forestofclarity

Mod note: ants vs birds moved here:

A few takeaways from a partial listen of the video: - 2 hours a day is enough for three systems? I think 2 hours was bare minimum just for Damo, and not even doing all the stuff - no mention of developing morality, compassion, wisdom, spiritual qualities, etc. It's all about cool powers - no ethics required, like running - masters won't let him test them with proper equipment - "extraordinarily clear" evidence for extraterrestrials visiting us

This is what has never been explained to me. It is an unusual skill, but one that, as far as I know, requires no wisdom or compassion to develop. In fact, every tradition I'm familiar with has warned about getting lost in power-based side paths. Many spiritual seekers have a story about confounding power and wisdom. But as branding, it is brilliant. Who doesn't want unusual abilities without having to overcome the ego habits of mind?

Sorry for your loss, steve.

Thread split for well-wishing:

You don't need to believe in anything. It is something that you experience first hand or you don't. The vast majority of people never experience it, but a significant number who engage in certain practices or even go on meditation retreats do. We can relate those experiences to specific concepts and world views, but it is unnecessary. But it certainly not a belief any more than it is a belief that fire feels hot.

Resources related to Mahayana and Zen Buddhism. Feel free to recommend your own resources to be added. The resources here are made by members in their individual capacity and is not an endorsement by TheDaoBums. bradley: The Diamond Sutra was the first thing Buddhist I ever read (maybe six or seven years ago), and it instantly changed my perspective on everything. Also, I think I have read that Hui neng was, and continues to be, somewhat controversial... Link I also learned a lot reading through the prajñā­pāramitā sutras. Here is a translation of the 10,000 line one that I liked: https://84000.co/translation/toh11 Finally, one sutra that I continually go back to, and think about a lot, is a short Heap of Jewels sutra: https://84000.co/translation/toh118 The following interchange has stuck in my mind:

We have a prior thread on Zifagong, with references to both Flying Phoenix and Kunlun. I'm not an expert, but ZFG type practices seems to "toss open the system," so to speak, which might toss in a monkey wrench while you're establishing a healthy body-mind via Flying Phoenix. ZFG can also arise spontaneously, without any special type practices.

I've been listening to Rob Coons on the MCO. I like his approach since it seems well grounded in texts. His issue seems to be with forcible intention, which is not what BW is going for and I think she explicitly mentions this. Her approach seems to be grounded in Dao Yin as opposed to Neidan. One interesting thing about her overall approach is her general emphasis on non-fixation and dissolution of the self, which would put her in a different camp than other popular camps. I suppose some people may wish to argue that Dao Yin is false or harmful, but if so, I wonder if would have survived so long and had so many adherents. It seems more that Dao Yin uses post-heaven methods for post-heaven gains. Of course, a lot of popular neidan also strikes me as post-heaven cultivation, despite assurances that it is not.

My initial impression is that she seems to be coming from a Western Magical Tradition POV (which is confirmed by her background), but I found this to be an interesting presentation. Curious about other's thoughts if anyone has familiarity.

This is one of the reasons some schools encourage learning from multiple teachers once one has a solid grounding and is familiar with the key points. I think the general call for systematic purity is ironic given that Daoism and Tantric Buddhism are so obviously syncretic systems. Of course, one does not want to be a spiritual dilettante either and I assume that, given limited time and resources, most people will settle into their home system. But even then, one can continue to collect endless teachings. And of course, different means may conflict with one another creating. I've been listening to some videos about the wordless book of heaven--- which is essentially the teachings expressed from heaven to any given person. It is wordless because it cannot be fully captured--- the Dao that can be Dao'ed is not the true Dao and all.

Sure, like this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Huai-Chin Definitely not serious! Or this person: LIN ZHAOEN Or this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_the_Golden_Flower

I can give you some limited impressions from what I've seen through this site. When Kunlun was introduced here, the emphasis was on flashy experiences which attracted a lot of attention. There was even a movie trailer where the person was supposedly zapping women and making them scream. A lot of people initially found value in the practice, but there were a lot of weird things going on with the personalities involves and most if not all of the Bums moved on. Kunlun seems to have come from Sifu Jenny Lamb, who as far as I know gave up teaching and practices primarily Pure Land Buddhism and may have been taken without acknowledgment. The Kunlun System seems to be cobbled together rather than a tradition that has been passed down. S-M caught some people's attention. As far as I can tell, I think some Bums got heavily involved and it became their home practice. This practice seemed to be more centered and grounded, and the people practicing it seemed that way as well. Ya Mu stated AFAIK that he received his teaching in a lineaged way and I think he is or was a full time healer. There is a video on his site and his movements don't seem grounded nor his body connected, so I didn't really look any further because those are things I look for in a physical qigong type practice. There was some discussion on pros/cons some time back: Having said that, I have not practiced EITHER system and have no personal experience at all. Also, this all happened over a decade ago and people will likely have changed from that point.

If I had to guess, if you asked either Damo or Nathan Brine about it, they would advise choosing one or the other. But the actual answer would be to ask the teacher IMO.

Also, our distorted mental habits that keep pulling us away into other things, and often interferes in various ways. Tseng Lao-weng quote is interesting because this seems like a different approach than the narrower views often bandied about.

So I listened to Robert Coons wax on this, and he states that there are 4 major types of MCOs: 1. Dao Yin, usually involving a lot of intention, breathing, visualization. 2. Qigong, with less intention. 3. Neidan, with no intention. 4. Martial arts, which ends up opening it with postures/movement.

I thought you were a Chunyi Lin person, Kati? Here is some discussion with the Chunyi Lin method:

Well, I think from both a Vedic/Tantric point of view and a Daoist point of view, the subtle body is composed of substances. For instance, you have tanmatras which are subtle elements that are the underlying makeup of physical elements. You also have citta for mind stuff, and prana for a less subtle form of energy. I think Daoists have a similar POV based on past conversations here. But then I thought better of it.

I wonder if bones count as a dan tian for people who do bone condensing practices.

People either have experienced the subtle body or they haven't. If you have first hand experience of it, it is undeniable. If you haven't, it sounds inconceivable because it conflicts with the teachings of modern scientific materialism (which is actually based on incomplete Newtonian physics and is on its way out). It is sort of like trying to explain color to someone who has never seen any.

Mod note: Split off Discussion about whether MCO is Real

This is what caught my attention also. Many Daoist qigong/martial artists I've learned from have taught to focus on keeping within the body periphery, which can be an issue if the boundary is open. I don't know if this is just an initial position that is later sublated or not. Which is another issue I see in a lot of Daoist-flavored teaching. It appears to me in many cases the "you" increases and the personality becomes quite strong leading to conflict and aggression (and even physical fights that students always seem "forced" into). At least for male teachers with martial arts backgrounds, which is probably 90% of my exposure. Just speculating, but I think because it is often a Ming to Xing path, there are often issues related around money, ego, and power. This seems to be less so with Xing to Ming or dual cultivation schools, but I don't have enough data points there. Of course, Buddhist schools often have issues around power and sex, so it is certainly not a sure thing.

This is interesting, and not the first time I've heard this either: Rob Coons wrote: Which would back up Sahaja's point.

Welcome!

There are a lot of views, that's for sure. I've learned a number of MCO methods from different schools. Some say their method/teachings/results is the one true method, some don't. I've never found such views convincing personally, but that's just my opinion. I ran into the same thing with Christian churches and Buddhist schools--- it just seems like propaganda to me. Benebell has cited her sources about halfway through here, some of which are inaccessible to me because they are in Chinese. One of her sources, Huang Yuanji uses the terms differently for different levels IIRC. I find her version interesting because, like the Ge Guolong book translated by Mathias Daly (also a Huang Yuanji teaching), she picks up on certain things that many Daoists have not that correlate to Buddhist Tantra. https://benebellwen.com/2025/09/07/a-taoist-secret-to-cultivating-personal-power/