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moved here from original posted area:

 

Liezi 列子 , was also called 列禦寇 Lie Yukou.

 

 

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According to Giles:

Lieh-Tzü was major Taoist sage who lived c. 350 BCE. His writings use stories and fables to elucidate the Taoist philosophy of cooperating with nature; they illustrate the magical powers of the ancient sages who were so 'in the Tao' that they were able to prolong life, walk through solid rock, and levitate.

A.C. Graham's introduction to his translation, The Book of Lieh-Tzû, which he says was probably written about 300 AD.

 According to the Library of Chinese Classics book, Liezi:

Liezi was recorded to have been written in the Warring States Period by Liezi (alias Lie Yukou) of the state of Zheng, a contemporary of Duke Mu. According to Li Dai Zhen Xian Ti Dao Tong Jian Volume 6, as a man from Zheng, he lived at Bu for forty years without any fame. he followed Guan Yin for the Tao, and became a disciple of Huqiu first and then of Laoshang and Bogao, from whom he learned tehir teachings. Nine years later he was able to ride on the wind. This was most probably a legend told afteer his deification by Taoists.

 Liezi lived before Zhuangzi, therefore he is described a few times in Zhuangzi, which contains a chapter titled "Lie YuKou" and sometimes calls him Master Liezi. In the first year of Tianbao of Tang (742), he was conferred the title of Immortal of the Profound Void and regarded as one of the Taoist ancestors. His book was treated as one of the "true scriptures" together with Laozi and Zhuangzi and for this reason the book of Liezi wsa rename Chong Xu Zhen Jing ("The True Scripture of the Profound Void"). In the fourth year of Jingde of Song (1007), an imperial order was issued to add in the word of Zhi de ("highest virtue") so he became Immortal of the Highest Virtue of the Profound Void and his book was changed accordingly into Chong Xu Zhi De Zhen Jing ("The True Scripture of the Highest Virtue of the Profound Void"). When Emperor Huizong of Song was on the throng, a court academician was specially appointed to be in charge of Liezi and the book was placed in Dao Zhang ("The Collection of Taoist Scriptures").
 

 

 

 

TAOIST TEACHINGS FROM THE BOOK OF LIEH TZU
TRANSLATED FROM THE CHINESE,
WITH INTRODUCTION AND NOTES,
BY LIONEL GILES, M.A.

1912

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 “The history of Taoist philosophy may be conveniently divided into three stages: the primitive stage, the stage of development, and the stage of degeneration. The first of these stages is only known to us through the medium of a single semi-historical figure, the philosopher Lao Tzu, whose birth is traditionally assigned to the year 604 B.C. Some would place the beginnings of Taoism much earlier than this, and consequently regard Lao Tzu rather as an expounder than as the actual founder of the system ; just as Confucianism  that is, a moral code based on filial piety and buttressed by altruism and righteousness- may be said to have flourished long before Confucius.”

 Condensed into a single phrase, the injunction of Lao Tzu to mankind is, "Follow Nature."  This is a good practical equivalent for the Chinese expression," Get hold of Tao," although " Tao " does not exactly correspond to the word Nature, as ordinarily used by us to denote the sum of phenomena in this ever-changing universe. It seems to me, however, that the conception of Tao must have been reached, originally, through this channel. Lao Tzu, interpreting the plain facts of Nature before his eyes, concludes that behind her manifold workings there exists an ultimate Reality which in its essence is unfathomable and unknowable, yet manifests itself in laws of unfailing regularity. To this Essential Principle, this Power underlying the sensible phenomena of Nature, he gives, tentatively and with hesitation, the name of Tao, " the Way," though fully realizing the inadequacy of any name to express the idea of that which is beyond all power of comprehension.

 A foreigner, imbued with Christian ideas, naturally feels inclined to substitute for Tao the term by which he is accustomed to denote the supreme Being" God. But this is only admissible if he is prepared to use the term " God " in a much broader sense than we find in either the Old or the New Testament. That which chiefly impresses the Taoist in the operations of Nature is their absolute impersonality. The inexorable law of cause and effect seems to him equally removed from active goodness or benevolence on the one hand, and from active evil or malevolence on the other. This is a fact which will hardly be disputed by any intelligent observer. It is when he begins to draw inferences from it that the Taoist parts company from the average Christian. Believing, as he does, that the visible Universe is but a manifestation of the invisible Power behind it, he feels justified in arguing from the known to the unknown, and concluding that, whatever Tao may be in itself (which is unknowable), it is certainly not what we understand by a personal God " not a God endowed with the specific attributes of humanity, not even (and here we find a remarkable anticipation of Hegel) a conscious God. In other words, Tao transcends the illusory and unreal distinctions on which all human systems of morality depend, for in it all virtues and vices coalesce into One.

 The Christian takes a different view altogether. He prefers to ignore the facts which Nature shows him, or else he reads them in an arbitrary and one-sided manner. His God, if no longer anthropomorphic, is undeniably anthropopathic.  He is a personal Deity, now loving and merciful, now irascible and jealous, a Deity who is open to prayer and entreaty. With qualities such as these, it is difficult to see how he can be regarded as anything but a glorified Man. Which of these two views the Taoist or the Christian it is best for mankind to hold, may be a matter of dispute. There can be no doubt which is the more logical.  

 The weakness of Taoism lies in its application to the conduct of life. Lao Tzu was not content to be a metaphysician merely, he aspired to be a practical reformer as well. It was man's business, he thought, to model himself as closely as possible on the great Exemplar, Tao.

Very little is known of our author beyond what he tells us himself. His full name was Lieh Yu-k'ou, and it appears that he was living in the Cheng State not long before the year 398 B.C., when the Prime Minister Tzu Yang was killed in a revolution. He figures prominently in the pages of Chuang Tzu, from whom we learn that he could " ride upon the wind." On the insufficient ground that he is not mentioned by the historian Ssu-ma Ch'ien, a certain critic of the Sung dynasty was led to declare that Lieh Tzu was only a fictitious personage invented by Chuang Tzu, and that the treatise which passes under his name was a forgery of later times. This theory is rejected by the compilers of the great Catalogue of Ch'ien Lung's Library, who represent the cream of Chinese scholarship in the eighteenth century.

 

 

A.C. Graham wrote his original work in 1960 and 30 years later had this re-publication preface:

 

Preface to the Morningside Edition

A significant change since this book was first published in 196o is that we have learned to see philosophical Taoism in a new historical perspective. At that time it was already recognized that Lao-tzu, traditional founder of the School of the Tao (Way') and supposed contemporary of Confucius (551—479 B.C.), is probably legendary, and that the Tao-te-ching ascribed to him may be as late as 250 B.C., later than the authentic writings of  the other great Taoist, Chuang-tzu (c. 320 B.C.). But it was still taken for granted that the Hundred Schools competing during this period did include the one called Taoist, the only one of them to survive throughout Chinese history side by side with the Confucian. Its doctrine was assumed to be the philosophy o f the Tao-te-ching and Chuang-tzu, a philosophy which rejects the competing ways' formulated as ethical and political principles by other schools for an ineffable Way on which the sage finds himself in ceasing to judge between alternatives and in returning to the spontaneity of the non-human to unite with heaven and earth. On this assumption it was puzzling that what has generally passed as Taoism for the last two thousand years isa mixture in varying proportions of Yin-Yang cosmology, ritual, meditation, magic, sexology, and alchemy, and that it still has an organized church with Lao-tzu as its central deity, traditionally said to have been founded by Chang Tao-ling in AM.

How is one to reconcile its cult of physical immortality with the ecstatic welcoming of death as one of the inevitable transformations of nature which startles us in the writings of Chuang-tzu? No doubt one may think of this church like others as debasing the pure doctrine of its founder, but the Christian churches never departed quite as far from the gospel as this.

We were forgetting what inside our own tradition we know very well that labels such as idealist' and materialist', rationalist' and ' empiricist’, are applied retrospectively, and reshuffled as the focus of philosophical interest shifts elsewhere. The thinkers of ancient China came to be grouped as Taoists, Legalists, Sophists, Yin-Yang, but only the Confucians and Mohists are known to have been organized schools. Down to the 2nd century B.C. Lao-tzu, with his art of ruling by Doing Nothing, and Chuang-tzu, for whom rulership and office are burdens to be cast off, are never classed together; this attracts attention especially in the last chapter of Chuang-tzii itself, which sketches the oldest surviving history of the early thinkers. At the end of the classical age of Chinese philosophy, about 200 B.C., various eclectic movements were emerging, one of them centered on meditative and physical exercises to develop both daimonic powers and bodily health and longevity; it claimed the authority o f Laotzu.
 
When Ssu-ma T'an (died Ito B.C.) retrospectively classified the thinkers in Six Schools, it was this contemporary movement that he named Tao chia, ' School of the Way', as Hal Roth shows in Chinese Texts and Philosophical Contexts, ed. by Henry Rosemont, Jr. (La Salle, 111., 1990). The tradition of supposedly degenerate Taoism has had first right to the name from the very beginning.

In the retrospective apportioning of thinkers between schools, Chuang-tzu was classified with Lao-tzu as Taoist, but being irrelevant to the serious business of government, he was long neglected. It was from about A.D. 200, when the ancient books were being viewed in a changed perspective, that the distinctive attitude to spontaneity and the Way common to the Tao-to-ching and Chuang-tzii attracted the attention of literati disillusioned with politics. It became known as Lao-Chuang, the teaching of Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu. The accepted modem label for it is philosophical Taoism'; but as a way of life for the unworldly or the tired of office it remained largely dissociated from Taoist alchemy and magic, and had an offshoot in Chinese Buddhism as Ch'an or Zen. Its third great document, Lieh-tzu, although written in the name of an ancient sage mentioned by Chuangtzu, is now generally dated to this period, not much earlier than its commentary by Chang Chan (c. A.D. 370). We may see it as the only one of the three books whose author would actually be thinking of himself as a philosophical Taoist.

Although in 1960 most scholars in China already recognized the late date of Lieh-tzu, most Westerners were still disinclined to question its antiquity. My own textual studies, not yet completed when this translation first appeared, supported the Chinese dating, which by now prevails also in the West. The 'evidence for my opinions on the still controversial question of the date of Lieh-tzu mentioned in the original preface as unpublished, appeared in ' The Date and Composition of Lieh tzu', Asia Major vol. 8/2 (1961). This, as well as the ' Being in Western Philosophy Compared with shih/jei and yu/wu in Chinese Philosophy’ also mentioned, re-appeared in my Studies in Chinese Philosophy and Philosophical Literature (Institute of East Asian Philosophies, National University of Singapore, 1986).

One result of the textual investigation came as a surprise to me. The present book describes the hedonist' Yang Chu’ chapter as ' so unlike the rest of Lieh-tzu' that it must be from another hand (p. 135 below). The thought is certainly very different, and it does show the signs of editing and interpolation by the Taoist author which are noticed on p. 136 below. But although close scrutiny generally reveals marked differences in style between the body of the book and passages borrowed from earlier sources, I could find none to distinguish the hedonist chapter from the rest. It seems likely that the Taoist is incorporating an earlier writing by himself, from a hedonist phase in his own thought. From the contrasting episodes which introduce the 'Yellow Emperor’ and 'King Mu’ chapters (cf. pp. 6o f below), one is tempted to guess that the author, like the Yellow Emperor, had a hedonistic youth and then a Confucian career in government, before finally settling for Lao-Chuang. But to read autobiography into these episodes cannot of course be more than an attractive conjecture.

There also turned out to be internal evidence (and external evidence as well; see Studies, p. 271—an addition to the original paper) that the discussion of the finite and the infinite in the first three exchanges of the 'Questions o f T’ang’ comes from a lost part of Chuang-tzu. This adds greatly to the importance of a fascinating but obscure passage my treatment of which has left me with an uneasy conscience. The interpretation, and to some extent therefore the choice of words in translation, depended on the assumption that Chang Chan's commentary implies something missing in the text, which now seems to me very doubtful; in the neighbourhood of the supposed lacuna I was fooling myself when I claimed to be translating very literally' (p. 96 below). In more recent work I have translated it more conservatively, substantially as follows.

As for nothing it is limitless, as for something it is inexhaustible: how would I know it? [i.e., know of their limitedness and exhaustibility, referring back to the preceding question and answer.]
But outside the limitless there is nothing else that is limitless, inside the inexhaustible there is nothing else that is inexhaustible.  There is no limit but also nothing else that is limitless, no exhaustion but also nothing else that is inexhaustible. This is why I know of their limitlessness and inexhaustibility, and do not know of their limitedness and exhaustibility. [ The last chapter of Chuang-tzu records paradoxes of Hui Shih (and of the sophists in general, including the ' If you daily takeaway half which I carelessly ascribed to Hui Shih himself on p. 95 n2 below), but without their explanations. The importance of the redating of this passage is that if it does come from Hui Shih's friend Chuang-tzu, we can confidently accept it as a summary of the case for Hui Shih's paradox The South is boundless yet does have bounds'.  But what are the missing steps in the argument, which Chuang-tzu, as an intimate of sophists, could take for granted as common knowledge? A rather feeble explanation, which was the best I could offer until recently, is that things go on generating to infinity inside infinite space, but there can be no infinite inside the infinite. We need a stronger explanation which fits symmetrically the contrasting pairs 'nothing/something, limitless/inexhaustible, outside/inside’. As may be seen from the notes on p. 95 below, the sophists appreciated that a division however small will have inside it 'the absolutely small’, the point, also called the Lou hou, 'dimensionless'. Assuming that the point is still 'something', there can be a much neater explanation:
(1) The non-existent, Nothing, is infinite, yet there is no second infinite outside the infinite (as should follow if the infinite is what has nothing outside it).
(2) The existent, Something, is infinitely divisible, yet there is no second infinitely-divisible inside the infinitely-divisible (as should follow if the point is something). It seems to follow that, although space cannot be finite, it cannot be infinite either.

A. C. GRAHAM, 1990
 

See his works mentioned above:

The Date and Composition of Lieh-Tzu: (1961)

http://www2.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/file/1624KWHsUJf.pdf
 

Being in Western Philosophy Compared with Shih-Fei and Yu-Wu in Chinese Philosophy: https://www2.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/file/1802hIqTUeg.pdf

 

THE IDEA OF NATURE IN THE DAOIST CLASSIC OF LIEZI
BY
YIN-CHING CHEN
DISSERTATION
Submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements
for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in East Asian Languages & Cultures
in the Graduate College of the
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, 2012

 

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/31983/Chen_Yin-Ching.pdf?sequence=1

 

The Liezi is regarded the third of the Daoist classics following the Laozi and the Zhuangzi. A philosophical treatise attributed to the pre-Qin philosopher Lie Yukou 列御寇 (ca. fifth century B.C.) and recomposed during the Han (206 B.C.- 220 A.D.) and the Jin (265-420 A.D.) dynasties, the Liezi not only stands in the line of classical Daoist thought represented by Laozi (sixth or fifth century B.C.) and Zhuangzi (ca. 369-286 B.C.), but also incorporates later traditions including the Huang-Lao Daoism and Neo-Daoism. More than a philosophical treatise, the Liezi is also a revered Daoist religious scripture. During the Tang dynasty (618-907 A.D.), the book of Liezi is entitled “True Scripture of Emptiness” (沖虛真經) by the Tang Emperor Xuanzong (685-762 A.D.), and the philosopher Liezi was honored with the title “True Man of Emptiness” (沖虛真人). Furthermore, the Tang  Emepror Xuanzong selected the four major Daoist classics of the Laozi, the Zhuangzi, the Liezi, and the Wenzi to be textbooks for civil service examination. During the Song dynasty (A.D. 960-1279), the book of Liezi was further honored “True Scripture of the Highest Virtue of Emptiness” (沖虛至德真經), and the philosopher Liezi “Perfect Sovereign of Emptiness and Sublime Contemplation” (沖虛觀妙真君) by the Song Emperor Zhenzong (968-1022 A.D.). In the Daozang (道藏), the official collection of Daoist texts complied by the Ming court (1368-1644 A.D.), the Liezi was placed with the Laozi (also known as the Daodejing) and the Zhuangzi as the major Daoist canons.

 I. The Text

1. The Philosopher Liezi and the Book of Liezi
 

The Book of Liezi is attributed to the Daoist philosopher Lie Yukou 列御寇, who lived around the fifth century B.C. and was senior to Zhuangzi (between 399 and 295 B.C.). The historical figure Liezi is recorded in several ancient texts including the Zhanguo ce 戰國策, the Lü shi chunqiu 呂氏春秋, the Shizi 尸子, etc., among which the Zhuangzi 莊子 includes twenty two accounts of Liezi. Hence the Book of Han bibliography section 漢書藝 文志 suggests, based on the fact that Zhuangzi quotes Liezi, Liezi must have lived before Zhuangzi. As recorded in the Zhanguo ce 戰國策 (Strategies of the Warring States), an ambassador of the Han 韓 state named Shi Ji 史疾 was sent to the Chu 楚 state. The king of Chu was troubled by banditry in the country so he consulted Shi Ji about his policy. Shi Ji answered, “I followed the words of Master Lie Yukou, who honors propriety (zheng 正).”

Qian Mu comments this passage in his Textual Research of Pre-Qin Philosophers, “This account proves that Lie Yukou was a historical figure. Shi Ji heard and learned his theory, which followed the Confucian idea of rectifying names and signifies the beginning of the Daoist and Legalist schools.”  It is notable that Master Lie’s first name is “Yu-kou” 御寇, which means “guarding against bandits.” It is possible that Liezi was known for his success in maintaining social security. Concerning Liezi’s Daoist orientation, the Lü shi chunqiu 呂氏春秋 (Mister Lu’s Spring and Autumn Annals) and the Shizi 尸子 both records that “Liezi honors emptiness (xu 虛).”

 

According to Gao You’s commentary, Liezi is a Daoist adept, who emptied the worldly thought and desires in his mind until it is in accordance with the Way.

 

 

I, Robot: Self as Machine in the Liezi
Jeffrey L. Richey

 

Introduction
Q. I thought you were dead.
A. Technically I was never alive, but thanks for your concern.ii

 [ii Human detective Del Spooner to robot Sonny in I, Robot (dir.
Alex Proyas, 20th Century Fox, 2004).]

The commitment of early Taoist thought to so#called “natural” values has been much remarked upon, and it is not difficult to understand why this is so. Organic metaphors permeate texts such as Laozi 老子and Zhuangzi 莊子. Contrasts between the “artificial” realm of culture (wen 文) and the “authentic” realm of the Tao 道 are frequently drawn, and organisms such as fishes and trees are favorite representations of the “perfected person” (zhenren 眞人).iii “Nature,” of course, is a semantically slippery term in any language, but it may be said that what early Taoists mean by “nature” is expressed in the term ziran 自然: “what is so of itself”
or “spontaneity.” According to these early texts, that which is so of itself is “natural,” while that which alters its original pattern is not.

It may come as a surprise, then, to discover within the Liezi 列列 (a fourth#century CE text eponymously titled after the thinker who is supposed by pious Taoists to have lived six or seven hundred years earlier) two tales that celebrate embodiments of artificiality: an uncannily lifelike mechanical man, and an actual man who moves like a “machine” (xie 械). In the first episode, King Mu of Zhou 周周周 (r. 900s BCE) is first entertained, then scandalized, and finally wonderstruck by a man#made humanoid contraption that performs music and dances for his court. In the second, a quotation from the apocryphal “Book of the Yellow Emperor” (Huangdi zhi shu 黃黃黃黃) describes the “highest man” (zhiren 至至) as one “like a machine” (ruoxie 若械), whose actions are autonomous and
unconscious. Why did the compiler(s) of the Liezi choose to tell these stories? What position do these perfectly unnatural figures occupy within the work as a whole? Finally, what can their appearance in the Liezi tell us about Taoist thought about the self and embodiment on the cusp between the classical and medieval periods?

 

Additional information from the Library of Chinese Classics book, Liezi, written in 2005:

 

Liezi consists of eight chapters:

 

Revelation

The Yellow Emperor

King Mu of Zhou

Confucius

The Queries of Tang

Power and Destiny

Yang Zhu

Causuality

 

Revelations serves as the purport of the book... everything in the world is in constant change; the change is permanent... all things start from immateriality and to materiality and their development may be divided into four groups called:

1. The Great Change

2. The Great Conception

3. The Great Beginning

4. The Great simplicity

 

The Yellow Emperor is made up of 19 short stories to tell people the way to health preservation and self-cultivation; man should follow the laws of nature instead of going against it.

King Mu of Zhou scientifically explains dreams, holding that what one dreams at night is closely related to what one sees and thinks during the day and that different dreams results from different states of health.  

 

Confucius stresses the unique rules of nature and the understanding of world by means of the Tao so as to not violate the natural world.  Meanwhile it offers the the theory that "things will develop in opposite direction when they become extreme". 

 

The Queries of Tang holds that all things of the world are mutually dependent in motion and meanwhile are found in a state of balance and that all things and events are different in nature, and therefore, man should not consider himself always right or persistent in his opinions.  

 

Power and Destiny claims that the completion of affairs rests with heaven, the change of natural environment is beyond the power of man and therefore man has no alternative but to follow its rules of change.  At the same time, it holds that the decision of good or evil, nobility or humility, and poverty or wealth rests with destiny instead of human power. 

 

Yang Zhu thinks that man lives for fame and profit, the pursuit exhausts both his body and mind; therefore the best way to keep body and soul pleasant is moderation.  

 

Causality explains the destiny of man and nation by the extent to which natural laws are understood and the corresponding actions taken and advises man to understand these laws and make use of them.  

 

 

17 minutes ago, C T said:

Me bully him? I hope you're saying that in jest. You should read into the tones of some his posts first before judging my response. Thank you very much 

 

On 4/14/2020 at 10:54 AM, C T said:

Then you are refusing to be real and woke. 

 

 

Further comment will be fruitless since your mind's all made up already. 

 

 

On 4/14/2020 at 11:10 AM, C T said:

Whatever.

 

Been scanning some of your posts on other threads. Dubious at best. 

Could be wrong (though doubtful I am), but this bs meter I have's gone all a buzzin' about your participation here. 

 

 

12 hours ago, C T said:

If only life was always so clear cut 

there'd be paradise on earth

 

2 major theories as decreed by an obscure internet guy

got it

 

I read his tone in this thread.   At least he seems passionate about the topic and has a position that can be discussed, if one chooses to actually discuss something besides trying to degrade the other, and resting their position on peanut butter.  (BTW, I did find that somewhat funny).   I'm just saying.   How about we discuss the issue or just not bother with someone we seem to not like to have a discussion with.   

 

There appears to a recent trend to try and run people out of their own threads.  If this site culling and purging is meant to be anything useful, it ought to be to get to a better place of discussion which means we can allow others to have their opinions. 

 

 

[Apologies to OP on derailing]

LIEZI - Chapter 2 - The Yellow Emperor

 

Graham

 

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This chapter is concerned with the Taoist principle of action. Faced with an obstacle, the unenlightened man begins to think about possible benefit and injury, and ponder alternative courses of action. But this thinking does him harm instead of good. A gambler plays better for tiles than for money, because he does not bother to think; a good swimmer learns to handle a boat quickly, because he does not care if it turns over; a drunken man falling from a cart escapes with his life because, being unconscious, he does not stiffen himself before collision. It is especially dangerous to be conscious of oneself. A woman aware that she is beautiful ceases to be beautiful; teachers aware of their own merit soon degenerate.

Boatmen, swimmers and insect-catchers do not think what to do next and are not conscious of themselves; their minds are totally concentrated on the object, to which they react without intermediate thought. One whose mind is a pure mirror of his situation, unaware of himself and therefore making no distinction between advantage and danger, will act with absolute assurance, and nothing will stand in his way. The man who is in harmony is absolutely the same as other things, and no thing succeeds in wounding or obstructing him. To pass through metal and stone, and tread through water and fire, are all possible. Not that such powers are his goal; even when he gets them, he may not want to put on such a vulgar performance. Confucius himself is one who, though able to do it, is able not to do it .

Outside things can obstruct and injure us only if we are assertive instead of adaptable. To take a simile from the Tao-te ching, we must be like water making its way through cracks. If  we do not try to impose our will, but adjust ourselves to the object, we shall find the Way round or though it. The softer a substance is, the narrower the crack through which it can pass; the absolutely soft comes out of nothingness and finds its way where there is no crack .' Wang Pi (226-249), commenting on this passage, writes: The air (ch'i) fords its way in everywhere, water passes through everything.  'The tenuous, non-existent, soft and weak goes through everything; nothingness cannot be confined, the softest thing cannot be snapped.'

Possession of the Way is thus a capacity for dealing effortlessly with external things. Its theoretical limit is absolute power, or rather absolute liberty; for the whole point is that, instead of controlling things, the sage ceases to be obstructed by them. Lieh-tzu riding the winds is an image, not o f mastery, but o f free, unimpeded movement.

Giles:
2.1
The Yellow Emperor sat for fifteen years on the throne, and rejoiced that the Empire looked up to him as its head. He was careful of his physical well-being, sought pleasures for his ears and eyes, and gratified his senses of smell and taste. Nevertheless, he grew melancholy in spirit, his complexion became sallow, and his sensations became dull and confused. Then, for a further period of fifteen years, he grieved that the Empire was in disorder; he summoned up all his intelligence, exhausted his resources of wisdom and strength in trying to rule the people. But, in spite of all, his face remained haggard and pale, and his sensations dull and confused. 'The practice of enlightened virtue will not succeed in establishing good government, but only disorganize the spiritual faculties!

 

Then the Yellow Emperor sighed heavily and said: 'My fault is want of moderation. The misery I suffer comes from over-attention to my own self, and the troubles of the Empire from over-regulation in everything.' Thereupon, he threw up all his schemes, abandoned his ancestral palace, dismissed his attendants, removed all the hanging bells, cut down the delicacies of his cuisine, and retired to live at leisure in private apartments attached to the Court. There he fasted in heart, and brought his body under control.

 

[Fasting in heart means freeing oneself from earthly desires, after which, says the commentator, the body will naturally be under control. Actual abstention from food or other forms of bodily mortification are not intended. See Musings of a Chinese Mystic, p. 71.]

 

For three months he abstained from personal intervention in government. Then he fell asleep in the daytime, and dreamed that he made a journey to the kingdom of Hua-hsü, situated I know not how many tens of thousands of miles distant from the Ch'i State. It was beyond the reach of ship or vehicle or any mortal foot. Only the soul could travel so far.

 

[In sleep, the hun or spiritual part of the soul is supposed by the Chinese, to quit the body.]

 

This kingdom was without head or ruler; it simply went on of itself. Its people were without desires or cravings; they simply followed their natural instincts. They felt neither joy in life nor abhorrence of death; thus they came to no untimely ends. They felt neither attachment to self nor indifference to others; thus they were exempt from love and hatred alike. They knew neither aversion from one course nor inclination to another;  hence profit and loss existed not among them. All were equally untouched by the emotions of love and sympathy, of jealousy and fear. Water had no power to drown them, nor fire to burn; cuts and blows caused them neither injury nor pain, scratching or tickling could not make them itch. They bestrode the air as though treading on solid earth; they were cradled in space as though resting in a bed. Clouds and mist obstructed not their vision, thunder-peals could not stun their ears, physical beauty disturbed not their hearts, mountains and valleys hindered not their steps. They moved about like gods.

 

When the Yellow Emperor awoke from his dream, he summoned his three Ministers and told them what he had seen. 'For three months,' he said, 'I have been living a life of leisure, fasting in heart, subduing my body, and casting about in my mind for the true method of nourishing my own life and regulating the lives of others. But I failed to discover the secret.

'It is wrong to nourish one's own life, wrong to regulate those of others. No attempt to do this by the light of intelligence can be successful.'   Worn out, I fell asleep and dreamed this dream. Now I know that the Perfect Way is not to be sought through the senses. This Way I know and hold within me, yet I cannot impart it to you.'

 

'If the Way cannot be sought through the senses, it cannot be communicated through the senses.'  For twenty-eight years after this, there was great orderliness in the Empire, nearly equalling that in the kingdom of Hua-hsü. And when the Emperor ascended on high, the people bewailed him for two hundred years without intermission.

 

2.2
Lieh Tzu had Lao Shang for his teacher, and Po Kao Tzu for his friend. When he had fully mastered the system of these two philosophers, he rode home again on the wings of the wind.

 

[Cf. Chuang Tzu, ch. 1: 'There was Lieh Tzu again. He could ride upon the wind, and travel whither soever he wished, staying away as long as fifteen days.']

 

Yin Sheng heard of this, and became his disciple. He dwelt with Lieh Tzu for many months without Visiting his own home. While he was with him, he begged to be Initiated into his secret arts. Ten times he asked, and each time received no answer. Becoming impatient Yin Sheng announced his departure, but Lieh Tzu still gave no sign. So Yin Sheng went away, but after many months his mind was still unsettled, so he returned and became his follower once more. Lieh Tzu said to him: 'Why this incessant going and coming?' Yin Shêng replied: 'Some time ago, I sought instruction from you, Sir, but you would not tell me anything. That made me vexed with you. But now I have got rid of that feeling, and so I have come again.' Lieh Tzu said: 'Formerly, I used to think you were a man of penetration, and have you now fallen so low? Sit down, and I will tell you what I learned from my Master. After I had served him, and enjoyed the friendship of Po Kao, for the space of three years, my mind did not venture to reflect on right and my wrong, my lips did not venture to speak of profit and loss. Then, for the first time, my Master bestowed one glance upon me--and that was all.

 

'To be in reality entertaining the ideas of profit and loss, though without venturing to utter them, is a case of hiding one's resentment and harbouring secret passions; hence a mere glance was vouchsafed.'  'At the end of five years a change had taken place; my mind was reflecting on right and wrong, and my lips were speaking of profit and loss. Then, for the first time, my Master relaxed his countenance and smiled. 'Right and wrong, profit and loss, are the fixed principles prevailing in the world of sense. To let the mind reflect on what it will, to let the lips utter what they please, and not grudgingly bottle it up in one's breast, so that the internal and the external may become as one, is still not so good as passing beyond the bounds of self and abstaining from all manifestation. This first step, however, pleased the Master and caused him to give a smile.'

 

'At the end of seven years, there was another change. I let my mind reflect on what it would, but it no longer occupied itself with right and wrong. I let my lips utter whatsoever they pleased, but they no longer spoke of profit and loss. Then, at last, my Master led me in to sit on the mat beside him. 'The question is, how to bring the mind into a state of calm, in which there is no thinking or mental activity; how to keep the lips silent, with only natural inhalation and exhalation going on. If you give yourself up to mental perfection, right and wrong will cease to exist; if the lips follow their natural law they know not profit or loss. Their ways agreeing, Master and friend sat side by side with him on the same seat. That was only as it should be.'

 

'At the end of nine years my mind gave free rein to its reflections, my mouth free passage to its speech. Of right and wrong, profit and loss, I had no knowledge, either as touching myself or others. I knew neither that the Master was my instructor, nor that the other man was my friend. Internal and External were blended into Unity. After that, there was no distinction between eye and ear, ear and nose, nose and mouth: all were the same. My mind was frozen, my body in dissolution, my flesh and bones all melted together. I was wholly unconscious of what my body was resting on, or what was under my feet. I was borne this way and that on the wind, like dry chaff or leaves falling from a tree. In fact, I knew not whether the wind was riding on me or I on the wind. Now, you have not spent one whole season in your teacher's house, and yet you have lost patience two or three times already.  Why, at this rate, the atmosphere will never support an atom of your body, and even the earth will be unequal to the weight of one of your limbs!

 

The only way to etherealize the body being to purge the mind of its passions. How can you expect to walk in the void or to be charioted on the wind?' Hearing this, Yin Sheng was deeply ashamed. He could hardly trust himself to breathe, and it was long ere he ventured to utter another word.

 

2.3

Mr Fan had a son named Tzu Hua, who succeeded in achieving great fame as an exponent of the black art, and the whole kingdom bowed down before him. He was in high favour with the Prince of Chin, taking no office but standing on a par with the three Ministers of State. Any one on whom he turned a partial eye was marked out for distinction; while those of whom he spoke unfavourably were forthwith banished. People thronged his hall in the same way as they went to Court. Tzu Hua used to encourage his followers to contend amongst themselves, so that the clever ones were always bullying the slowwitted, and the strong riding rough-shod over the weak. Though this resulted in blows and wounds being dealt before his eyes, he was not in the habit of troubling about it. Day and night, this sort of thing served as an amusement, and practically became a custom in the State.

 

One day, Ho Shêng and Tzu Po, two of Fan's leading disciples, set off on a journey and, after traversing a stretch of wild country, they put up for the night in the hut of an old peasant named Shang Ch'iu Wai. During the night, the two travellers conversed together, speaking of Tzu Hua's reputation and influence, his power over life and death, and how he could make the rich man poor and the poor man rich. Now, Shang Ch'iu Wai was living on the border of starvation. He had crept round under the window and overheard this conversation. Accordingly, he borrowed some provisions and, shouldering his basket, set off for Tzu Hua's establishment. This man's followers, however, were a worldly set, who wore silken garments and rode in high carriages and stalked about with their noses in the air. Seeing that Shang Ch'iu Wai was a weak old man, with a weather-beaten face and clothes of no particular cut, they one and all despised him.

 

Soon he became a regular target for their insults and ridicule, being hustled about and slapped on the back and what not. Shang Ch'iu K'ai, however, never showed the least annoyance, and at last the disciples, having exhausted their wit on him in this way, grew tired of the fun. So, by way of a jest, they took the old man with them to the top of a cliff, and the word was passed round that whosoever dared to throw himself over would be rewarded with a hundred ounces of silver. There was an eager response, and Shang Ch'iu K'ai, in perfect good faith, was the first to leap over the edge. And lo! he was wafted down to earth like a bird on the wing, not a bone or muscle of his body being hurt. Mr Fan's disciples, regarding this as a lucky chance, were merely surprised, but not yet moved to great wonder. Then they pointed to a bend in the foaming river below, saying: 'There is a precious pearl at the bottom of that river, which can be had for the diving.' Ch'iu K'ai again acted on their suggestion and plunged in. And when he came out, sure enough he held a pearl in his hand.

 

Then, at last, the whole company began to suspect the truth, and Tzu Hua gave orders that an array of costly viands and silken raiment should be prepared; then suddenly a great fire was kindled round the pile. 'If you can walk through the midst of these flames,' he said, 'you are welcome to keep what you can get of these embroidered stuffs, be it much or little, as a reward.' Without moving a muscle of his face, Shang Ch'iu K'ai walked straight into the fire, and came back again with his garments unsoiled and his body unsinged.

 

Mr Fan and his disciples now realized that he was in possession of Tao, and all began to make their apologies, saying: 'We did not know, Sir, that you had Tao, and were only playing a trick on you. We insulted you, not knowing that you were a divine man. You have exposed our stupidity, our deafness and out blindness. May we venture to ask what the Great Secret is?' 'Secret I have none,' replied Shang Ch'iu K'ai. 'Even in my own mind I have no clue as to the real cause. Nevertheless, there is one point in it all which I must try to explain to you. A short time ago, Sir, two disciples of yours came and put up for the night in my hut. I heard them extolling Mr Fan's powers--how he could dispense life and death at his will, and how he was able to make the rich man poor and the poor man rich. I believed this implicitly, and as the distance was not very great I came hither.

 

Having arrived, I unreservedly accepted as true all the statements made by your disciples, and was only afraid lest the opportunity might never come of putting them triumphantly to the proof I knew not what part of space my body occupied, nor yet where danger lurked. My mind was simply One, and material objects thus offered no resistance. That is all. But now, having discovered that your disciples were deceiving me, my inner man is thrown into a state of doubt and perplexity, while outwardly my senses of sight and hearing re-assert themselves. When I reflect that I have just had a providential escape from being drowned and burned to death, my heart within me freezes with horror, and my limbs tremble with fear. I shall never again have the courage to go near water or fire.'  From that time forth, when Mr Fan's disciples happened to meet a beggar or a poor horse-doctor on the road, so far from jeering at him, they would actually dismount and offer him a humble salute.  

 

Tsai Wo heard this story, and told it to Confucius. 'Is this so strange to you? was the reply. 'The man of perfect faith can extend his influence to inanimate things and disembodied spirits; he can move heaven and earth, and fly to the six cardinal points without encountering any hindrance.

 

[Compare the familiar passage in the Bible (Matt. xvii. 20).]

 

His powers are not confined to walking in perilous places and passing through water and fire. If Shang Ch'iu K'ai, who put his faith in falsehoods, found no obstacle in external matter, how much more certainly will that be so when both parties are equally sincere! Young man, bear this in mind.' In Shang Ch'iu K'ai's case, though he himself was sincere, his Master Fan Tzu Hua was merely an impostor.

 

2.4

 

The Keeper of Animals under King Hsüan, of the Chou dynasty, had an assistant named Liang Yang, who was skilled in the management of wild birds and beasts. When he fed them in their park-enclosure, all the animals showed themselves tame and tractable, although they comprised tigers, wolves, eagles and ospreys. Male and female freely propagated their kind, and their numbers multiplied.

 

[The difficulty of getting wild animals to breed in captivity is well known to naturalists.]

 

The different species lived promiscuously together, yet they never clawed nor bit one another.

The King was afraid lest this man's secret should die with him, and commanded him to impart it to the Keeper. So Liang Yang appeared before the Keeper and said: 'I am only a humble servant, and have really nothing to impart. I fear his Majesty thinks I am hiding something from you. With regard to my method of feeding tigers, all I have to say is this: when yielded to, they are pleased; when opposed, they are angry. Such is the natural disposition of all living creatures. But neither their pleasure nor their anger is manifested without a cause. Both are really excited by opposition. Anger directly, pleasure indirectly, owing to the natural reaction when the opposition is overcome.

'In feeding tigers, then, I avoid giving them either live animals or whole carcases, lest in the former case the act of killing, in the latter the act of tearing them to pieces, should excite them to fury.

 

Again, I time their periods of hunger and repletion, and I gain a full understanding of the causes of their anger. Tigers are of a different species from man, but, like him, they respond to those who coax them with food, and consequently the act of killing their victims tends to provoke them. This being so, I should not think of opposing them and thus provoking their anger; neither do I humour them and thus cause them to feel pleased. For this feeling of pleasure will in time be succeeded by anger, just as anger must invariably be succeeded by pleasure. Neither of these states hits the proper mean. Hence it is my aim to be neither antagonistic nor compliant, so that the animals regard me as one of themselves. Thus it happens that they walk about the park without regretting the tall forests and the broad marshes, and rest in the enclosure without yearning for the lonely mountains and the dark valleys. Such are the principles which have led to the results you see.'

 

2.5

There was once a man, a sailor by profession, who was very fond of sea-gulls. Every morning he went into the sea and swam about in their midst, at which times a hundred gulls and more would constantly flock about him.  'Creatures are not shy of those whom they feel to be in mental and bodily harmony with themselves.'

 

One day his father said to him: 'I am told that sea-gulls swim about with you in the water. I wish you would catch one or two for me to make pets of' On the following day, the sailor went down to the sea as usual, but lo! the gulls only wheeled about in the air and would not alight.  'There was disturbance in his mind, accompanied by a change in his outward demeanour; thus the birds became conscious of the fact that he was a human being. How could their instinct be deceived?'

 

2.6

Chao Hsiang Tzu led out a company of a hundred thousand men to hunt in the Central Mountains. Lighting the dry undergrowth, they set fire to the whole forest, and the glow of the flames was visible for a hundred miles around. Suddenly a man appeared, emerging from a rocky cliff,

 

[That is to say, passing miraculously out of the actual stone itself.]

 

and was seen to hover in the air amidst the flames and the smoke. Everybody took him for a disembodied spirit. When the fire had passed, he walked quietly out, and showed no trace of having been through the ordeal. Hsiang Tzu marvelled thereat, and detained him for the purpose of careful examination. In bodily form he was undoubtedly a man, possessing the seven channels of sense, besides which his breathing and his voice also proclaimed him a man. So the prince inquired what secret power it was that enabled him to dwell in rock and to walk through fire. 'What do you mean by rock? replied the man; 'what do you mean by fire? Hsiang Tzu said: 'What you just now came out of is rock; what you just how walked through is fire.' 'I know nothing of them,' replied the man.

 

'It was this extreme feat of unconsciousness that enabled him to perform the above feats.'

The incident came to the ears of Marquis Wên of the Wei State, who spoke to Tzu Hsia about it, saying: 'What an extraordinary man this must be!' 'From what I have heard the Master say,' replied Tzu Hsia, 'the man who achieves harmony with Tao enters into close unison with external objects, and none of them has the power to harm or hinder him. Passing through solid metal or stone, walking in the midst of fire or on the surface of water--all these things become possible to him.' 'Why, my friend,' asked the Marquis, 'cannot you do all this? 'I have not yet succeeded,' said Tzu Hsia, 'in cleansing my heart of impurities and discarding Wisdom. I can only find leisure to discuss the matter in tentative fashion.' 'And why,' pursued the Marquis, 'does not the Master himself perform these feats? 'The Master,' replied Tzu' Hsia, 'is is able to do these things, but he is also able to refrain from doing them.' Which answer hugely delighted the Marquis.

 

There may be similarity in understanding without similarity in outward form. There may also be similarity in form without similarity in understanding. The Sage embraces similarity of understanding and pays no regard to similarity of form. The world in general is attracted by similarity of form, but remains indifferent to similarity of understanding. Those creatures that resemble them in shape they love and consort with; those that differ from them in shape they fear and keep at a distance. The creature that has a skeleton seven feet long,

 

[The Chinese foot at that time being considerably shorter than ours.]

 

hands differently shaped from the feet, hair on its head, and an even set of teeth in its jaws, and walks erect, is called a man. But it does not follow that a man may not have the mind of a brute.

 

Even though this be the case, other men will still recognize him as one of their own species in virtue of his outward form. Creatures which have wings on the back or horns on the head, serrated teeth or extensile talons, which fly overhead or run on all fours, are called birds and beasts. But it does not follow that a bird or a beast may not have the mind of a man. Yet, even if this be so, it is nevertheless assigned to another species because of the difference in form. P'ao Hsi, Nü Kua, Shên Nung and Hsia Hou had serpents' bodies, human faces, ox-heads and tigers' snouts. Thus, their forms were not human, yet their virtue was of the saintliest. Chieh of the Hsia dynasty, Chou of the Yin, Huan of the Lu State, and Mu of the Ch'u State, were in all external respects, as facial appearance and Possession of the seven channels of sense, like unto other men; yet they had the minds of savage brutes. Howbeit, in seeking perfect understanding, men attend to the outward form alone, which will not bring them near to it.

 

When the Yellow Emperor fought with Yen Ti on the field of P'an-ch'üan, his vanguard was composed of bears, wolves, panthers, lynxes and tigers, while his ensign-bearers were eagles, ospreys, falcons and kites. This was forcible impressment of animals into the service of man. The Emperor Yao entrusted K'uei with the regulation of music.  K'uei was a composite being, half beast, half man, of irreproachable virtue. His son, on the other hand, is said to have had 'the heart of a pig'. He was insatiably gluttonous, covetous and quarrelsome.

 

When the latter tapped the musical stone in varying cadence, all the animals danced to the sound of the music. When the Shao in its nine variations was heard on the flute, the phśnix itself flew down to assist. This was the attraction of animals by the power of music. In what, then, do the minds of birds and beasts differ from the minds of men? Their shapes and the sounds they utter are different from ours, and they know no way of communicating with us. But the wisdom and penetration of the Sage are unlimited: that is why he is able to lead then, to do his bidding. The intelligence of animals is innate, even as that of man. Their common desire is for self-preservation, but they do not borrow their knowledge from men.

 

There is pairing between the male and the female, and mutual attachment between the mother and her young. They shun the open plain and keep to the mountainous parts; they flee the cold and make for warmth; when they settle, they gather in flocks; when they travel, they preserve a fixed order. The young ones are stationed in the middle, the stronger ones place themselves on the outside. They show one another the way to the drinking-places, and call to their fellows when there is food. In the earliest ages, they dwelt and moved about in company with man. It was not until the age of emperors and kings that they began to be afraid and broke away into scattered bands. And now, in this final period, they habitually hide and keep out of man's way so as to avoid injury at his hands. At the present day, in the country of the Chieh clan to the east, the people can often interpret the language of the six domestic animals, although they have probably but an imperfect understanding of it.

 

In remote antiquity, there were men of divine enlightenment who were perfectly acquainted with the feelings and habits of all living things, and thoroughly understood the languages of the various species. They brought them together, trained them, and admitted them to their society, exactly like human beings....These sages declared that, in mind and understanding, there was no wide gulf between any of the living species endowed with blood and breath. And therefore, knowing that this was so, they omitted nothing from their course of training and instruction.

2.7

Hui Yang went to visit Prince K'ang of the Sung State. The Prince, however, stamped his foot, rasped his throat, and said angrily: 'The things I like are courage and strength. I am not fond of your good and virtuous people. What can a stranger like you have to teach me? 'I have a secret,' replied Hui Yang, 'whereby my opponent, however brave or strong, can be prevented from harming me either by thrust or by blow. Would not your Highness care to know that secret? 'Capital!' exclaimed K'ang; 'that is certainly something I should like to hear about.' Hui Yang went on: 'To render ineffectual the stabs and blows of one's opponent is indeed to cover him with shame. But my secret is one which will make your opponent, however brave or strong, afraid to stab or to strike at all! His being afraid, however, does not always imply that he has not the will to do so.

 

Now, my secret method operates so that even the will is absent. Not having the will to harm, however, does not necessarily connote the desire to love and to do good. But my secret is one whereby every man, woman and child in the Empire shall be inspired with the friendly desire to love and do good to one another! This is something that transcends all social distinctions, and is much better than the mere possession of courage and strength. Has your Highness no mind to acquire such a secret as this?' 'Nay,' said the Prince, 'I am anxious to learn it. What is the secret, pray?' 'Nothing else,' replied Hui Yang, 'than the teachings of Confucius and Mo Tzu.

 

[A famous philosopher who flourished about 400 B.C. and propounded, chiefly on utilitarian grounds, the doctrine of 'universal love'.]

 

Neither of these two men possessed any land, and yet they were princes; they held no official rank, and yet they were leaders. All the inhabitants of the Empire, old and young, used to crane their necks and stand on tiptoe to catch a glimpse of them. For it was their object to bring peace and happiness to all. Now, your Highness is lord of ten thousand chariots. A conventional way of saying that Swig was a feudal State of the first class. If you are sincere in your purpose, all the people within the four borders of your realm will reap the benefit, and the fame of your virtue will far exceed that of Confucius or of Mo Tzu.'

 

[They not having enjoyed the advantage of ruling over a large State.]

 

The Prince of Sung found himself at loss for an answer, and Hui Yang quickly withdrew. Then the Prince turned to his courtiers and said: 'A forcible argument! This stranger has carried me away by his eloquence.'

13 hours ago, Immortal4life said:

Your article just says it's a mystery and hasn't been conclusively solved.

 

It's either the wet market or the Wuhan lab. And it's not at all unreasonable to speculate that if it is the Wuhan lab that's the exact kind of thing China would do deliberately. 

 

it's unrealistic to think they will close down any wet markets.   They should have some changes effected but they are not going away.

 

The Pentagon has said their intelligence has also looked at these origin issues and while evidence tends to point to nature, it is not settled.   And I think that continues to show the reasonableness in continuing to look at the Lab origin.   Which does not have to be deliberate in the way you are saying.  It can be:

1. Deliberately spread and released

2. Deliberately sold as animal food (this is known to occur... which pulls in unintentional spread)

3. Accidental infection in lab

4. Accidental spread in lab

 

 

10 hours ago, C T said:

Dont you think its a worthwhile endeavour to weed out the falsehoods instead of buying into propaganda and spreading it like peanut butter? It wont change the facts, but it'll certainly make a difference separating facts from fallacies. Opens up options so that one is not confined to eating peanut butter every single day. That guy above is saying its either peanut butter or bust. I don't like peanut butter. 

 

The other day, you were arguing a conspiracy theory that the spread to the rest of the world was not from China... followed by the conspiracy movement that the administration would fire Fauci.  Yes, falsehood should be evaluated as otherwise we're getting worse than Fox News here on Bums.

 

If you disagree with his idea, just present your own, but you seem to just want to bully him. This is the new norm here being passed off as 'discussion'. 

 

If the topic is so binary, then don't eat peanut butter. 

@Trunk

6 hours ago, dawei said:

BTW:  I'm glad you brought up Russia as it remains on my mind to look at more.   Thanks.

 

The main thing I've read so far is that Russia, so the criticism goes, is doing the opposite of counting deaths as the US.  In the US, if a person gets infected by covid-19 and dies they are attributing it to the virus.  There is some loose applications being told online (if a mother dies of pneumonia without being tested but it is found that the son was infected then that should count as the virus. I'm not sure I would agree without the coroner blood testing).

 

But in Russia, the death certificate tends to reflect what you died of (heart attack, pneumonia, etc), even if infected.  So it may be that those without any pre-existing conditions who died and were infected are the ones they count as covid-19 deaths.  

39 minutes ago, C T said:

There's quite a difference between people becoming fearful/resentful of visiting Chinatown and this.... 

 

https://beingasianaustralian.net/2020/04/08/covid-19-racism-in-australia-making-asian-australians-stunned-confused-and-fearful/?fbclid=IwAR35ikmthE7K4FaeIVQdwDuTnf0vUZ6rtncZUC0OP82EpQrzGub_8HfkoKg

 

Fearful of visiting chinatown is on the low end of the spectrum... burning down hospitals on the high end.

 

There has already been rioting and looting in the US. Chinese attacked in NY and on the subway areas.  Screaming at them about their eating habits, etc.  I've seen non-chinese asians attack chinese.  Its all appalling treatment and historical.   I'm likely more sensitive as my wife and step-daughter talk about whether they should show their face in some places.   

 

BTW:  I'm glad you brought up Russia as it remains on my mind to look at more.   Thanks.

6 minutes ago, C T said:

 

This is exactly the narrative coming out of the White House, but as of this period, despite the massive movement of mainlanders in and out of Russia throughout all the time before border restrictions were enforced, it just seems odd that the Russian figures are suggesting some sort of anomaly. Im disinclined to believe that all of sudden, in the run up to the lunar new year, the hordes of Chinese travellers suddenly decided to avoid Russia in favour of all these other countries you cited above. Its more like patchwork than anything else when looking at the overall spread on a map with Russia very much a standalone in terms of (low) infection activity. Could be they cooked the books, but a quick glance at Moscow Times confirms the low numbers, although this does not mean Russia is not doing what China is being accused of. As an aside, no thanks to Trump's xenophobic rhetoric, Australia, the UK and Im sure the US as well are reporting spikes in race-hate crimes fuelled by echoes from the man himself. 

 

Everything I wrote is from Wash Post, WSJ, and other sources stating the start (Patient 1) in various countries.   This is all public info.   I said I researched it myself.  Anyone can.

 

We also know that between the outbreak in Wuhan till the US closed flights from china that 450,000 chinese traveled to the US.  Our mistake was not closing it from Europe too. 

 

As to Russia, I only found they enacted border restrictions very early, earlier than the US on flights.   Given how China is thought to report lower than actual, and North Korea still claims not a single death... I don't know that Russia's numbers are reported correctly. But one thing we know, if you don't test there is nothing to report.  Taomeow stated this quite a while ago and I agree. 

 

I will agree that the Russian figures don't really make sense but again, neither did Africa's for a while... till they started reporting their testing.  

 

I am personally more inclined to think it is a number's cover-up than a avoidance to travel to Russia because the latter doesn't make much sense to me... but leaves it at the lack of reported infections don't make sense. 

 

As to hate crimes, it is a historical fact that pandemics incite discrimination.   Most would be appalled at past actions.  If anyone didn't see such outcomes, it is nonetheless well documented.   Certainly, everywhere is best served by messaging away from separating mankind. 

 

In 1858, a mob burned down a massive quarantine hospital on Staten Island. Locals “were afraid that immigrants were carrying yellow fever, especially Irish immigrants,” Jacobs said. Pandemics can intensify fears of “the other,” and exacerbate racist myths about foreigners being diseased or unclean.

 

With sars, in 2003, you’d see people stopping going to Chinatown” in Manhattan. She noted a similar reaction to covid-19, which has given rise to “these kinds of informal ideas that it’s anything to do with your race rather than where you happen to have travelled from,” she said. “This inflammatory language, or alarmist rhetoric, happens so quickly, and is not based on any facts.

 

Attacking members of the Chinese community over the coronavirus is exactly the same thing as attacking members of the Muslim community over leaving Europe: there is no logical connection. This is a completely illogical act.

 

 

When the 2014 Ebola epidemic made its way from West Africa to the U.S., the panic—along with misinformation, fear, and discrimination—spread faster than the virus itself. 

6 hours ago, Phantalor said:

Has any one of you even remotely looked at the creation date of the thread?? ... js

 

that's irreverent irrelevant...  this is a screw loose topic though

 

46 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

My uncles are insisting to me over WhatsApp that the virus is a US bioweapon gone awry. This theory is apparently quite popular on Chinese social media.

 

very much so

 

57 minutes ago, C T said:

And why have Russia been seeing such low numbers despite it being a top attraction to Chinese visitors/tourists? 2019 saw 1.5 million mainlanders passing thru Russian borders. This is enough to debunk Trump's claim that it was the Chinese who spread the bug globally during the run-up to the lunar new year. 

 

I have not heard this conspiracy theory.  that the spread did not come out of China.

 

The Wash. Post reported on Feb. 1 that 20 countries were already affected.   Hundreds of millions of chinese were traveling for the holidays. 

 

I could not find an exact list of countries so looked some up myself.  The US, Korea, Thailand, France, Russia, Germany, Japan, Cambodia, Vietnam, Taiwan, Australia, Spain, Italy, UK, Canada, India... all reported the first case(s) in January and ties to chinese traveling.    The next wave of countries was in Feb-March.

 

As for Russia... the same was said of Africa at one point but no longer (in terms of low incident).  Russia started restricting their border in late January. 

8 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

Yes, my question is how does one verify the Tao for themselves?

 

The zen way.  When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep.

 

You want some cosmic awakening? 

5 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I know that Trump gave you these ideas, but "some effectiveness" without data is meaningless. I also read the links you provided and the following is important to note. There is a vast difference between in vitro and in vivo. The study is quite small with limitations as cited below. I cited the PDR on this awhile back in this thread and one would be wise to read the well known contraindications and underlying conditions which would prove problematic.

 

 

 

This NY Doctor has made extraordinary claims, but so far has provided no evidence.

 

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2020/03/30/New-York-doctor-touts-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-as-coronavirus-treatment

 

Trump Is behind the Chinese and French studies and told me there are public reports by researchers...

 

Please.  

 

These are public reports. 

 

 

5 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

So I think using that as a frame of reference I'm going to try to frame this cosmologically rather than philosophically.

 

My understanding of Taoist cosmology is that Tao is the origin, then there was wuji or the "one" then yin yang or the "two" and so on and so forth.

 So I'm going to assume that whatever there was before the big bang or whatever there was that caused the big bang that is Tao. As well as the principles that continued to operate and form the universe after the big bang.

 

Dao is not a thing.

 

When it is put prior to One, it is a kind of theoretical One.  

 

I'm with Starjumper here but Flowing Hands has explained it too.

56 minutes ago, dawei said:

There were studies in France and China that suggested some effectiveness. 

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v2

 

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2020/03/28/Hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin-effective-in-treating-coronavirus-French-study

 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/chloroquine-and-hydroxychloroquine-current-evidence-for-their-effectiveness-in-treating-covid-19/

 

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

You apparently didn’t read the links in the quote. Or, taken into consideration the lack of effectiveness and dangers of the drugs Trump is hot on! In your world view just give this stuff out in vast quantities and see what happens. 

 

Whether I read those articles is irrelevant to the fact that China and France shared results regarding it too.   So did you read their results?   Likely not, and that is ok.    It just means there are differing outcomes so far... so there needs to be more testing.

 

That is my my world view:  countries (including the US) are testing them.   I have no problem in letting scientist/researchers decide what to test.   

 

 

I would say there is nothing that is not Dao... just that one Way may not be the same as another Way. 

49 minutes ago, ralis said:

A recent study has found that Hydrochloroquine, Chloroquine and Azithromycin are not effective treatments for COVID-19. Trump has given many false hope by repeating that he really feels really good about these drugs being a "game changer."

 

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/04/a-small-trial-finds-that-hydroxychloroquine-is-not-effective-for-treating-coronavirus/

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0399077X20300858?via%3Dihub

 

 

There were studies in France and China that suggested some effectiveness.  This likely spurred the rest of the world, and even NY City to test it.   Let them test and see what comes of it.  Even if it is only relatively effective for a certain group or type, it is worth understanding.   

 

23 minutes ago, C T said:

 

This Hydrochloroquine wonder drug that Trump is harping on about is believed to be supplied to the Fed Govt by Rising Pharmaceuticals, a subsidiary of the bankrupted Aceto Corp. Ordinarily, this won't be so interesting, but with Trump plugging a drug linked to a bankrupted company, that is revealing in itself. 

 

Was denied access when I wanted to find out who were sitting on Aceto's board of directors. 

 

http://investor.aceto.com/corporate-governance/board-of-directors

 

Well... 6,000 does round up to 10,000

 

There used to be 50,000 'entries' and years ago there was an action to remove those who didn't actually post in the end.  

 

Then there are those who do post but the number who post less than a few is higher than who is active.  This has been the case since the beginning.  

 

I’ve found you have inner seeing... not about self but beyond to deities.  That is definitely a few screws loose.  Thank screwless gods. 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Actually ,  I changed my mind and had baked beans instead 

and knocked out a horse?

 

 

I was talking with my wife about this recently.  The lack of data is there but those who got infected and then infected their entire family did include the children... just that they are not fatalities.   This at least side steps the question of why are they not prone to catch it and just talk about those that did.  

 

I have only speculation.  That their systems are much 'cleaner' to start with and less prone to having junk stick to it.  No emotional or psychological issues to start with... and even if sick, they are not dreading whether this is their last breath.   I read the stories of surviving adults who talk like they believed they were on death's bed... the sheer panic of it all comes through their tale.  I think the kids just want to go outside to play, even if sick. 

 

I think there is a moral (or three) to this story though... 

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

 

It's getting exciting now, floks.  Italy, with 7375, is rocketing ahead of South Korea, with 7382, and will be in the lead any minute now.  Iran with 6566 already, is giving them a close race.

 

France and Germany, although some distance behind Italy, are accelerating nicely now, with France at 1126, and Germany at 902.  Who knows how it will turn out?

 

Trailing close behind are Spain, the US, and Japan, with 613, 547, and 499.  The US, with almost no good test kits or testing, has pulled ahead of Japan and is giving Spain a run for its money.  Money?  Who said money?

 

Stay tuned for tomorrow folks, where we'll see that the US has passed Spain and is pulling ahead strongly to catch Germany in a couple of days.  Keep your fingers crossed.  Who the winner is, is still up in the air, and get ready to bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

 

Korea is a bit atypical... but they also came up with a 'drive-thru' check...  

 

I think it really boils down to: either you enforce aggressive containment or you pretend like nothing is going on... 

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

 

The problem with links and quotes is that people edit out the offending material before they’re caught and this documents it. There are plenty of free hosting services like drop box and imgur.

 

That's true.  Another problem we found in the newest version is in Reports... in the past, it preserved the original thread... but now if you edit that thread, it show it more like it was linked to... so editing an original thread will remove the report content.

 

I think you have a good alternative idea. 

38 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

When the Trump talk threads were full on you stated that Trump was usually joking around! Are you ready to open your eyes and see just how dangerous he is?

 

Sorry... did we teleport to another thread... I have no idea what you are referring to.

 

The temperature angle has been discussed in china for more than a month, almost two.    There are folks trying to understand this.