Mark Foote

Other way 'round, for me--it's bring the conscious to the unconscious: There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground)

With my familiar, Sophie:

As [one] abides in body contemplating body, either some bodily object arises. or bodily discomfort or drowsiness of mind scatters [one’s] thoughts abroad to externals. Thereupon… [one’s] attention should be directed to some pleasurable object of thought. As [one] thus directs it to some pleasurable object of thought. delight springs up in [one’s being]. In [one] thus delighted, arises zest. Full of zest [one’s] body is calmed down. With body so calmed [one] experiences ease. The mind of one at ease is concentrated. [One] thus reflects: The aim on which I set my mind I have attained. Come. let me withdraw my mind (from the pleasurable object of thought). So [one] withdraws [one’s] mind therefrom, and neither starts nor carries on thought-process. Thus [one] is fully conscious: I am without thought initial or sustained. I am inwardly mindful. I am at ease. Again … [one] abides contemplating feelings … mind… [one] abides contemplating mind-states in mind-states… [as before with the body]. Such… is the practice for the direction of mind. And what… is the practice for the non-direction of mind? [First,] by not directing [one’s] mind to externals, [one] is fully aware: My mind is not directed to externals. Then [one] is fully aware: My mind is not concentrated either on what is before or on what is behind, but it is set free, it is undirected. Then [one] is fully aware: In body contemplatlng body I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease. And [one] does the same with regard to feelings … to mind… and mind-states. Thus [one] is fully aware: In mind-states contemplating mind-states I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.” (SN V 155-156, Vol V pp 135-136) If you’re studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still. (“Lancet of Seated Meditation”, Dogen, quote attributed to Great Master Hung-tao of Yueh shan, tr. Carl Bielefeldt “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, 1st Ed.) Last but not least: So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom. (“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added) There’s a particular transition in zazen that I believe Suzuki was referring to. Here’s a description I made of that transition: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read the transcript. (What Shunryu Suzuki Actually Said)

I wouldn't count on science alone, with regard to lowering stress levels or finding "good" posture. As I wrote to friends recently, I don't expect I'll ever be an exemplar of good posture, but I can hope to accord more with my own nature, and maybe acquire a feeling for the posture I need. That's my take on "good posture".

How so, do you think? I'll give you some examples. First, an explanation of the first line of the famous poem by Fuxi: In the 6th century C.E. in China, the Buddhist monk Fuxi wrote: The empty hand grasps the hoe handle Walking along, I ride the ox The ox crosses the wooden bridge The bridge is flowing, the water is still (“Zen’s Chinese Heritage”, translation by Andy Ferguson, pg 2) Another translation: The handless hold the hoe. A pedestrian walks, riding on a water buffalo. A man passes over the bridge; The bridge (but) not the water flows. (Ch’an and Zen Teaching, Series One by Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk); Rider & Co., London, 1960, pp. 143-145. Translated from The Imperial Selection of Ch’an Sayings (Yu Hsuan Yu Lu) [Yuxuan yulu (Imperial Selections of Recorded Sayings / Emperor’s Selection of Quotations)]) I would say “the empty hand grasps the hoe handle” is a reference to the role of ligaments at the sacrum in generating activity related to posture. Here’s a summary of a study that confirms that some of the activity of the lower body is “regulated” by the iliosacral ligaments: This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability. (Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049 https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/) (Appendix–“For a Friend”, Revisited) Second example, maybe some light on Yuanwu's explanation of case 17 in the Blue Cliff Record: Answering the monk who asked, “What is the meaning of the Patriarch’s coming from the West?”, Hsiang Lin said, “Sitting for a long time becomes toilsome.” If you understand this way, you are “turning to the left, turning to the right, following up behind.” (Yuanwu, ‘Blue Cliff Record’, Shambala publications pg 110) “Turning to the left, turning to the right”—stretch in the ilio-tibial bands sets off reciprocal innervation of the left and right sartorious muscles, and consequently reciprocal activity in the tensor and gluteous muscles. The result is a subtle “turning to the left, turning to the right” in an upright posture, and a stretch in the fascia behind the sacrum and the lower spine. “Following up behind”—the combination of pressure from the “fluid ball” of the abdomen and stretch and resile in the fascia behind the sacrum and lower spine allows the vertebrae of the spine to find alignment, and permits the fascia behind the spine to provide support. (Appendix–Kinesthesiology of Fascial Support) More details on that last paragraph are on my site. Gautama taught four initial states of concentration, culminating in the cessation of ("doing something" in) inbreathing and outbreathing, then five further states culminating in the cessation of ("doing something" in) feeling and perceiving. The first three of the further states were excellences of the heart's release through the extension of the minds of compassion, of sympathetic joy, and of equanimity, extension through the four quarters of the world, above, below, without limit. I would say the states of concentration that he taught therefore involved both science and empathy, but things as they are (the cessations of "doing something") have to be experienced to be believed. That's because the action does not cease, but the actor does. So for example, the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing occurs when breath in the consciousness-informed body takes place without a breather. Inbreathing and outbreathing per se does not cease, but "doing something" in the consciousness-informed body with respect to inbreathing and outbreathing does cease. Things as they are, or as Shunryu Suzuki said, "things as it is". Suzuki's emphasis was on "just sitting".

I usually watch the news, see what friends have posted on Facebook, and then lately watch an episode of Perry Mason. I sit for 25 minutes before bed, sloppy half-lotus. Lately I seem to be sitting longer than 25, and sometimes two sittings. Mostly up again after 4 or 5 hours of sleep. I do some Tai Chi and maybe another sitting, then back to bed for a few more hours, if I can. Up at 7 or 8 and a cup of coffee, another sitting or two, start my day.

senryu, love you some senryu, you sure do me, I like the rain

I've been working under the assumption that Western science will one day help to explain the wisdom teachings of the world. Also, although it's true that there's an aspect of the Eastern teachings that has to be experienced to be believed, I would say a better job can be done in describing such experience, and in describing the place of such experience in everyday life. . It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”... (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970) Shunryu Suzuki said: To enjoy our life– complicated life, difficult life– without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen. (“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco) I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom. ("To Enjoy Our Life")

What's real, would ask this-- haiku on the haiku thread oh one, so in touch!

Shunryu Suzuki said: To enjoy our life– complicated life, difficult life– without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen ("just sitting"). (“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; parenthetical on zazen added) I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom. ("To Enjoy Our Life") That's wu wei in daily life, to me: the breath without a breather, as the necessity takes place.

unite yin and yang fire and water, inverted who's to say what's real!

Gautama described his way of living as four arisings of mindfulness, sixteen thoughts initial and sustained, inhaling and exhaling. There were four connected with the mind, and I like I. B. Horner's translation for them: One trains oneself , thinking: ‘I will breathe in… breathe out experiencing thought… rejoicing in thought… concentrating thought… freeing thought.’ (MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III p 124) F. L. Woodward translates that last part as: Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276) In my experience, it's not possible to "free thought", or to "detach the mind", without first accepting and even "rejoicing" in thought.

best don't be that sure it will come around again that spot in the sun

A favorite, o brother by another mother, though I prefer the Weavers' rendition. Checking the history via Wikipedia: Alan Lomax published a completely different version, that he heard from a sailor called J.M. Hunt in 1935 We're sailing down the river from Liverpool[4] Heave away Santy Anno Around Cape Horn to Frisco Bay Along the plains of Mexico The Weavers made that: ... Around Cape Horn to Frisco Bay We're bound for Californio.

Now, where did it go? I can't say that I don't know how to use my mind

Old Europe, come home out the door without a hat you'll catch your death of

I would say the teachings attributed to Gautama in the first four Nikayas are an incomplete system toward the ending of suffering, when suffering arises. A complete system would be full of contradictions, as many of the later teachings are.

More like:

I would agree with that. The trick is, there's also a correlation between relaxation and stretch in the ligaments, more or less throughout the body but particularly in the lower body and along the spine. For a long time, I assumed that the ligaments could initiate activity in agonist/antagonist muscle groups. Western science only admits of the ability of the ligaments to influence muscular activity-- Here’s a summary of a study that confirms that some of the activity of the lower body is “regulated” by the iliosacral ligaments: This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability. (Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049 https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/) (Appendix–“For a Friend”, Revisited) In my experience, the stretch of ligaments seems to be a part of reciprocal innervation in paired muscle groups. Here's John Upledger's description of his experience lying on salt water in an isolation tank:: At some point my body began to make fish-like movements, as though my pelvis and legs were the lower part of a fish moving its tail from side to side. This movement was nice and easy. The neurophysiologist in me related these movements to an expression of what we call ‘reciprocal innervation’. The principle here is that, when your trunk is bent to the side in one direction past a certain threshold, the muscles on the other side of the trunk contract. In doing so, the nerve impulses are diverted from the side to which you are bent, and those muscles relax. Your trunk now bends in the opposite direction until that side-bending threshold is passed. The nerve impulses are then diverted again to the opposite side, causing muscle contraction and side bending in that direction. (“Your Inner Physician and You: Craniosacral Therapy and Somatoemotional Release”, John E. Upledger, p. 165) Shunryu Suzuki's description of shikantaza: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Progressive relaxation would be another preparatory practice. That's an important thing to keep in mind, if depth of concentration is said to be correlated with relaxation. Not that it isn't, but you can't get there from here. I haven't heard of Reggie Ray. I would say, jhana is about an evenness of stretch, a progressive evening of stretch. Is there tension in the body?--I would say yes, but at the same time, there's progressive relaxation. True that in Gautama's mindfulness, relaxation came before the calming of mental factors. I take the mental factors to be the senses involved in the perception of the precariousness of posture--a lot of that is listening to the stretch of ligaments. I haven't found the discernment of pain particularly helpful, other than as a caution and an impetus. I don't tend to sit on in pain. Mostly I sit 25's, in a sloppy half-lotus, but if I find a clear presence of mind with one-pointedness I will sit on to 35 or 40. Not doing too many zazenkai's or sesshins, these days (translation: none). Just sitting at home, morning and night.

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, emphasis added) Not possible to embody the free placement of attention through the exercise of will, or volition. I would say the embodiment of the free placement of attention is grace in action, and grace apart from action is just a concept.

As you've no doubt heard me write a million times now: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. When necessity places attention, attention takes place as a point, a point that can shift and move. About a decade ago, I wrote: If you do any seated or even standing meditation in the morning, you may see why I’m referring to the practice as “waking up and falling asleep”. In waking up, I am looking to relinquish my activity, and allow the place of mind to generate activity out of the stretch I find myself in. I have a description of the translations of motion in the lotus, yet in the end I am convinced that everything I need to know I learn by being where I am, as I am. I just have to be open to it. (Post: “I tried your practice last night”- humbleone, from “The Dao Bums”)

Gautama's insight into the nature of suffering, which is generally taken to be his enlightenment, apparently followed his attainment of the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving. Here's Gautama's description of his experience of "the cessation of feeling and perceiving": …[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152) Took him six years and two prior teachers to attain that cessation. I don't expect to attain it. For such as me, Gautama did speak of the mindfulness that made up his way of living as "something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides." That mindfulness appears to have been a particular pattern of thought initial and sustained, coupled with the experience of "one-pointedness". Part of that thought initial and sustained was "contemplating cessation I shall breath in; contemplating cessation I shall breathe out"--I would contend that the actual cessation of "doing something" with regard to the body in inhalation and exhalation, "doing something" by habit or volition, was at least an occasional part of his way of living. Shunryu Suzuki described the cessation of "doing something" with regard to the body as "just sitting". I would have to guess that "just sitting" was a regular part of Shunryu Suzuki's practice on the cushion, and that he could invoke the same kind of experience through his mindfulness in daily living.

“So I, … being liable to birth because of self, having known the peril in what is liable to birth, seeking the unborn, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana–won the unborn, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana; being liable to ageing because of self, having known the peril in what is liable to ageing, seeking the unageing, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana–won the unageing, the uttermost security from the bonds; being liable to decay… won the undecaying; …liable to dying… won the undying; … liable to sorrow… won the unsorrowing… ; liable to stain because of self, having known the peril in what is liable to stain, seeking the stainless, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana–won the stainless, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana. Knowledge and Vision arose in me: unshakable is freedom for me, this is the last birth, there is not now again-becoming.” (MN I 167, Vol I p 211) Whatever … is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, [a person], thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling … perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future or present… [that person], thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. [For one] knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body. (MN III 18-19, Vol III p 68) As (one) dwells in body contemplating body, ardent… that desire to do, that is in body, is abandoned. By the abandoning of desire to do, the Deathless is realized. So with feelings… mind… mental states… that desire to do, that is in mind-states, is abandoned. By the abandoning of the desire to do, the Deathless is realized. (SN V 182, Pali Text Society V p 159) These are the secret words which the Living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote. And He said: Whoever finds the explanation of these words will not taste death. (The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p. 3 log. 1, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

Sorry for the premature entry, there! I'm a fan of Gautama's delineation of the cessation of "determinate thought" in speech, deed, and mind through the induction of successive states of concentration, and of his description of the fourth of the initial concentrations as the cessation of ("determinate thought" in the activity of the body in) inhalation and exhalation. Although he never said as much, the fact that he described the "further" states after he described the four initial states does imply that the cessation of the activity (the action by habit or volition) of the body precedes the cessation of the activity of mind. I left out your description of the union of Shakti/Siva in the central channel, as a prerequisite to the completion you describe in the paragraph above. For me, speaking of a union in the central channel implies the same kind of concern with the body as a prerequisite to mental or spiritual "completion" that Gautama had.

I like Gombrich too, but I agree with you that sometimes he believes he understands the teaching and I'm thinking he's gone off track. I do, however, believe Warder when he says that there's a reason the teachings in the fifth collection were placed there, historically. As I said, I'm happiest with the teachings that do not stress an "actual infinity", and the reason for that is that "actual infinities" give rise to contradictions, and I don't believe they are necessary to describe the critical facts about human nature that Gautama taught. Just for clarification, something I wrote before on the topic, apologies if you've already read it: Here’s a paragraph or two from Dispute over Infinity Divides Mathematics: Infinity has ruffled feathers in mathematics almost since the field’s beginning. The controversy arises not from the notion of potential infinity–the number line’s promise of continuing forever–but from the concept of infinity as an actual, complete, manipulable object. Assuming actual infinity leads to unsettling consequences. Cantor proved, for instance, that the infinite set of even numbers {2,4,6,…} could be put in a “one-to-one correspondence” with all counting numbers {1,2,3,…}, indicating that there are just as many evens as there are odds-and-evens. The mathematician Poincare sums it up nicely for me (from Wikipedia, actual infinity): There is no actual infinity, that the Cantorians have forgotten and have been trapped by contradictions. (H. Poincare [Les mathematiques et la logique III, Rev. metaphys. morale (1906) p. 316]) I would say that the assumption of the existence of a completed infinite, as in “True Nature”, or “Dao”, or “God”, will result in contradictions, and such an assumption isn’t really required to benefit from the positive and substantive particulars in most of the wisdom teachings of the world.