"There's no such thing as that, except in this."

[seththewhite]

Reality is perceived.

 

Perception is a system of concepts (ex. Logic).

 

Communication is our means of conveying concepts to reassure reality.

 

Our system of concepts is consciousness.

 

Consciousness is our existence.

 

Existence is real Life.

 

In conclusion:

 

Everything is a concept, and Nothing is a concept.

 

Everything is Nothing...

 

at the very least, based upon commonality of concept- which is Something.

 

Something is considered true because others are considered false.

 

Therefore, true and false arise from each other.

 

This is Dualism, and That is all we know.

 

 

...but what do I know...

 

 

 

(I had a 5 hour philosophy conversation at a coffee shop with a friend of mine last week,

and these are some of the thoughts discussed put into form. I actually left that coffee shop

in tears because my friend was reduced to saying the opposite of whatever I said, because

he claimed that I was nonsensical... which not only left me feeling completely alone, Again,

but it also felt like a complete degradation of my ego... executed by a 'friend.'

Please comment if you have insight. Thanks!!)

[goldisheavy]

Reality is perceived.

 

Perception is a system of concepts (ex. Logic).

 

Communication is our means of conveying concepts to reassure reality.

 

Our system of concepts is consciousness.

 

Consciousness is our existence.

 

Existence is real Life.

 

In conclusion:

 

Everything is a concept, and Nothing is a concept.

 

Everything is Nothing...

 

at the very least, based upon commonality of concept- which is Something.

 

Something is considered true because others are considered false.

 

Therefore, true and false arise from each other.

 

This is Dualism, and That is all we know.

...but what do I know...

(I had a 5 hour philosophy conversation at a coffee shop with a friend of mine last week,

and these are some of the thoughts discussed put into form. I actually left that coffee shop

in tears because my friend was reduced to saying the opposite of whatever I said, because

he claimed that I was nonsensical... which not only left me feeling completely alone, Again,

but it also felt like a complete degradation of my ego... executed by a 'friend.'

Please comment if you have insight. Thanks!!)

 

You have a good intuition. But it takes a lot of skill to take something that you feel is intuitively correct and express it with undeniable hard logic. A lot of skill. Let me say this again: a lot of skill. And how do you get this skill? You must practice! Debate. Debate. Argue. Over and over. After about 10 years you'll get very good at this.

 

Then you will be like me. So let me tell you what happens next. You'll be able to argue so well, that people won't be able to deny your arguments logically, BUT... they still won't believe you! Ha ha! You still won't convince anyone. Once someone decides to hold to materialism, just pure logic will not win that person over. Even if you give the best argument, what you will win is silence. Your opponent will be silent, but they won't be convinced you're right. But don't take my word for it. Do it.

 

Debating skill is mostly good for your own internal use when you need to think something over. It's good for dissolving rigid boundaries internally. So it's still not a waste of time to develop it. But if you think your debating skills will win people over, I have a bridge to sell ya.

[seththewhite]

I'm not sure why I'd want a bridge Or debating skills...

but how much will they cost me??... Because I'm poor.

[Apech]

People like to disagree. Its to do with identity. You say white, they say black and so on. It makes them feel like someone. Its based on basic like/dislike functionality and the fact that the accumulation of the ego is made of a kind of jumble of this stuff. Rare beings actually care about the truth more than exercising their obstinate will. But they are few and far between. So if you meet someone who just argues and argues without any wish to come to any defined truth - just thank them for the lesson and leave.

[goldisheavy]

I'm not sure why I'd want a bridge Or debating skills...

but how much will they cost me??... Because I'm poor.

 

Can you find people willing to argue with you? Whatever it costs to find them, is what it costs. If you can afford an internet connection, you got it covered. Plus you have your friend.

 

You have to be deeply in touch with the contents of your own mind to be good at arguing. You have to know how you think and why, and this is neither easy nor obvious. Most people think, "These are my thoughts, of course I know how I think and why." The reality is that most people don't know what they think and why. At least, not as completely as they imagine. We often think some things without realizing we think them. And the reasons why may be buried deeply.

 

Being able to present your side of the argument is part logic and part psychology. It's part logic and part feeling. To be the best logician you must also be the best feeler of feelings. Logic is intimately tied to feelings and is not separate from them. And vice versa.

 

Be mindful 24/7. Pay attention. What does it cost to pay attention?

 

Why is it that what your friend said or acted touched you so? There is a reason. Find out why. Maybe a deep part of you really thinks the way your friend thinks and you don't want to admit this to yourself?

Edited December 18, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

You have a good intuition. But it takes a lot of skill to take something that you feel is intuitively correct and express it with undeniable hard logic. A lot of skill. Let me say this again: a lot of skill. And how do you get this skill? You must practice! Debate. Debate. Argue. Over and over. After about 10 years you'll get very good at this.

 

Then you will be like me. So let me tell you what happens next. You'll be able to argue so well, that people won't be able to deny your arguments logically, BUT... they still won't believe you! Ha ha! You still won't convince anyone. Once someone decides to hold to materialism, just pure logic will not win that person over. Even if you give the best argument, what you will win is silence. Your opponent will be silent, but they won't be convinced you're right. But don't take my word for it. Do it.

 

Debating skill is mostly good for your own internal use when you need to think something over. It's good for dissolving rigid boundaries internally. So it's still not a waste of time to develop it. But if you think your debating skills will win people over, I have a bridge to sell ya.

 

Ya, what's even better to realize is all arguments are all true and false at the same time....or can be. I used to love argument for the sake of it, I was real good at it, then one day I realized I was taking arguments that I didn't really even believe in and winning the debate every time. If I could do that I knew it didn't necessarily make the argument correct, yet I could give examples and evidence that certainly made them seem so. And like you said, all you ever really win is silence.

 

I knew that if this was so then there was always someone in the world who could come and 'win' the argument if they simply had the correct skills, it mattered not what the subject was. I then found it more interesting to argue with myself....the only times I ever lost was when I didn't have the knowledge or expanded viewpoint in order to win(on that side). It was then that, for the most part, I gave up, unless something was really important to me. Not easy having to slap the ego down every time it wants to open its mouth. But still, there were some benefits, intuition got better

 

You know Goldisheavy, you really remind me of someone I used to know, you really really do.

[seththewhite]

It's funny... the next day at work, my friend told me that on his way home that night

he realized that that there was nothing he could disprove in what I was saying,

and that was the source of his frustration...

He felt that he was really just arguing with himself.

He also apologized for the way he acted towards the end.

 

The reason he could not disprove anything I said

is because One cannot prove or disprove Existence.

It is all-encompassing, and to prove it false is to prove your non-existence.

As for that statement^, I'm sure someone could argue that point...

and actually, I would love to be privy to that conversation.

 

I, however, have no home in argument.

One man's truth is another man's bullshit... dualism is a cornerstone of the world.

Many people give dualism as a pejorative, but I take it as a compliment.

Through this website, I've found another website on nonduality...

which is new to me and extremely interesting!

 

As for why my friend brought me to tears:

It was not that his arguments were hitting too close to home...

that would require an existence-shattering, and I pray for that everyday.

Instead, I was saddened because I've struggled with the concept of 'friendship'

my entire life and whether or not it exists.

I went to the coffee house to have a conversation with a friend...

as in, at the very least, two people giving each other the benefit of the doubt

that both parties are competent thinkers who are not speaking to hear themselves speak.

Rather, they have come together to share and attempt to understand each others' ideas.

In his refutation of all of my statements (ex. "Goodbye Adam" - "Badbye"),

he was showing me in a minimalistic and egotistic way that he did not deem my

thoughts worthy of his time. Simply put-

he reduced me to nonsense by insinuating that my thoughts are bullshit.

That brought back all kinds of memories on why I couldn't trust 'friends,'

and it also hurt my ego... which Is something I must work on for me.

Luckily I spoke to a guide, and she told me to wait it out and have faith

 

Please take this into account:

It takes 2 fools to argue.

Edited December 18, 2009 by seththewhite