RongzomFan Posted February 13, 2013 The issue is that most people haven't truly researched what they accept. Are you referring to yourself? Have you not researched Dzogchen tertons' experiences in various Pure Lands? You denigrate Pure Land Buddhism, while claiming to respect Dzogchen. You are a mess of contradictions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Are you referring to yourself? Have you not researched Dzogchen tertons' experiences in various Pure Lands? You denigrate Pure Land Buddhism, while claiming to respect Dzogchen. You are a mess of contradictions. No, Pure Land Buddhism is about chanting to a Buddha to "save one's self." This is not the Pali text portrayal of Nibbana AT ALL. A Dzogchen terton being in a pure land is one thing......The Pure Land cult is quite another. Dzogchen states that the nature of the mind IS free already, one just needs to access it. Pure Land posits Amitabha as a "saving Buddha" like Christ. Dzogchen & Pure Land are diametrically opposed. Stefos P.S. Have you considered what I stated to you in my prior post about researching early Buddhist history? Edited February 13, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 13, 2013 A Dzogchen terton being in a pure land in one thing......The Pure Land cult is quite another. Dzogchen & Pure Land are diametrically opposed. Stefos How do you figure? Its the same stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 13, 2013 How do you figure? Its the same stuff. Read the above post & consider your statement. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Read the above post & consider your statement. I think your arguments are full of contradictions. You say you respect Dzogchen. Dzogchen has Pure Lands. End of thread. Edited February 13, 2013 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 13, 2013 I think your arguments are full of contradictions. You say you respect Dzogchen. Dzogchen has Pure Lands. End of thread. Restart of thread: Dzogchen NEVER had a "Pure Land-pray to Amitabha for salvation" schema. Try reading "Self Liberation through seeing with Naked Awareness" by Guru Padmasambhava or a work by Sri Singha or the 3 statements of Garab Dorje.....All Dzogchen works Do your homework and come back. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 13, 2013 I don't think you understand Pure Lands at all. Pure Lands are merely bardo experiences. Praying to Amitabha generates a nice bardo experience, where one's wisdom manifests as a Pure Land. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 14, 2013 I don't think you understand Pure Lands at all. Pure Lands are merely bardo experiences. Praying to Amitabha generates a nice bardo experience, where one's wisdom manifests as a Pure Land. That might be in some traditions but not in Dzogchen. Again, In Dzogchen the nature of the mind is luminous, clear and free...that's it...the NATURE of the mind...it's essence.... The Pure Land Cult is past a bardo experience, past the rainbow body, past any form of Buddhist school of thought in history! Sorry but I flat out reject it outright. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 The Pure Land Cult is past a bardo experience, past the rainbow body, past any form of Buddhist school of thought in history! Sorry but I flat out reject it outright. Stefos Pure Lands are merely bardo experiences. Praying to Amitabha generates a nice bardo experience, where one's wisdom manifests as a Pure Land. And its part of Dzogchen: http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&q=Amitabha+Pure+Land+Dzogchen&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp&ei=RFMcUejFLa3y0wGJ74HwCw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42452523,d.dmQ&fp=5a1a69dc710b288&biw=926&bih=747 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 Have you heard of phowa? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Sorry but I flat out reject it outright. Stefos This is the strongest endorsement for Pure Land Buddhism. Edited February 14, 2013 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) "Bardo", or intermediate states, are just intermediate while still relying on the conscious mind "the mind which seizes upon conditions". Everything experienced is a state which ends until the discriminative mind is put to rest. The Pure Lands, if experienced by the cultivator while with a body, will appear as states indeed, yet when there is enough skill in means, when one's mind has reached a point of a purity in resonance with that of any of the Pure Lands, after one is done with their body, when their life comes to an end, and their cultivation is sincere, the cultivator will indeed, according to their vows and practice, in the Pure Land of Their mind. It is not a state at that point, nothing intermediate, and no its not a heaven. If it was a heaven, the cultivator would still be turning in the 6 paths of rebirth. If it were a state, the cultivator will still be subject to birth and death. The Buddha Speaks the Amitabha Sutra points it right out and simple, and Amitabha Buddha's vows and direction speak plain and clear about this. Its unfortunate that after the Buddha finished with his body,, generations after have misunderstood and even looked down on these teachings. So much in that the Buddha said it is the simplest method, yet no one will believe it. Thus it is a most difficult method in this reference. If anyone is truly interested in understanding the Pure Land Dharma Door, instead of reading from those who have no clue, why not seek out a Good and Wise Adviser, preferably those who have left home and have the capacity to explain such Dharma. There is Master Jing Kong, there is Master Xuan Hua, and their disciples. Even try to contact Venerable Wu Ling, disciple of Master Jing Kong. She is on Facebook (Ven. Wu Ling - I believe). I met her a few times, and had my disciple work with her on some illustration projects. My disciples have met her and chatted up a storm about various Dharma of Buddhist Education. Edited February 14, 2013 by 林愛偉 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted February 14, 2013 Tantric Theravada? http://abhidharma.ru/A/Vedalla/Content/0003.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 14, 2013 Tantric Theravada? http://abhidharma.ru/A/Vedalla/Content/0003.pdf There was a form of Tantrism in Sri Lanka, but it died out. Theravada is the dominant form of Buddhism in that country. http://www.buddhanet.net/sacred-island/nalanda.html 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 14, 2013 Again, In Dzogchen the nature of the mind is luminous, clear and free...that's it...the NATURE of the mind...it's essence.... This is only one aspect of the nature of mind, the other aspect is it's 'empty' nature. The nature of mind is described as the indivisibility of empty-luminosity. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 "Emptiness" in the context of the inseperable clarity and emptiness of the mind, means you cannot point to clarity with your finger. You cannot find clarity, nor get rid of clarity. It does not refer to regular emptiness. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 14, 2013 Pure Lands are merely bardo experiences. Praying to Amitabha generates a nice bardo experience, where one's wisdom manifests as a Pure Land. And its part of Dzogchen: http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&q=Amitabha+Pure+Land+Dzogchen&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp&ei=RFMcUejFLa3y0wGJ74HwCw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42452523,d.dmQ&fp=5a1a69dc710b288&biw=926&bih=747 In Dzogchen, pure land means one thing. In the Pure Land cult of Japan, it means something else with a different framwork and foundation ALTOGETHER. Don't put Dzogchen into the same basket as the Pure Land cult. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) This is only one aspect of the nature of mind, the other aspect is it's 'empty' nature. The nature of mind is described as the indivisibility of empty-luminosity. Again...Thank you! However, I understand this. The point here is Buddha and God.....The Pali texts posit devas or gods and Brahma a "God." 2 different beings. The Pali texts don't reflect the fullness of Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings. They are clearly ancient and they clearly, I believe, hold SOME of, if not a LOT of Shakyamuni's teachings but not all. The Pali texts are from the Theras and not the Sarvastivadas or any other ancient school. Untill I see something closer to the time of Shakyamuni....ALL texts & writings are subject to questioning by me considering the mess that happened to the original Sangha 150+yrs after Shakyamuni died. Finis Stefos Edited February 14, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Tantric Theravada? http://abhidharma.ru/A/Vedalla/Content/0003.pdf See what happens when someone ACTUALLY does their research? So much for Rationalistic Theravada glorification! LOL There was a form of Tantrism in Sri Lanka, but it died out. Theravada is the dominant form of Buddhism in that country. http://www.buddhanet.net/sacred-island/nalanda.html Exactly....."It died out"...........Hopefully Archeology discovers a lot more stuff like this. That is the reason why I say "Be leery of modern Buddhism, no matter how ancient unless...." No wonder the Theras use their tatoos and kasinas and now "mantras & yantras." This stuff is from Vedic sources. Nice........ The Buddha knew about Brahman alright....The Thera redactors of the Pali texts made the Buddha stupid & mute about this salient issue. Stefos Edited February 14, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 14, 2013 @ Alwayson, What do you think about this now? Quoting DAO rain TAO....... Quote: "Tantric Theravada? http://abhidharma.ru...ontent/0003.pdf End Quote Do you see how important historical understanding is now? You really need to research stuff man. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Do you see how important historical understanding is now? You really need to research stuff man. Stefos You are a funny guy. I've read countless books on Buddhism, which is evident if you read my posts. Edited February 14, 2013 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 See what happens when someone ACTUALLY does their research? So much for Rationalistic Theravada glorification! LOL This is hilarious, since you are the only one who loves Theravada in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 Untill I see something closer to the time of Shakyamuni....ALL texts & writings are subject to questioning by me considering the mess that happened to the original Sangha 150+yrs after Shakyamuni died. Finis Stefos You really need to read Nagarjuna's Reason Sixty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted February 14, 2013 In Dzogchen, pure land means one thing. In the Pure Land cult of Japan, it means something else with a different framwork and foundation ALTOGETHER. Don't put Dzogchen into the same basket as the Pure Land cult. Stefos Both are the exact same thing. Both can result in bardo experiences of Pure Lands. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted February 15, 2013 This is hilarious, since you are the only one who loves Theravada in the first place. No....I respect Theravada not love it. It is the only ancient school, to my understanding, alive. I wrote what I wrote in the context of the "Tantric Theravada" article posted by Dao rain Tao....actually Both are the exact same thing. Both can result in bardo experiences of Pure Lands. No, the philosophical background & framework of "Pure Land" Buddhism & Dzogchen are RADICALLY different hence the practices are ultimately different in ends. Research the matter and post. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
