forestofclarity

Your school sounds really awesome! This is not unlike Tantra. In Tantra, traditionally one starts with the highest methods, but there is a whole structure of other methods for different types of people depending on their particular circumstances and capacities. In other words, methods aimed at providing health and wealth are not there necessarily for hedonistic pleasure, but to bring one along to the ultimate way. It is difficult to practice if you're sick, hungry, or worried. And some of these also lead one to increase certain inner qualities by providing services to others. And to get one's health and magical practices to work, arguably one needs to begin to align with the ultimate in some way.

I might suggest that this is a bit more foundational. Maybe it is dangerous of me to say without textual support, but I'd say that without the Dao, or whatever, there'd be no structure, movement, or awareness. I'm cool if whatever concepts bubbling through my mind are shown to be wrong. From a certain point of view, they are all limited and don't really hold up. I'm curious though on what you mean though about "based on other goals interwoven in the tradition?" What would be an example?

It sounds like you're really resonating with the Spring Forest Qigong! If you're doing a lot of love, feeling more of the MDT would make sense. I don't think most people feel their LDT unless they do some sort of work like internal martial arts, Zen, qigong, neigong, etc. Some people naturally feel centered there also. There are a lot of experiences that arise in spiritual practice. My personal view is to enjoy them while they arise, but to let them go. Some people spend their whole lives trying to recreate a spiritual high. But it also shows what is possible, which is valuable as well. I wasn't aware of their focus on unconditional love/compassion, that's a very interesting approach.

Other people read these also!

Welcome!

Here's an interesting article below with a variety of interpretations depending on how you break it up. There are moral, philosophical, divinatory, etc. meanings. In the Taoist I Ching (a commentary by Liu Yiming, trans Cleary)), it is said to be a complete cycle of creation, like the four seasons or the four parts of internal cultivation. https://www.arcjournals.org/pdfs/ijhsse/v9-i11/1.pdf

It is sort of a weird thing. I think for me, spirituality may be a thing that tends to lead to loneliness, and also overcomes it. But this may be specific to my path and my body-mind. It seems there are fewer people interested in spiritual practice, at least the kind here you practice and "see it for yourself." In my experience, practice tends to be alienating since you stop caring as much about things people are into (i.e. the world), and you care more about things people aren't into (spiritual practice). Also, you begin to operate differently than other people. It can be harder to relate, especially as the years pass by. But there is also a sense of opening and compassion that arises. I'm not sure if this is specific to certain paths. In this sense, there is more of a connection. When you talk to someone, you're not just holding your breath until you can make a point. You can let them be who they are. You may also feel more connected with other things, like the earth, the sky, animals, the lineage, etc. The whole world is alive in a way it wasn't before. For a long time, I kept looking for a live, in person sangha. One of my teachers told me there aren't any for my school the way there are for others, and that it is better to learn to practice intensively on one's own. It is harder, but it does tend to make it stronger and less dependent on externals.

If anyone wants to try out Robert Coons' substack for free, I'm trying it out and have a 5 free one month subscriptions. Let me know if you would like to check it out, PM me your email address. So far, it's interesting since he has studied both with a living teacher and learned classical Chinese so he can delve into the classics. He likes to put things in a larger cultural/historical context, which I tend to appreciate.

Welcome! Only members can view PPDs. Should be available now.

Welcome!

Welcome!

Hello EG. I figured you were still alive since you were posting on Reddit. Good luck in your endeavors and hopefully your practices continue to bear fruit (for the benefit of all beings)

That's true, but people are expected to have similar ingredients and capacities in order to follow a recipe. If beef bourguignon the proper dish for a mountain hermit or a single parent working two jobs? Maybe, if they're interested in fancy French cooking, maybe not if there about to starve. But that's one problem. The main goal of a the teachings, in my current opinion, is to awaken people's inner connection to the Dao. But the preservation of lineages may cut at cross-purposes to empowering individuals. This is why they often go dry and why a lot of people take to the hills. Interesting question as to whether there are even any neidan lineages. every lineage claims they have an unbroken oral tradition, but that usually relies on the oral tradition that supports the oral tradition. I think there is definitely some truth to that. But the more one cultivates the acquired mind/body with you wei methods, it may become more difficult to cultivate wu wei later on. Of course, some methods use you wei to open the door to wu wei-- I see standing like this. You adopt a structure so that you can relax. Some people go in the opposite direction: all methods, no principles. The fundamental question that will drive the entire practice is whether we need to acquire something or not. The DDJ is pretty clear--- we gain the greater through dropping the lesser. (DDJ 48). Huang Yuanji says: If it is permeates everywhere, it is right here and now. How does that inform one's approach?

Welcome... back?

I would add that I am not clear on how efficient a system can be. Damo has a lot of stuff in his system, probably in part so that it can have broad appeal since differing people start with differing capacities. I've been thinking about the Secret of the Golden Flower again lately, and it is essentially once practice with multiple steps that seems to capture the key points of neidan and Chan as reflected in classical teachings. Now people will say, yes, but you need the lineage keys to unlock the secret. Now I've seen some examples of people explaining the secret, and they essentially flip what appears to be the literal meaning on its head so it means something else entirely. So sometimes, lineage may mean "complexify," which is exactly in accordance with moving away from the Dao and deeper into creation. And when things are systematized, the more that is lost (DDJ 38).

Mod Note: Science/Scientist/Scientism discussion here:

Mod note: ants vs birds moved here:

A few takeaways from a partial listen of the video: - 2 hours a day is enough for three systems? I think 2 hours was bare minimum just for Damo, and not even doing all the stuff - no mention of developing morality, compassion, wisdom, spiritual qualities, etc. It's all about cool powers - no ethics required, like running - masters won't let him test them with proper equipment - "extraordinarily clear" evidence for extraterrestrials visiting us

This is what has never been explained to me. It is an unusual skill, but one that, as far as I know, requires no wisdom or compassion to develop. In fact, every tradition I'm familiar with has warned about getting lost in power-based side paths. Many spiritual seekers have a story about confounding power and wisdom. But as branding, it is brilliant. Who doesn't want unusual abilities without having to overcome the ego habits of mind?

Sorry for your loss, steve.

Thread split for well-wishing:

You don't need to believe in anything. It is something that you experience first hand or you don't. The vast majority of people never experience it, but a significant number who engage in certain practices or even go on meditation retreats do. We can relate those experiences to specific concepts and world views, but it is unnecessary. But it certainly not a belief any more than it is a belief that fire feels hot.

Resources related to Mahayana and Zen Buddhism. Feel free to recommend your own resources to be added. The resources here are made by members in their individual capacity and is not an endorsement by TheDaoBums. bradley: The Diamond Sutra was the first thing Buddhist I ever read (maybe six or seven years ago), and it instantly changed my perspective on everything. Also, I think I have read that Hui neng was, and continues to be, somewhat controversial... Link I also learned a lot reading through the prajñā­pāramitā sutras. Here is a translation of the 10,000 line one that I liked: https://84000.co/translation/toh11 Finally, one sutra that I continually go back to, and think about a lot, is a short Heap of Jewels sutra: https://84000.co/translation/toh118 The following interchange has stuck in my mind:

We have a prior thread on Zifagong, with references to both Flying Phoenix and Kunlun. I'm not an expert, but ZFG type practices seems to "toss open the system," so to speak, which might toss in a monkey wrench while you're establishing a healthy body-mind via Flying Phoenix. ZFG can also arise spontaneously, without any special type practices.

I've been listening to Rob Coons on the MCO. I like his approach since it seems well grounded in texts. His issue seems to be with forcible intention, which is not what BW is going for and I think she explicitly mentions this. Her approach seems to be grounded in Dao Yin as opposed to Neidan. One interesting thing about her overall approach is her general emphasis on non-fixation and dissolution of the self, which would put her in a different camp than other popular camps. I suppose some people may wish to argue that Dao Yin is false or harmful, but if so, I wonder if would have survived so long and had so many adherents. It seems more that Dao Yin uses post-heaven methods for post-heaven gains. Of course, a lot of popular neidan also strikes me as post-heaven cultivation, despite assurances that it is not.