Interviews with a Tantric Kali Priest: Feeding Skulls in the Town of Sacrifice

[RongzomFan]

Interviews with a Tantric Kali Priest: Feeding Skulls in the Town of Sacrifice

 

by June McDaniel

 

 

 

Skulls are widely used in Bengali folk Tantra. They empower buildings and

grounds, like the relics in early and medieval churches. They are buried in tem-

ples, under the altar or in a corner, and they turn the building into sacred ground.

They are also buried at the foot of sacred trees, and they make ordinary ground

into an empowered meditation seat.

Although skulls and images of death are normally inauspicious in Hinduism,

certain skulls bring luck and fortune in meditation. Skulls give protective energy

(sakri) and support the sadhu in his efforts. They are often painted red, to show

that they are alive and auspicious, and to protect them from mold and the Bengali

weather. They are ironic images, which represent death yet encourage the spiritual

rebirth of the holy man or sadhu. Skulls are not old bones, but relics that mediate

the supernatural (alaukika) world, calling down the goddess Kali to help the

practitioner. Skulls are really not dead but alive, companions and friends of the

sadhus. They are inhabited by earth-bound entities who seek spiritual knowledge

rather than pleasure, but were never educated in this field during their lives.

Skulls give their power, and this is the sadhu's offering: he may become guru

to the dead. He can teach them the way to the heavens, and initiate them with

empowered mantras, the keys to the kingdom. Spirits are said to cluster around

meditating sadhus, but the sadhu will only give mantras to those spirits who bring

their skulls to him. They travel through the midnight air, carrying their skulls to

offer, and the ones he accepts belong to the spirits who will be initiated. The

sadhu takes the power from the skulls. This strengthens him in his own quest for

infinite wisdom (brahmajnana), for one needs power (sakti) to hold brahmajnana.

Without enough power, the Tantric sadhu could go insane, or he may have only

glimpses of his goal but be unable to maintain the state.

Sadhana (spiritual practice) with skulls is rarely seen today, but it is associated with certain locales, especially those with a background of death and sacrifice.

The town of Bolpur in Birbhum (West Bengal) was named for the large number

of sacrifices performed by one of its kings. According to the legend, centuries ago

the great king Raja Surat had a vision of the goddess Kali. She asked him to

sacrifice one hundred thousand goats to her (some versions say it was buffaloes),

and if he did this, his dreams would be fulfilled. He did indeed sacrifice these

goats, and gave the town its name (bali-pur, "town of sacrifice"). Since that time,

there has been temple worship of Kali in the town.

There are several Kali temples in Bolpur, and one of them is on the edge of

town, near the woods, with a large cremation ground nearby. This is the Kali

Temple of the Dry Lake, a temple is dedicated to Daksina Kali, who is a benevolent

form of the goddess worshiped by householders. She is also called Bhairavi Vais-

navi, showing that she is a Tantric goddess with such Vaisnava qualities as com-

passion and the ability to bestow happiness. Within the temple, there is a large

statue of Daksina Kali, with black skin and a smiling face, with her two assistants,

Dakini and Yogini, flanking her. There are also statues of the Sakta Siddhas (per-

fected beings) Vamaksepa, Ramakrsna Paramahamsa, and his wife Sarada Ma.

Behind the statues on the altar is a row of human skulls, painted red.

Daksina Kali is merciful to her devotees. Renouncers and sadhus worship more

powerful forms of Kali, called Smasana Kali (Goddess of the Burning Ground)

and Varna Kali (Kali of the Left Side, or Kali of the Forbidden). They offer her

meat and wine, flesh and blood, placed in a skull. At this temple, offerings of

meat and wine are made to Kali's assistants, Dakini and Yogini, but these are only

offered outside the temple.

The priest or purohit of this temple is Tapan Goswami, whose Vaisnava name

reflects honors shown to his ancestors. He is a practicing Sakta, who worships

Kali and meditates upon her. His practice, however, includes many older ele-

ments.

Tapan was born in small village about twenty kilometers from Bolpur, where

his grandfather was a respected temple priest and Tantric sadhu. He came from

a Sakta family.

My family's goddess in the village was Uluicandi. She came from the earth, in the

form of a stone. She was found a thousand years ago. When there was no rain in the

village, my ancestors would bathe the stone in the pond, and rain would come. They

worshiped her under a neem tree, and she had a small shrine there. She was originally

a house goddess, but then her worship was opened to the village. Later my ancestors

had a statue (murti) made, and it was immersed each year, and a new statue made.

They worshiped her every day except for the [festival] time of Kali Puja, when a

pitcher (ghat) was worshiped instead.

However, village life is primarily agricultural, and during his childhood a

drought came and brought famine. All of the crops failed. The family then moved to Bolpur, which at that time was surrounded by forests. In those days, the temple

was not easily accessible to visitors. As Tapan states:

I came to Bolpur when I was six years old, and my father began to work as the priest

of this temple. At the age of about ten or eleven years, I began to visit the temple at

night, secretly. I was kept from going there in the daytime. But I could get the keys

to the temple, and I went there at night, even though often I was afraid. 1 felt that

the Goddess looked with favor upon me.

Here, we believe that on the new-moon night, people should offer incense and

candles to the Goddess. When I opened the temple door one new moon night, I

found that many types of offerings (prasad) were there. I ate them, because I was

hungry, but then I was afraid that people would be angry at me, and I thought of

not returning. But I had such a great longing to return, that I could not stay away,

and after a few days I came back again.

He spent his childhood attracted to the Goddess but fearful of her power. One

night, when there were visitors to the temple, he saw a cake suddenly materialize,

rise in the air, and fly toward him. He took this as a sign of the Goddess's power

and her gift to him, and he became more and more curious about her.

As he grew older, he began to visit many renunciant sadhus and sannyasis,

especially those performing Tantra sadhana. He asked them many questions about

ritual practice, and about the nature of Kali. When he was twenty-one years old,

he met a sadhu who taught him about Tantra sadhana; however, he was not

initiated. He wandered to different places in West Bengal; he studied for a while

at the Ramakrishna Ashram in Suri, then spent time in a village, then attended

Vishvabharati University in Shantiniketan. During his years at Vishvabharati, he

spent his spare time doing ritual practices to the Goddess. After he graduated, he

worked in Dubrajpur, but the job did not interest him, and he spent his spare

time with the sadhus meditating on a sacred hill nearby. He left and returned to

his own village; his father taught him techniques of ritual temple worship, and

he learned to awaken the Goddess in the statue with rice and durva grass, and to

line her eyes with black eyeliner (kajal). His father told him to work at the Kali

temple in Bolpur.

His relationship with the Goddess was not an easy one. He was angry at Kali

because she allowed many difficulties and uncertainties in his life, and would not

solve his financial and family problems. However, in the end they made peace,

and the Goddess was willing to help him. He said: "When I used to do the evening

ritual, I would feel a cold wind blowing behind me, and it would extinguish the

candles. I would shiver and my hair would stand on end. I would hear the wind,

and know that there was power (sakti) in it. I felt it was the Goddess's presence."

She would visit him many times, even though he argued with her. When he

came into the temple one night with his left arm broken (due to family fighting),

the Goddess was there. Though they disagreed, his arm was miraculously healed,

and it no longer looked twisted.

His major religious teacher was his grandfather, Ratneshvara Goswami, who helped him during his childhood. He is still in awe of his grandfather's power,

and told a story about him:

An interesting incident happened many years ago. When my father was just a child,

he was very ill, and he was finally declared dead by the doctor. My grandfather took

him into the forest. There were hundreds of jackals and vultures surrounding him,

but no animal came near or tried to attack him. My grandfather went into a meditative

trance, and was full of devotion for the Goddess. After three or four days, my father

began to move, and he regained his life and his strength. The Goddess saves people

in her many forms - Durga, Kali, Tara - but it is my belief that my father was saved

by the intervention of Kali.

Tapan said that his grandfather was a powerful tantrika, who could cure people

from deadly diseases and snakebite. The grandfather had practiced Tantric rituals

alone in the mountains, and had practiced the pancamakara rituals (the five Tan-

tric "sacraments," all of which are words beginning with the letter M) with a

temporary wife. He had a guru who guided him, and he had great devotion to

the Goddess, which has continued in the family.

After his grandfather's death, Tapan continued to communicate with him. The

spirit of his grandfather would come to visit Tapan in his dreams and visions,

instructing him in ritual and relationships with the spirits. He says that his grand-

father's spirit has chosen to dwell in his favorite meditation place, his ritual seat,

which is placed over five buried skulls at the foot of a large tree in the woods

near the temple. His grandfather created this "five-skull seat" (pancamundi asana)

and spent much time there during his life. When Tapan wishes to communicate

with his grandfather's spirit, he sits on this ritual seat and meditates there.

Tapan has been possessed by his grandfather. In Indian tradition, the guru is

like a god, and being possessed by a god is a desirable situation. Tapan knows

when he is coming:

He comes to me like the wind, and I can hear the sound of his wooden shoes. Once,

I was sitting here before the Goddess, and I heard the shoes and felt the wind at my

back. It put out the candle. It was my grandfather's spirit, and he entered my body

and I felt great joy (ananda). I found myself chanting many mantras. I stayed con-

scious, and could see everything, but he was there too. He had told me that he would

come that evening. The mantras made me feel full of power, and his presence was a

powerful thing entering me. Once some people came and had cigarettes with some

drug in them, and I felt myself becoming unconscious. I called on my grandfather

for help, and he came to me and possessed me.

Visitors have been a problem: "Many people have come here and tried to meet

my grandfather in his subtle body. He was annoyed when some tantrikas wanted

spiritual powers (siddhis), and built their own pancamundi asana. There should

never be more than one at a sacred site (pitha) at a time. I speak with him often,

but he would not speak with those people."

Although Tapan was close to his grandfather, he was not as close to his own father, who only taught him formal ritual worship (puja). He had to learn spiritual

practice on his own, by studying with the various sadhus he could find, and was

never officially initiated. He learned on the road, and in his travels. He performed

Tantra sadhana in the mountains, as his grandfather had done, but after he mar-

ried and became a temple priest he limited his practice to more traditional wor-

ship, which he called Vedic sadhana. He felt that safeguarding his grandfather's

property allowed him to fulfill his grandfather's "unspoken dreams," so he left

his Tantric practices in the mountains.

I began to meditate seriously, perfecting my knowledge and ritual practice. As I did

this, I saw that I began to gain new power (sakti). I realized the power of sadhana,

and that if any person could do it properly, he could gain perfection (siddhi). But it

is difficult in daily life to balance family and spiritual practice. Families do not tend

to encourage and inspire sadhana, and neighbors don't understand it; they look down

on people who perform puja. This discourages practice. They are only interested in

the Goddess when they are sick or in need: then they will worship. Otherwise, they

stay aloof. They only want immediate gains and blessings. I think that true sadhana

can only be done in isolation, away in the mountains.

However, he did retain one one Tantric-style ritual, the feeding of skulls, as

taught to him by his grandfather. Behind the Kali statue in his temple is a long

line of bright red skulls, who are given offerings. He describes the ritual as follows:

The Goddess is normally invisible before us, but through sadhana, we can see her.

One ritual that I perform here is the feeding of skulls (mundake khdoya nao). Generally,

skulls like puffed rice, though some like fried lentils, curries, or wine. After perform-

ing a sacrifice (bali), I feed them with raw meat [in this case, "feeding" means offering

a plate of food before each skull]. The feeding is accompanied by a ritual fire (homa)

and sacrifice (yajna). After the feeding, I bathe them in ghee, yogurt, milk, and honey,

and then I arrange them for worship. Sometimes I do this when I need more mental

balance or physical strength.

Skulls are useful, because the person's soul often stays with the skull. The soul

can predict the future, and help the sadhu. People used to do the corpse ritual (sava-

sadhana) and sit on the dead body of a virgin girl. She would then become Kali, and

the body would come back to life and talk. My grandfather did sava-sadhana, but

people today are afraid of it - if you make one mistake, you die or go insane. This

sadhu in orange that you see roaming around here in the burning ground did sava-

sadhana wrongly, and he was made insane by it. But he will return to sanity one of

these days.

I feed the skulls on the altar, and they help me. I learned the skull-feeding ritual

from my grandfather. When the skulls are fed, they are pacified and they become

protectors. Then they are strong enough to fight of f the evil souls (atmas) who wish

to distract or harm the sadhu. When negative spirits (bhutas and pretas) try to disturb

the sadhu's meditation, then the good souls fight the bad souls and keep the sadhu on the right path. Sadhus often have helpers. Sometimes sava-sadhana is performed

with a woman, who is called the uttara sadhika. She has great skill (adhikari) and

helps the male through meditation if he is distracted by evil spirits. When the sadhu

draws a circle around himself to protect him from these spirits, she is within the

circle. Sometimes the sadhu may invite his guru in subtle form to watch over him

and help him.

Today, it is widely believed that there are no ghosts, but really there are souls who

do not die. They are always around us. Sometimes they may enter into our physical

bodies, and cause problems or even tragedies. It is only by sadhana, by dedication

to the Goddess, that we gain control over them. Then they can work for our benefit.

We become immune to fear, hate, and intense desire with their help. I show them

loyalty, and they guard me.

The skulls in this temple mostly come from people who died in epidemics, es-

pecially cholera epidemics. Large numbers of people used to die, and there was no

effective system of cremation at that time. Corpses would lie on the roadside or in

the forests.

Under the altar (vedi) of this temple there are 108 skulls buried. Some altars have

1,008 skulls. Skulls awaken the Goddess, and make her present here. Male gods have

stones (Silas) or lihgas [of Siva], but goddesses have skulls. Some skulls are used for

pancamundi asana [a ritual in which the practitioner sits on a seat in the midst of

five skulls, generally of different types of animals and persons]. People use the skulls

of a low-caste man, a jackal, a tiger, a snake, and a virgin girl (kumdri). They must

be young, and die suddenly by violence. Nobody wants the skulls of people who

died of disease or old age. Some tantrikas have a special relationship with the Doms

[low-caste people who traditionally burn the dead and deal with corpses] who work

in hospitals. These Doms notify them of appropriate deaths.

Tapan compares the skull-feeding ritual with the corpse ritual (sava-sadhana)

because in both cases a dead object becomes a vessel for a living presence through

ritual. The souls from the skulls are also like the Tantric consort or uttara sadhika

in that they assist in ritual practice. Although the female consort can help the

Tantric practitioner overcome the power of instinct by the use of mantra and

mudra at the correct times, the souls can help the practitioner battle evil spirits

and temptations in his meditative visions.

The Goddess is more powerful than the souls, and comes to visit and help

more rarely. Tapan calls the Goddess "Ma" (Mother).

Ma has given me many favors. I remember once at night, I dreamt of a little girl

(whom I believe was Ma) who came to help me. At that time I had little money and

was renting a very small room. The girl came to me and took me to a new house for

rent in my neighborhood. 1 awoke the next morning, and followed the path that we

had taken in the dream-vision. I saw a house that looked exactly like the one I had

seen. There did turn out to be a room for rent there, a spacious room that I could

afford. So I believe she really did help me. Once she appeared as an old woman, perhaps eighty years old, and she patted my head, which was on her lap. At that time

I was under much stress - my sadhana was not smooth, and 1 was disturbed by many

bad events, which frightened me. But Ma saved me, and she gave me her blessings.

She can also help at death, as can the guru.

The Goddess gives blessings during life, and after death she can also help. She does

not help directly, for such things are determined by karma. Those who did evil on

earth are kept in hell (patala) in the forms of jackals or snakes, and they cannot leave

immediately. If they didn't do much evil, they may move about their past family and

friends in nonphysical (aprakrta) form.

But if the person dying had a true guru, then he could act as a mediator for the

person to reach heaven (svarga) or Kailasa [the mountain abode of Siva], and Kali

can help to show the way. If one wishes to reach the kingdom of the gods and

goddesses, it is necessary to worship them.

It is difficult to describe. You see, in this world everything is both difficult and

easy. It depends upon how you approach it. If a person has a proper guide, if he is

given much instruction and experience, if his guru watches him closely, then nothing

is difficult to attain. But the qualities (gunas) inherited from previous lives are also

important. Without the proper qualities, one cannot perform sadhana. If a person

was educated in this area in his previous life, then he could guide himself automat-

ically, and would not need anybody else.

Tapan has worshiped Kali in a variety of ways.

There are many forms of Tantric sadhana. There are three major styles (bhavas): the

sattvika, rajasika and tamasika bhavas. The sattvika bhava is devotion (bhakti), and

that is the best path to follow. The tamasika bhava can give one the presence of the

Goddess, but it does not last long. It stays for a little while, and then it ceases. It is

very brief, and very fickle. Devotion lasts longer. One cannot get really close to the

Goddess without devotional love. Only bhakti justifies Tantra.

I have practiced both Vedic and Tantric sadhana. But I do not call myself a tan-

trika - I don't take liquor, bhang, ganjika [hashish] and that sort of thing. Tantra is

a dangerous path - there is much possiblity of insanity and brain damage. The Tantric

path to liberation is fast and easy (sahaja), but it always has risks. The Vedic path is

longer, but the risks are fewer. I think that the feeding of skulls is the first stage of

practice, where one learns to control ghosts and ghouls (bhutas and pretas), and one

gains immunity to snakebites, and dedication to the Goddess. Then the Goddess

comes to protect her devotee, and vision comes, as well as telepathy and the ability

to know the future.

He does not call himself a tantrika because tantrikas have a bad reputation in

West Bengal. They are popularly portrayed as madmen, perverts, cannibals, drug

addicts, and alcoholics. However, his practice does have a heavy Tantric flavor,

which he renames as Vedic and devotional. He justifies this by saying that his ultimate goal is devotional, so his practice can be called devotional. Tantra is only

a stage of worship.

Tapan has dedicated himself to his life as a priest and Sakta devotee:

I inherited this temple and burning ground, and now they are my property. I have

given my village land and shares in the lakes to my brothers. I want to fulfill the

wishes of both my father and grandfather. I have been here since 1979, for fifteen

years. Ma developed the temple, and I have been her mediator. I have also been

inspired by a woman renouncer, a sannyasini named Sangadevi, a distant relative of

Rabindranath Tagore. I will be forever obliged to her. She was a great help to me. I

hope that the temple will grow, and that more people will come to worship the

Goddess.

However, he finds it a hard life, and does not want his son to follow in his

footsteps. He wants him to work in an office in the city.

Really, sakti sadhana is becoming obsolete today because nobody teaches it. I do not

want my own son to be a Sakta sadhu. I will teach others, but I will not teach him.

I want him to work in an office. I had to go through much suffering in this practice,

and I want to spare my son. Learning about sakti sadhana is predetermined; if it is

his karma, he will learn it somehow. If it is in his blood he will do it, and find a guru

of his own. I want him to do worship, but not sadhana. It is a difficult life, and much

suffering is involved. I had only my grandfather to help me.

His comments about Tantric goddess worship (sakti sadhana) becoming obso-

lete are quite accurate, according to my observations. Very few people are willing

to admit that they even practice, let alone teach it. As families are becoming more

nuclear, the importance of the ancestors and grandparents decreases; as com-

munism and Westernization spread through the villages, traditional religious be-

liefs die away. What remains are Vedanta, traditionally the province of the higher

and more educated castes, and devotional bhakti, which is understandable to the

Christians who possess money and can provide jobs. These approaches have not

yet been subject to attack. Tapan states, "Now the atmosphere here is against

tantra sadhana, and people are afraid, because sometimes people who do ritual

practice are beaten by goondas [bullies or criminals, often hired by political

groups]. Maybe tantrikas can manage in a deserted forests or cremation grounds,

but if anybody knows about the practice, there is trouble."

It seems that these attackers harass the sadhus as part of an organized attempt

to rid West Bengal of people viewed as social parasites and troublemakers. Prac-

titioners from several areas of West Bengal have described the harassment that

they have suffered from the Communist "Anti-Superstition Clubs" in the elemen-

tary and high schools, and from other groups whose affiliations are not advertised.

However, the worship of the Goddess in Tantric style continues sub rosa: "But

people believe in Sakti, even with communism. Many Communist leaders go to

tantrikas and astrologers to find out what the results of an election will be. I have had Communists come here to this cremation ground, though they tell their

followers not to come here, that it is superstition. They tell them this because

they are afraid that the illiterate people will get power from the Goddess, and

take it away from them. They want to keep the power for themselves." Such a

situation makes him wonder about the future of Tantric practice. Tapan states: "I

think that worship of Kali will survive, but there will be fewer members. I think

that in fifty years there will be no gurus left, and the practices will all turn shal-

lower and more superficial." Tapan's own long-term goal is universal and devo-

tional: "What I want to do is stay at the beck and call of Ma, lay down before her

feet, give her offerings and serve her, and also run my family and know about

the outside world. Then my vision of her will be clear instead of fuzzy, and I can

perform service to the world."

Maintaining the older Tantric traditions in the face of hostility from the forces

of communism and Westernization is difficult for tantrikas, and many have gone

into hiding. Others have claimed to be devotees, bhaktas, or Vedic scholars, as a

way of protecting themselves from attack. Few tantrikas are wandering sadhus

today; most have some job and status and perform Tantric sadhana privately. The

Nababharata Press has published a number of Tantras in Sanskrit with Bengali

translation, so that non-Sanskritists (usually meaning non-brahmans) can practice

the rituals. There are also small Tantric circles, in which people study texts, and

other small underground groups that practice rituals.

For virtually all the tantrikas I interviewed, however, the dimension of Tantra

that focuses on the conquest of death and transcendence of this world is more

important than the sexual aspects that have been emphasized by many Western

writers on Tantra. It may be that such a focus is regional, and that West Bengal

is one of the few Tantric regions that has emphasized death and its symbolism as

the major path to the Goddess's paradise. With the focus on death rituals, it is

appropriate that the Tantric aides to transcendence are ghosts, who become help-

ers and protectors on the paths to Kali's heaven.

Research for this article comes from fieldwork in West Bengal, from 1993-1994,

on a Senior Scholar Fulbright Research Grant. The data in this biography come

from visits to the Bolpur Kali temple and to Tapan Goswami's house. The inter-

views were conducted in Bengali, as Tapan spoke no English.

Edited June 19, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

tantric systems are the pinnacle. especially female deities. This is true of all Dharma, including Buddhadharma.

[stefos]

tantric systems are the pinnacle. especially female deities. This is true of all Dharma, including Buddhadharma.

 

No, tantric systems aren' t the pinnacle.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen & Mahamudra are.

 

In Vedanta, Advaita Vedanta is.

 

What are you talking about?

 

In my experience most people who like tantra WANT the tantric freakishness & weirdness.

It becomes their "identity" and their fixation/obsession.

 

"Ooooo, I can drink nectar from kapalas!!" "Oh, I can do strange things & immoral things & be o.k. because I'm a tantric."

 

Most westerners don't know what tantra is.....Forget Advaita Vedanta or Dzogchen or Mahamudra....Go, ask & see.

 

Right.

Stefos

[RongzomFan]

Dzogchen and Mahamudra are tantra dude.

[RongzomFan]

In Vedanta, Advaita Vedanta is.

 

Who the hell cares about Vedanta? I'm talking about Vaishavism, Saivism, Shaktism as a whole. The tantric systems of these are the pinnacle, along with their philosophical foundation in Samkhya.

 

Of course some people promote the vedantization and creation of a homogenized Hinduism/sanatana dharma, thus destroying these traditions.

 

These terms are related :

Christianity

vedantization

European orientalism

homogenization

Edited May 18, 2013 by alwayson

[RiverSnake]

 

It is difficult to describe. You see, in this world everything is both difficult and

easy. It depends upon how you approach it. If a person has a proper guide, if he is

given much instruction and experience, if his guru watches him closely, then nothing

is difficult to attain. But the qualities (gunas) inherited from previous lives are also

important. Without the proper qualities, one cannot perform sadhana. If a person

was educated in this area in his previous life, then he could guide himself automat-

ically, and would not need anybody else.

 

I found this part quite interesting. Overall a good article. Thanks for sharing alwayson.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[DragonsNectar69k]

Yea skulls are interesting. Some so called "secret societies" or frats here in America tend to have skulls of historical figures in their lodges and temples. Skulls and Bones, Yale frat, supposedly has the skull of Geronimo in their layer.

[stefos]

Dzogchen and Mahamudra are tantra dude.

No man...They aren't bro.

 

There are "Tantras" which are books & then there is Tantra which is "Hindu" per se as it deals with energy flow primarily & Buddhist i.e. Vajrayana which deals with energy flow primarily

 

If you listen to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, he says:

1. Theravada is a Hinayana vehicle, one of many

2. Vajrayana, in and of itself, deals with energy: Chakras, Nadis, Prana, Bindu....No Bhandas are used in Vajrayana

3. Dzogchen is your ultimate nature not a teaching!

 

You've made scrambled eggs out of the whole deal brotherman.

Stefos

[stefos]

Who the hell cares about Vedanta? I'm talking about Vaishavism, Saivism, Shaktism as a whole. The tantric systems of these are the pinnacle, along with their philosophical foundation in Samkhya.

 

If you examine the Vedas, they point to the Upanishads.

 

The Upanishads point to Brahman, not Tantra. Realizing Brahman is liberation.

 

Why are you interested in Tantric systems? For the betterment of everyone or for power/self control for yourself exclusively?

 

This question of mine merits an answer....the right answer.

Stefos

[RongzomFan]

No man...They aren't bro.

There are "Tantras" which are books & then there is Tantra which is "Hindu" per se as it deals with energy flow primarily & Buddhist i.e. Vajrayana which deals with energy flow primarily

 

If you listen to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, he says:

1. Theravada is a Hinayana vehicle, one of many

2. Vajrayana, in and of itself, deals with energy: Chakras, Nadis, Prana, Bindu....No Bhandas are used in Vajrayana

3. Dzogchen is your ultimate nature not a teaching!

 

You've made scrambled eggs out of the whole deal brotherman.

Stefos

 

Everyone knows Mahamudra and Dzogchen are tantra. Have you not heard of the 17 tantras?

 

There are no bandhas in Vajrayana? Have you heard of trul khor and tummo?

Edited May 29, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Why are you interested in Tantric systems?

 

 

Why are you interested in tantric systems such as Dzogchen?

[stefos]

Everyone knows Mahamudra and Dzogchen are tantra. Have you not heard of the 17 tantras?

 

There are no bandhas in Vajrayana? Have you heard of trul khor and tummo?

Oops! Well, the 6 yogas of Naropa are different per se in that they are not the "traditional" Vajrayana of visualizing Vajrasattva & such. This much is true.

 

Besides, Bandhas were first used in "Hindu" circles not Buddhist! (Mohenjo Daro seals show this as fact)

 

Dzogchen, according to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is NOT a teaching but your real nature.

 

You are not right on about this.

 

I don't know about Mahamudra only that Mahamudra IS our state too. A Tibetan Lama told me this.

Edited May 29, 2013 by stefos

[stefos]

Why are you interested in tantric systems such as Dzogchen?

Dzogchen is our nature, not a book called a "Tantra" nor a Tantric system.

 

CNN stated this over & over again. Knock it off.

 

My reason for getting involved in Dzogchen was by reading the teachings which came through J. Krishnamurti.

Choiceless Awareness (same as Self Liberation)

Emptiness (same as "Buddhist" emptiness)

No self = the self being a construct of thought (similar to Buddhist concept of self but not quite)

 

Krishnamurti never denied God. He said in "The first & last freedom" "It would be foolish to deny God."

His definition of God was very different however.

 

Goodbye

[RongzomFan]

If you examine the Vedas, they point to the Upanishads.

 

The Upanishads point to Brahman, not Tantra.

 

But why should tantric Saivas, for example, adhere to Vedas and Upanishads in the first place?

Edited May 29, 2013 by alwayson

[stefos]

But why should tantric Saivas, for example, adhere to Vedas and Upanishads in the first place?

Wrong dude to ask brotherman........Ask the Saivas themselves!

 

Perhaps the tantras along with yogic postures date into pre-Buddhist times & have a link to the Vedas/Upanishads?

 

I don't know what that "link" would be by the way.

 

I don't know!

Stefos