

 

Have you seen the movie Red Cliff, the full version? It was excellent. You have to watch the full version, though. the short version cuts out most of the story, character building and such.

Yes, I have seen that and I'm pretty sure it was the full version. Yes, so much of the movie was about character building.

 

Did your first 'oneness" experience change how you made choices afterwards?

Not right away. At the time my life was too complicated to appreciate it. But years later, reflecting back on it, it did effect many of my choices.

 

Contentment...feeling happy with what we have...I feel it helps curb greed/ excess. I feel your sentiments. There are many who have less then I do and are in far worse condition....When I was younger, I did not like people saying that. I felt it was a denial of whatever problems I had. Saying I did not matter. Now I realize that its a change in perspective to open space for gratitude and change...I appreciate such things far more now!

 

Peace.

Yes, gratitude is a powerful character trait. If I weren't an Ateist I would be thanking some deity right now. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

*makes tea for marblehead and uroboros*

Thanks Cat. My mouth was getting a little dry from talking so much.

 

You are welcome to come in and get us back on topic, you know.

[Songtsan]

I am definitely one who thinks that there is a place for repudiation. If I had had a strong role model in my life - someone to actually discipline me when I was young, I would have turned out differently. It has taken me many years extra to learn things that most parents teach their children. I am still suffering from this lack of building a strong moral character, with a sense of honor and duty. I have often wished that I had had Japanese parents (to a degree). I basically grew up as white trash, barely parented at all. I think it is good when people in a community hold others to task. That is half the reason I do/say the things I do when confronted with 'unacceptable behaviors' in others, although I may not be the most gentle of beings when I do this.

[Marblehead]

WoW! Talk about going off topic! You did great!!!

[Songtsan]

WoW! Talk about going off topic! You did great!!!

 

I thought the topic was repudiation and tearing down/building up? That's what I was talking 'bout....

[Marblehead]

I thought the topic was repudiation and tearing down/building up? That's what I was talking 'bout....

I guess I missed the message. I'll go back and read it again. Hehehe.

[Songtsan]

It's not so much about destruction/creation, as energy cannot be destroyed or created...it merely changes form. So what it is really about is shaping. Or perhaps transforming. As society evolves, we all shape each other. That is why Buddhists say that we all co-create each other. No one creates themselves 100%, no matter how much we all would like to be able to do so. We each have a hand in each others destiny, to some degree or other. Every word I say on this site, will shape those who read it, and even effect future shapings. I am sure that I have made whole threads in response to single posts that I have read others make in other threads, and my threads created posts which influenced other people's threads and the same for everyone else. These words we speak here echo in our heads as we go about our business during the day, and likely influence our actions in myriad of ways. When you think of the complexities of interdependent co-origination, you begin to understand that the shaper, the act of shaping, and that which is shaped are all one being. We truly are each other in a grand scheme of things. So when I make efforts to shape someone else, or they me, we are actually shaping ourselves. No single persons ideal shall be the top dog, we co-aim towards shared ideals in fact.

[Marblehead]

Okay. You win. Hehehe.

 

But you really are right in what you just said. When we make changes in our life, in our character, something has been destroyed so that something new could be created.

 

So you go ahead on and continue reshaping your life until you have the life that you can naturally live, without any fear or seeking any praise.

[Songtsan]

Okay. You win. Hehehe.

 

But you really are right in what you just said. When we make changes in our life, in our character, something has been destroyed so that something new could be created.

 

So you go ahead on and continue reshaping your life until you have the life that you can naturally live, without any fear or seeking any praise.

 

...and the re-shaping never ends...Snake keeps on eating its own tail forever and ever. When we stop seeking to reshape is probably when we attain wu wei, actionless action, directionless direction, becomingless becoming. When the mind fabrications end, we stop trying to shape reality according to our mind map, and instead let reality shape our mind - to best fit reality moment by moment. All willful attempts to shape reality are ultimately delusional. None of us should even be here on this site I think to myself half the time. When we exchange our ego mind for Taomind, we are in league with the Tao instead of fighting the current, and all changes that should occur will occur at the exact right moment, with no prior planning. This is my goal. They do say that we should attain this state of nondoing through doing, that when we have lost the primordial energy through gathering contrived energy, we must walk the path of doing to attain nondoing - to return to our source progenitor. The loss of innocence. Sometimes I feel so ashamed of my ego mind and its vanities. This is what I would like to destroy - yet in seeking to destroy it, I must first use it itself to destroy itself. So confounding! Destroy the destroyer! Destruction, the act of destruction, and that which is destroyed become one....lol I can see it all in theory, but it is all meaningless in reality because the map is not the territory - I am starting to bore myself with all this talk...when philosophy becomes redundant, you are simply working for the Department of Redundancy Department. Someone please destroy me! Who ever knew that destruction could be so difficult? I always thought it was easy....it is (in the material world), but to destroy ones own mind is the most difficult thing....

[Marblehead]

But then we really don't need to destroy the ego mind. We just need to allow it to reflect reality. It is when we have too great an ego or too small an ego that we are not at one with our inner self.

 

Again, wu wei is just doing what need be done. Chop wood, carry water. When the work is done sit at the computer and go to the TaoBums forum.

 

And yes, it is sometimes near impossible to destroy those aspects of our self in order to allow for new creation. The fear: what if I destroy my excessive ego and I don't find inner peace?

[Stosh]

Well , halfway between creation of an attatchment and destruction of an attatchment, there is judicious handling of that attatchment so its not really an attatchment .

So If we spend too much time posting on too many topics for too much of the day,,

perhaps we all would all agree to pare down some of it so as to have cake for later.

How many of us think thats going to happen? raise your hands.

[Marblehead]

I see no hands.

[Songtsan]

I see no hands.

 

what happens to the hand that is raised that no one sees? Is it still a hand? What happens to your fist when you open your hand?

[Stosh]

what happens to the hand that is raised that no one sees? Is it still a hand? What happens to your fist when you open your hand?

Nothing happens to it.

It is what it ever has been , and if it was a hand then it still would be.

It is repurposed to grab.

[Stosh]

I see no hands.

Me neither.

[Songtsan]

Nothing happens to it.

It is what it ever has been , and if it was a hand then it still would be.

It is repurposed to grab.

 

true that...the 'what happens to your fist when you open your hand' is actually a Zen koan...it basically indicates that a 'fist' is actually a relationship, more than a separate thing.

[Marblehead]

true that...the 'what happens to your fist when you open your hand' is actually a Zen koan...it basically indicates that a 'fist' is actually a relationship, more than a separate thing.

And besides, a fist is a sign of aggression wheras an open hand is a sign of peace.

[Uroboros]

Is an open hand truly an open hand if you cannot make a fist?

 

A cats paw is open, it does not make a fist..Does it have the same meaning?

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

Is an open hand truly an open hand if you cannot make a fist?

 

A cats paw is open, it does not make a fist..Does it have the same meaning?

 

Peace.

Oops. I got caught in a dilemma. No, I wouldn't trust a cat's paw swiping at me. And then there is that open-handed slap (sometimes called a bitch-slap) that is used to get one's attention.

[Uroboros]

Hhaha, a cats paw swiping does usually involve claws...ouch. True, the open hand/ palm is quite deadly... Far more flexibility in methods.

 

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound? what is the sound of one hand clapping?

 

I feel that these are using duality to point towards something that is not quite dual...Still have little experiential knowledge of what that is! hehe.

 

On the topic of destruction/ creation. Songtsan made a good point, I feel. That we are constantly making and un-making our ego/ individual consciousness. Or our perception of our self. Every time we choose, we in effect, destroy one possibility and version of ourselves in favor of another.

 

We can un-make/ destroy our previous model/ belief/ paradigm and create/ make a new one. It could be considered a small death. We die and die and are born a new person.

 

memories are similar, as well. We rely on our ability to recall them. They are forgotten, let go and they dont exist anymore. To us, atleast. Then we remember, we pull them back, we re-create them, in way.

If we cant recall them...it strikes a shattering blow to the ego..to our self. Either we let go of all but now and ride the waves or we try and hold on. To gain a place of stability based in linearity. Its not a true, true stabilty, me thinks.

 

What happens to your open palm when you make a fist? It is gone. It exists and does not exist. The potential for it to exist in that form is there, though.

 

Maybe it could help if we allow ourselves to destroy that which no longer serves us, in a fluid way. To create that which does serve us, in the moment.

 

Some thoughts. Peace.

[Songtsan]

memories are similar, as well. We rely on our ability to recall them. They are forgotten, let go and they dont exist anymore. To us, atleast. Then we remember, we pull them back, we re-create them, in way.

If we cant recall them...it strikes a shattering blow to the ego..to our self. Either we let go of all but now and ride the waves or we try and hold on. To gain a place of stability based in linearity. Its not a true, true stabilty, me thinks.

 

Actually I was reading a study in Psychology Today a while back, and they say that actually yes, memories are recreated every time they are recalled, on a physical level - the neurons becomes slightly restructured every time the memory matrix is accessed. So our memories actually change and evolve over time - becoming different than the real event. Fascinating!

[Uroboros]

I wonder if the degree of fluidity and instability in your mind, affects how much the memories are changed....Something to ponder.

 

Peace.