forestofclarity

As you may see, we are considering establishing a private neidan subforum. Unlike most of the TDB, the contents on this forum would only be viewable by TDB members with 20 posts, would be limited to neidan discussion (based on well-recognized texts, established schools and lineages). In other words, it would be a semi-private place for neidan based discussion. The forum title would be visible to AI and general non-members, but posts and comments would not. Before proceeding down this path, I wanted to open up to community thoughts and feedback. Let us know your thoughts/concerns/issues.

The current rule would at least require at least a demonstrable source--- i.e. a reference to either a particular school or text (understanding that schools and text may not always agree). If there is enough demand, I imagine we could create some section with those limitations. I don't think we have the software for that, and even if we did, I don't think it would matter. It is fairly easy to take a screenshot and pull text. Pancakes, arrested, hooker.

Why not start a new thread?

I think a name, per DDJ 1, generally refers to something specific coalescing into existence. Nothing is truly fixed, but for a time it may be specific enough to warrant a name. Morality is an orientation or direction. If one's specific actions are aligned with the Dao, then this would be a more righteous action than specific actions that merely scatter energy into creation.

Resources related to Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Feel free to recommend your own resources to be added. The resources here are made by members in their individual capacity and is not an endorsement by TheDaoBums. ForestofClarity: Dzogchen and Mahamudra is best learned in person from a teacher of a lineage. Here are some lineaged teachers I have found valuable. Feel free to share others. Mingyur Rinpoche holds lineages in both Mahamudra and Dzogchen, generally teaching Mahamudra first. He makes everything simple and easy. https://vajrayana.tergar.org Tsoknyi Rinpoche is a very precise, down to earth teacher. Pointing out must be taken live. Familiar with Mahamudra, but mostly teaches Dzogchen. https://tsoknyirinpoche.org Lama Lena is traditionally trained, but very modern. Very popular. Mostly Dzogchen. https://lamalenateachings.com/start-here/ James Low teaches from a more modern, psychological angle and is based in Europe. Dzogchen. https://simplybeing.co.uk I haven't met Tenzin Wangyal, but he has a good reputation. Bon presentation: https://ligmincha.org/tenzin-wangyal-rinpoche/ Books (if you must): http://www.rangjung.com Dzogchen: it is usually best not the read about Dzogchen, but very commonly recommended: Crystal and the Way of Light Mahamudra: Anything by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche Clarifying the Natural State: a classic practical guide to Mahamudra Crystal Clear: commentary by KTR Anything by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness Anything by the Khenpo Rinpoches: https://www.padmasambhava.org/category/books-by-the-khenpo-rinpoches idiot_stimpy/soda chanh: Lama Dawai Gocha, a Nyingma Dzogchen Yogi from New Mexico USA.Host free online Dzogchen sessions twice daily. Link to online sessions - https://www.meditationonline.org/https://www.youtube.com/@JoinMeditationOnline https://mo-sangha.github.io/book/book.pdf

It's a good way to gauge where people are coming from. Also, I'm curious about your opinion because I have feeling you may have some good information. That's true, but I would think this applies broadly. Neidan practitioners have sort of done it themselves with the secrets and false information. And to some extent, I suppose sorting things out is a part of the process. But I think the better way to combat misinformation is to provide better public information. Whatever one thinks of ChiDragon's posts, they have at least stimulated some discussion.

Many people come on here, claim that all the public schools/teachings are wrong, and imply that they have access to the true teaching. This isn't a Daoist thing, but seems to be a part of all spiritual paths in one way or another. Of course, many of these claims are contradictory, so how does one discern the true and the false? For me, part of my personal criteria is 1) are the teachings consistent with the literature of the accepted traditions; 2) do the teachings lead to the results? Of course, there are additional criteria, but these are the ones I'm focusing on here. So with this in mind, I'd ask: do you have reason to believe he didn't have access to the oral tradition as he claimed? Or that his methods don't work as his students claimed? Or are they inconsistent with the classical literature? I suppose a similar set of questions can be asked about the implications around Hai Yang. What do you think he gets wrong and why is it wrong?

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Xing and Ming appear to be open terms with a broad spectrum of meanings with different nuances depending on the context. People seem to want to cling onto a single definition rather than seeking the underlying principle. Which is fine is people want to argue on the internet, I guess, but I don't see how it will forward practice. It seems to me that the spiritual arts of China are in fact arts as opposed to engineering manuals. But that's just my opinion. Here is an article with actual references to classical material talking about this. Anyone familiar with Chan or other literature may see the pattern rippling with different terms. https://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

I think the biggest problem is no one agrees on what is authoritative. Some think generative AI, some use internal school documents, and very few refer to anything common or verifiable. People say neidan, but they don't say which school, or commentary, or cite a source.

Thoughts? Most teachers I've dealt with start out with Wuji.

Welcome!

Great article, I appreciate it. I also like the larger, unsaid tension between how many of us perceive things (as discrete, enduring, often atomic units) and how things actually are (non-static, dynamic). Buddhism is an interesting bridge between what one may call the ancient Chinese and ancient Greek ways of looking at things since it basically picks apart the atomic model to reveal underlying emptiness. I think this article explains why I find it so weird that we often argue about things like whether the Dao De Jing is about government, or cultivation, or something else. Or that this is neidan but not that, or this school is right and this one is not. Such rigid fixation!

Interesting position given Liu Yiming's commentary on Zhang Boduan's poem 6 of Awakening to Reality as discussed in this thread! Do you have a classic source that backs this up, or is this a part of the oral tradition of your school?

I don't think there is necessarily a "school" of neidan. It seems to have numerous commentators, some of whom merged into religious tradition and some who did not. Given that it tends to be secretive, I would imagine there are many different interpretations, as noted by Li Dachun. It seems to me that modern neidan is a fusion of various Daoist elements (yangshen, dao yin, shamanic elements) for cultivating ming and Chan for xing. Some have said: https://www.cfolu.com/xiuxueyd/251zhenqiyunxingfa.html

Should be good, let me know if there are issues.

I've had an on-again, off-again (mostly off-again) interest in Astral Projection. None of the techniques have ever worked for me. Interestingly, this one is not entirely dissimilar from certain instructions related to dark retreat. Anyone try this or something similar? Video: Transcript (polished by ChatGPT): Let’s be honest: most of what we see online about astral projection is fluff. Rope techniques, climbing ladders, “five easy steps guaranteed to get you out in 10 minutes”—it’s all nonsense. A lot of these people have never actually done it. They’re just repeating something they’ve read in a forum because it gets clicks. But here’s the truth: astral projection isn’t instant. It isn’t easy. It isn’t necessarily difficult either, but you can’t fake your way into it. Yet it is real. And in this video, I’ll show you how it actually works based on my own personal experience. This is a detailed explanation, but every part of it is important. If you’re serious about learning this, I urge you to stay with me until the end. So let’s get into it. The Big Reframe The first thing to understand is this: astral projection isn’t weird or unnatural. You already do it every single night. When you fall asleep, your body shuts down, but your awareness continues. That’s what dreaming is—an unconscious form of astral projection, the human brain interpreting experiences of your true self. The difference here is awareness. Astral projection is simply staying awake while the body falls asleep. Instead of being swept away into dream imagery, you remain the observer—the witness. You don’t force it. You don’t make it happen. You let the natural process unfold while keeping that flame of awareness alive. The truth is, your conscious awareness never actually sleeps. The body sleeps, the mind quiets down, emotions fade—but the silent witness, the eternal eye, is always awake. If you learn to rest there, you can follow the shift directly as it happens. That’s astral projection. It’s not something new. It’s something you already do—only now you’re paying attention. Foundation Before you can astral project, you need a foundation—and that foundation is meditation. If you can’t sit still, calm your thoughts, and relax deeply, you’ll never reach the state you need. Astral projection isn’t a quick hack; it’s a skill, like building strength or learning an instrument. It takes practice, patience, and consistency. Step one is learning how to relax so deeply that the body feels heavy, almost unreal. Step two is learning to watch your thoughts without getting pulled into them. This is why meditation is essential. It teaches you how to sit in the observer state—the exact state you’ll carry into projection. Skip it and you’ll struggle. Do the groundwork and you’ll have a real foundation. I cannot stress this enough. The Method: Entering the Observer State Now, here’s the real method. Lie on your back with your arms and legs comfortably spread apart, palms facing upward. Yes, you can do this in any position, but ritual sets intention, and your subconscious recognizes, Ah, we’re doing this now. Close your eyes. Shift your awareness into the mind’s eye, as if you’re looking from behind your thoughts and feelings. This is sometimes called pineal gazing. Now just watch. Colors, lights, and patterns will flicker behind your eyelids. Don’t judge them. Don’t control them. Just observe. It should feel as though you’re trying to look through your eyelids. Over time, those flickers grow into vivid scenes. It’s like watching static on a TV slowly form into a movie—and then realizing you can step inside the screen. The flat blackness behind your eyelids begins shifting into a three-dimensional space, like being in a pitch-black room where you can’t quite see but can sense the volume of the space. Then come the sensations: vibrations, buzzing, floating, rocking, or sinking. These aren’t obstacles; they’re signs your body is falling asleep while your awareness remains awake. Stay calm. Let them happen. Don’t judge. It can feel frightening to beginners, but no matter how intense it becomes, you are in no danger. These are the same natural processes your body goes through every night—only now you’re conscious of them. Eventually, you’ll feel a shift—a snap, a pop, or just a sudden change. That’s the moment you’re out. You don’t “float” out—you’re simply out. You switch states between human and eternal witness in an instant. You feel more awake and alive than you ever have before. It is not the dreamy, vague feeling people expect. If it is, you’ve entered a lucid dream instead. Lucid Dreams: The Gateway Here’s something almost nobody tells you: before you get full astral projection, you’ll often hit lucid dreams first. Many people even mistake lucid dreaming for astral projection. A lucid dream is like a halfway house—half awake, half asleep. But from there, you can transition directly into projection. This happened to me in my early journeys. I realized mid-dream, Wait—this isn’t projection. This is a lucid dream. And instantly—bam—I was back in my bedroom, outside my body. There was no break in consciousness. One moment I was dreaming, the next I was fully out. And that’s when I understood something visceral: the witness never sleeps. There is no separation between waking, dreaming, or projecting. Only the body sleeps. Consciousness is always creating, always experiencing. When you see this directly, it can be terrifying at first. You realize you are not the body, not the ego—just awareness itself. It shatters the belief that waking life is real and dreams are illusory. That can be frightening, but it’s a necessary truth on any spiritual path. What NOT to Do This is where most people go wrong. They search for techniques—climbing a rope, rolling out, jumping off a swing, and so on. These tricks keep you stuck in imagination. You’re so busy pretending to climb a rope that you miss the actual process unfolding naturally. Astral projection isn’t about muscling your way out. It’s about letting go—letting the body sleep while you remain the witness. Don’t waste time on gimmicks. Keep it simple: relax and allow. Set, Setting, and Spiritual Preparation There’s another part of astral projection that doesn’t get talked about enough: your state of being. Astral projection isn’t just a mechanical trick. It’s like psychedelics—what you bring to the experience shapes what you find there. Your mindset, lifestyle, and habits all manifest when you’re out of body. If you’re anxious, depressed, addicted, or neglecting yourself, you’ll bring those energies into the astral, and they’ll take form. That’s why some people encounter demons, reptilians, archons, or other malevolent beings. They think the astral is dangerous when it’s really reflecting what they carry inside. You are the creator of your own reality. In the astral, that truth becomes immediate and unavoidable. So it’s vitally important to clean up your life as best you can. Cultivate a spiritual practice. Take care of your body and mind. Recognize your own power, because in the astral, that power is immediate. You can create anything. The difference between a nightmare, a confusing dream, or a conscious, godlike exploration of reality comes down to what you bring with you. Set and setting matter—and your inner world is everything. Words of Encouragement Astral projection isn’t easy or instant, but it’s real. The more you practice, the stronger the observer becomes. Every time you lie down and meditate, you sharpen the awareness that makes projection possible. And when it finally happens, you’ll know. It won’t feel like imagination. It will feel like stepping out of one room and into another—more real than your human life has ever felt. That’s when the real exploration begins. If you try this method, share your experiences. The only proof that matters is your own direct experience. Thank you for watching. Until next time.

That's cool because... you know... everything is perfect!

Here is ho Mingyur Rinpoche puts it: What is perfect is the essence of every sentient being. The jiva is the relative deluded individual. The summation is usually "Brahma satyam, jagan mithya, jivo brahmaiva naparah." Brahman is real, the world is illusory, the essence of the jiva is the essence of Brahman. A more radical Vedantin along the lines of Gaudapada might say there is no issue because suffering is illusory, like a dream. The true self is safe and sound as always, so the solution is not to improve the dream, but to wake up the dreamer.

Welcome!

Generally goes from life to life is the subtle mind part of the mind (i.e. the storehouse consciousness or alaya vijnana or bhavanga citta or other terms depending on the school), but it is not a permanent, unitary, independent self. Rather, it is an afflicted consciousness. As the Dalai Lama XIV puts it: A: ...If one understands the term "soul" as a continuum of individuality from moment to moment, from lifetime to lifetime, then one can say that Buddhism also accepts a concept of soul; there is a kind of continuum of consciousness. From that point of view, the debate on whether or not there is a soul becomes strictly semantic. However, in the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness, or "no soul" theory, the understanding is that there is no eternal, unchanging, abiding, permanent self called "soul." That is what is being denied in Buddhism. from Healing Anger: The Power of Patience from a Buddhist Perspective by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

I think the level analogy may be misleading, because it implies there is something to gain. I like the melting analogy (this is in classic Zen literature, such as Hakuin and Chinul) better because it captures the process a bit more precisely in my mind. A few points: 1. It is not either/or, it is a spectrum. Melting ice takes time, but there are certainly degrees. 2. It is about relaxing and letting go rather than picking something up. We have everything we already need, there is not something new to add. Rather, it is about opening and expanding more than anything. 3. The process is natural refines the more you do it. At first, it may be very gross, very conceptual, very effortful. These tend to reduce naturally on their own with practice. Ice is ice. A rough block sitting outside and a finely sculpted castle look very different, and function very differently, but their nature is the same.

I think the level analogy may be misleading, because it implies there is something to gain. I like the melting analogy (this is in classic Zen literature, such as Hakuin and Chinul) better because it captures the process a bit more precisely in my mind. A few points: 1. It is not either/or, it is a spectrum. Melting ice takes time, but there are certainly degrees. 2. It is about relaxing and letting go rather than picking something up. We have everything we already need, there is not something new to add. Rather, it is about opening and expanding more than anything. 3. The process is natural refines the more you do it. At first, it may be very gross, very conceptual, very effortful. These tend to reduce naturally on their own with practice. Ice is ice. A rough block sitting outside and a finely sculpted castle look very different, and function very differently, but their nature is the same.

Mod Note: ***Thread locked for review*** Threatening post removed. Topic unlocked. Posts split into new thread:

Welcome!