A review of AYP from an ex practitioner

[gatito]

As I have said many times (in many threads), I like a bunch of the people on the AYP forum, but my practice focus has been different.

 

I also agree that healthy discussion of any path is useful and should not be a reason for banning.

 

 

But you don't practice it yourself because it "disagrees" with you.

 

It's ironic that you're actually yogani's nemesis on this forum by dragging the whole shambolic mess into the cold light of day.

 

Exactly hopw does it disagree with you Jeff?

[gatito]

As I have said many times (in many threads), I like a bunch of the people on the AYP forum, but my practice focus has been different.

 

I also agree that healthy discussion of any path is useful and should not be a reason for banning.

 

 

You missed this bit out Jeff

 

"Let's hope that this thread runs a bit longer so it makes it further up the Google rankings and people who are drawn to Yogani or yogani and Advanced Yoga Practices, AYPsite.org are able to come here and discuss their questions and concerns openly without being banned - like Tibetan Ice and me."

[gatito]

http://minet.org/

 

Is a useful resource for anyone thinking of taking up "Deep Meditation"

[gatito]

This is a good video: -

 

[Jeff]

 

You missed this bit out Jeff

 

"Let's hope that this thread runs a bit longer so it makes it further up the Google rankings and people who are drawn to Yogani or yogani and Advanced Yoga Practices, AYPsite.org are able to come here and discuss their questions and concerns openly without being banned - like Tibetan Ice and me."

 

Was that part relevant to my point...?

 

Also, I thought above you said you were done with the discussion...

 

 

(edit - added "with the discussion" part)

Edited December 7, 2012 by Jeff

[gatito]

An article entitled:-

Why I Believe The Transcendental Meditation Org Is Dangerous

 

http://tmfree.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/why-i-believe-transcendental-meditation.html

[gatito]

Was that part relevant to my point...?

 

Also, I thought above you said you were done...

 

 

How does it "disagree" with you Jeff?

[gatito]

You thought that I was done Jeff?

 

I've hardly begun...

[Jeff]

 

How does it "disagree" with you Jeff?

 

 

Are you asking why it was not a fit for me or how I think it could be improved?

[gatito]

 

Are you asking why it was not a fit for me or how I think it could be improved?

 

Neither Jeff.

 

I said: -

 

"How does it "disagree" with you Jeff?"

[gatito]

Research Demonstrating Harmful Effects From TM: -

 

http://www.behind-the-tm-facade.org/transcendental_meditation-harmful-abstracts.htm

 

(www.behind-the-tm-facade.org/transcendental_meditation-harmful-abstracts.htm)

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Yogani on concentration:

 

How does this cultivate concentration in the yogic sense? It is because, through this process of letting go, we become gradually more quiet inside, and then we are becoming a witness to all that is going on around us. Then when we want to put our attention on something, there is no question about concentration, because our awareness has become so all-encompassing that it totally penetrates whatever we put our attention on -- and it stays like that until we move our attention somewhere else.

 

Another idea that's kind-of right, but off in important ways. Mere letting go on the superficial level achieved through AYP just creates a bubble of torpor, which can be mistaken for clarity by someone who believes the 'inner silence' thing.

 

Just letting go in a passive way as in DM calms the surface mind (manas) but without fundamentally overhauling the thinking process. How could it? Without making awareness sharp and clear, you cannot access and transform any deeper. True letting go requires a letting go of ignorance, lax,restless, unhelpful mental processes from the very base of the mind: letting go of the actual causes of clinging. If you want to do this, you need to hone a sharp focus with a balance of the right level of effort.

 

At this point the constant flux of the manas will slow to just that one thought. Then you can pass beyond manas into the chitta, and keep going deeper. As wisdom dawns in the chitta, the buddhi shines and prajna grows in earnest. Then one can discriminate and concentrate on a deep level, enter samadhi (which has stages, it's not a nebulous 'pure bliss consciousness' as AYP says) and uncover pure consciousness. From there one can invert consciousness onto its basis and perceive the Self directly.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Seeker of the Self

[Jeff]

 

Another idea that's kind-of right, but off in important ways. Mere letting go on the superficial level achieved through AYP just creates a bubble of torpor, which can be mistaken for clarity by someone who believes the 'inner silence' thing.

 

Just letting go in a passive way as in DM calms the surface mind (manas) but without fundamentally overhauling the thinking process. How could it? Without making awareness sharp and clear, you cannot access and transform any deeper. True letting go requires a letting go of ignorance, lax,restless, unhelpful mental processes from the very base of the mind: letting go of the actual causes of clinging. If you want to do this, you need to hone a sharp focus with a balance of the right level of effort.

 

 

How do you know that the person is experiencing "torpor" or clarity? With AYP or any practice?

 

One does not truly know that they have let go of an issue/obstruction until they face the issue again. Also, I think any online/book system becomes very challenging as each person interprets words completely differently. That is one of the reasons why individual teachers become so important.

 

[Jeff]

Neither Jeff.

 

I said: -

 

"How does it "disagree" with you Jeff?"

 

Hi Gatito,

 

If you are not already a lawyer, you would make a good one... Treating me like a "hostile witness"...

 

To answer your question (positively), there are a few things that I think could be changed/improved upon...

 

While I think AYP has a good set of basic practices, there are a lot of challenges with any framework of the online/book delivery concept. Without a direct teacher, too much can be lost/confused without understanding. In the beginning stages, it is much easier to have a "one size fits all" approach, but as seekers advance and begin to experience energy, it becomes much more challenging.

 

Another issue, is that Yogani wants to help others and share his knowledge/experience, but he does not want to be a guru for the group. Since I have hung around AYP, he mostly leaves questions to forum members. There are 4 or 5 members who know what they are talking about to various levels, but the masses (like any forum), only think they understand, so they continually quote lessons (I would agree they can become a little religious ). Since AYP is a "defined" system, Yogani or a few other "approved" senior people should just be allowed to respond to higher level practice questions. Like any ashram, there should be some sort of hierarchy.

 

On basic practice specifics for beginners, I think it would be helpful to add a grounding component to the meditations (no place for excess energy to go). Also, I think AYP worries too much about avoiding the crown chakra.

 

With advanced students, you need to be able to "go under the covers", otherwise it is easy to be confused in/about consciousness. Also, one needs to have a better understanding of the energy/inquiry dynamic or it can create unnecessary problems that a true guru could manage for the person. A couple of the senior AYP people mentor others, but it is an informal "friend" system.

 

Overall, I would agree it could be more open in the AYP forums, but in my discussions with him, Yogani sees the purpose of the forum as to "explain AYP practices" rather than to discuss practices in general. (I have actually asked him to be more of a guru for the forums). But, to me, AYP is no different than the normal Buddhist site, try to debate their practices and see what happens... The Taobums is much more wide open, which one of the reasons I like to hang around here.

 

We may disagree on this, but I think there a lot of good (and some knowledgable) people who hang around AYP.

 

 

p.s. on "personally disagree with"... that is hard to tell as using words allow for many different interpretations.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

How do you know that the person is experiencing "torpor" or clarity? With AYP or any practice?

....

I think any online/book system becomes very challenging as each person interprets words completely differently.

 

Hi, Jeff. A good question. Obviously I can't look into someone else's mind, however I have several good reasons behind my opinions which correlate nicely with each other:

1. Personal experience - I did AYP daily for almost 2 years.
    
   
2. Others experience - TI did AYP for 4 and a half years and has said the same as me. Gatito did AYP too and also agrees.
    
   
3. Scientific evidence - studies on TM (which is the same as DM but just with a different mantra, as TM teachers have confirmed) have found that the effects on brainwaves are the same as mindlessly repeating a word until you space out.
    
   
4. Logical principles - it makes sense that a technique where no focused attention is used, just a slight favouring of the mantra, would lead to a dull state of mind alternating between listlessly using the mantra on autopilot and dull blankness.
    
   
5. Experience of AYP'ers - refer to the quote in the first post on this thread, the person reporting drifting into a sleepy state regularly. On the thread that came from, others report the same experience, and someone said it lasted for months for them!
    
   
6. AYP'ers report positive experiences, but - these are rare, and often include references to feeling dissosciated from reality, spaced-out, etc, so it's clear AYP'ers often mistake torpor for 'inner silence'.
   

On the interpreatation issue: Yogani makes his points on how the practices are to be done very clearly. Even if someone, e.g. reads the first lesson on meditation and is a bit dim, the points are repeated multiple times with various analogies.

 

easily and effortlessly in your mind. If your mind wanders off into other thoughts, you will eventually realize this has happened... When you realize you are not repeating the mantra, gently go back to it... The goal is not to stay on it. The goal is to follow the simple procedure of thinking the mantra, losing it, and coming back to it when you find you have lost it. Do not resist if the mantra tends to become less distinct. Thinking the mantra does not have to be with clear pronunciation... When you come back to it, come back to a level that is comfortable, not straining for either a clear or fuzzy pronunciation.

 

(The word 'fuzzy' alone should set off warning bells.) I think it's very clear what Yogani means here. A mindless, completely passive process.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Seeker of the Self

[Jeff]

Hi Seeker,

 

I do not have your two years of direct practice experience with AYP, so it makes no sense for me to debate on personal experience, but I also know large numbers of people who have had very positive experiences.

 

On interpretation issues... Just look at the endless AYP forum debates as to how to do deep meditation.

 

Specifically, I don't think things like "fuzzy" should set off warning bells. Meditation itself, is really just a contrived state of mind. Focusing/concentrating on anything (even a mantra) can become a mind trap. That is why I prefer more "Dzogchen like" practices.

 

What is your current path (practices)? What would you recommend?

 

Edited December 7, 2012 by Jeff

[gatito]

Hi Gatito,

 

If you are not already a lawyer, you would make a good one... Treating me like a "hostile witness"...

 

To answer your question (positively), there are a few things that I think could be changed/improved upon...

 

While I think AYP has a good set of basic practices, there are a lot of challenges with any framework of the online/book delivery concept. Without a direct teacher, too much can be lost/confused without understanding. In the beginning stages, it is much easier to have a "one size fits all" approach, but as seekers advance and begin to experience energy, it becomes much more challenging.

 

Another issue, is that Yogani wants to help others and share his knowledge/experience, but he does not want to be a guru for the group. Since I have hung around AYP, he mostly leaves questions to forum members. There are 4 or 5 members who know what they are talking about to various levels, but the masses (like any forum), only think they understand, so they continually quote lessons (I would agree they can become a little religious ). Since AYP is a "defined" system, Yogani or a few other "approved" senior people should just be allowed to respond to higher level practice questions. Like any ashram, there should be some sort of hierarchy.

 

On basic practice specifics for beginners, I think it would be helpful to add a grounding component to the meditations (no place for excess energy to go). Also, I think AYP worries too much about avoiding the crown chakra.

 

With advanced students, you need to be able to "go under the covers", otherwise it is easy to be confused in/about consciousness. Also, one needs to have a better understanding of the energy/inquiry dynamic or it can create unnecessary problems that a true guru could manage for the person. A couple of the senior AYP people mentor others, but it is an informal "friend" system.

 

Overall, I would agree it could be more open in the AYP forums, but in my discussions with him, Yogani sees the purpose of the forum as to "explain AYP practices" rather than to discuss practices in general. (I have actually asked him to be more of a guru for the forums). But, to me, AYP is no different than the normal Buddhist site, try to debate their practices and see what happens... The Taobums is much more wide open, which one of the reasons I like to hang around here.

 

We may disagree on this, but I think there a lot of good (and some knowledgable) people who hang around AYP.

 

 

p.s. on "personally disagree with"... that is hard to tell as using words allow for many different interpretations.

[Jeff]

Hi Gatito,

 

Was there some point I missed in your simple repost of my words above? Or, did you find some iPad auto spelling error you wanted to save?

 

Have a good weekend.

 

Edited December 7, 2012 by Jeff

[gatito]

Hi Gatito,

 

Was there some point I missed in your simple repost of my words above? Or, did you find some iPad auto spelling error you wanted to save?

 

Have a good weekend.

 

 

 

 

Q.E.D.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...I also know large numbers of people who have had very positive experiences...

Specifically, I don't think things like "fuzzy" should set off warning bells. Meditation itself, is really just a contrived state of mind. Focusing/concentrating on anything (even a mantra) can become a mind trap. That is why I prefer more "Dzogchen like" practices.

What is your current path (practices)? What would you recommend?

 

Yes, but when AYP'ers often describe positive 'inner silence' experiences, their account makes it clear that they actually experienced torpor or dissosciation, and mistook that for something good. They actually use terms like 'separate from reality', 'spaced out', etc. And if they do have actual good experiences like flashes of samadhi, they are rare and - this is important - do not increase in frequency as they continue practicing.

 

If AYP really strengthens, clarifies, develops, shouldn't long-term AYP'ers be on their way to mastering deeper levels of awareness? They just bob up and down - torpor mistaken for 'inner silence' about half the time, overload about half the time, very rare flashes of what valid practices would have made regular.

 

And aside from that, read my previous post again. Ignore the experience-based points for now. What about the scientific evidence? The logical principles? Surely STUDIES are evidence enough?

 

 

Jeff, how is fuzziness not a bad thing? Torpor is one of the '5 hindrances' for a reason. Allan Wallace - a Dzogchen guy - said as much here. I think his words were something like 'relaxed, but not spaced out. Alert.' Fuzziness is a weaker state of mind, the exact opposite of what we're trying to cultivate. BUT Yogani says over and over that the mantra in DM is supposed to refine, not to a subtle clarity, but to fuzziness.

 

 

I wouldn't say meditation is a contrived state of mind. Meditation is a tool to make the mind capable of looking within and realising the true nature of things. In an ideal reality we'd just be able to introspect for a moment and, hey presto, be enlightened, but who can actually do that? Only people who already have a finely tuned mind from previous practices. Dzogchen is not against meditation.

 

 

I list my practices on the first page of this thread. I can't suggest practices to people because only they can figure out what's right for them, HOWEVER if I think a practice in invalid entirely, I will suggest people avoid it. Hence, this thread on AYP.

[gatito]

I was eventually told that the practices are designed "to impair cognitive reasoning skills" and that AYP is an experiment and that the inner circle are expecting casualities but that it's "worth it"

[Jeff]

I was eventually told that the practices are designed "to impair cognitive reasoning skills" and that AYP is an experiment and that the inner circle are expecting casualities but that it's "worth it"

 

Who told you that? I would be very interested in such a reference.

 

[gatito]

Who told you that? I would be very interested in such a reference.

 

[Jeff]

 

Given such a response, I will have to assume there is no such reference.

 

[Jeff]

Hi Seeker,

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your post touches on quite of few points.

 

In general, I would agree that it is difficult for a beginner to be able to tell if they are really experiencing what AYP calls "inner silence", but this is true of any system where one just reads a book. That is one of the reasons why I think having a teacher is always helpful. Additionally, AYP a couple of years ago started having retreats to help teach. The fees for the retreats just cover facilities and instructors are not paid. An experienced practioner knows that with true "inner silence" there is a corresponding growth in the flow of energy. They are two sides of the same coin.

 

Your listed research was on TM and not AYP. I am personally not familiar with TM, but there are numerous posts on the AYP forum discussing the differences. The only research on AYP (meditation) that I am aware of is a clinical study being done at a health system in the Detroit area. The study is focused on heart/cardiac issues, but the results I have seen are very positive. I think the paper is being published soon.

 

The AYP forum has about 4800 members and 1800 who have posted. Most describe a much different experience than yours, but there is an endless number of experiences to read about.

 

Finally, there are many members at AYP who describe they have realized the Self (or various degrees). I have found them all willing to chat by email (or on the forum). I have my own opinions, but everyone can easily make their own judgement. You may not agree with the practices, but you surely must agree that they are very open (and chatty) group that are always happy to talk about their experiences.