steve

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti

I think you could feel the truth in his eyes and in his smile.

And she may have had a pair of her own if Michelangelo sculpted her...

After reading your question, I realized that I am completely incapable of providing an answer. I thought about how I might respond for a bit and then I decided to take a hot bath because my muscles are sore from practicing this morning. After listening to music for a bit (a beautiful CD by Luisa Maita), I picked up a book sitting nearby. I opened it to where I had left off 2 weeks ago and here is what I read: "Later, when talking to his disciples, the Master was more forceful. "Concepts define," he said. "To define is to destroy. Concepts dissect Reality. And what you dissect you kill." "Are concepts then quite useless?" "No. Dissect a rose and you will have valuable information - and no knowledge whatsoever - of the rose. Become a scholar and you will have much information - but no knowledge whatsoever - of Reality."

Good points Otis. As children, we want to explore and experience everything. As we do, we develop these images of things (oh, that's a tree, I know tree, it can't hurt me, next...) that allows us to screen them out of our everyday consciousness to allow us to focus on more "important" things (real threats, obtaining food, baseball, pornography, whatever). So the admonition to return to the childlike state, refers to recapturing that childlike willingness to see things new. Look at everything equally and with awareness and intent. Because even though we think we know these things through the image we create (the most comical one being God or Tao) we really don't have a clue.

In truth, that would be closer to a miracle. So some of us want to levitate and some live forever. But you may be the most unrealistic of all!

I look at the attitudes Vortex was expressing more as a prescription intended to reduce suffering and to bring about a realization of the true nature of self. The attitudes are not a goal, not an end result, they are a practice. War and hunger matter a great deal to someone who practices these things. It tears their soul apart and they continue to practice. And some of them douse themselves with gasoline and light themselves on fire to protest the inequities in life but most, fortunately, continue to practice. It is not that the prescription is intended to obliterate emotion and creativity, just teach us how to experience these things fully and put them in perspective without becoming so attached to them that we suffer. Now I do think that a lot of practitioners erroneously confuse the method with the goal or outcome. But if they are patient, diligent, and dedicated, that passes. Eventually they see the method for what it is, just a tool. And I also think it is unhealthy and against the spirit of these methods to continually deny ourselves. The objective of life is not to be dispassionate or uncaring or numb or dull or an ascetic but to live fully. The true monk or sage is one who thoroughly enjoys life - they laugh and love but they also honor the practice for what it is. I get your point, ralis, about the potential for numbness, passivity, and lack of creativity. I think that is an individual choice. The most creative and humane activities can be approached in a rote and robotic manner. And the most mundane, including the practice of non-attachment, requires great creativity, passion, and sensitivity if we are to be truly successful. I think this is something that distinguishes those who succeed from those who quit. Not sure it makes complete sense or you will agree but I thought I'd share my thoughts.

As I continue to follow this program I've noticed a few things. The shaking occurs sooner and becomes more intense. It has spread, at times, to my entire body - arms, legs, hands, feet... My right hand and arm are particularly involved, whatever that means. The shaking also penetrates beyond the physical and into the energetic and emotional levels to varying degrees. The physical result is that I don't feel nearly as tight and uncomfortable in the low back, hips, and thighs as I had been feeling. I feel a bit more energized and motivated - more meditation, taiji, qigong,... Not much change that I can really identify psychologically or emotionally so far. I certainly feel enough benefit from the practice to continue. I haven't finished reading the book yet but I like it.

It is not going to improve in the short term, only get worse. I think it is the natural consequence of technological "progress." With our current psychological and spiritual level of maturity, I think it will need to get much worse before we make meaningful change. Perhaps we will wake up at a global level and perhaps not. If not, we are going to be a self limited event. Thank goodness the Democrats are now in power, huh? (And don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not a Republican, just disappointed... but not surprised).

It may sound trite and insincere but the simplest and quickest method to reach enlightenment is to do nothing. Quit now. You're already what you are. The only thing preventing you from seeing that is you. It's just a matter of perspective. That said, it is also a very difficult method (as are all the others) because the method really isn't the point. The method doesn't cause "enlightenment" - it doesn't cause any fundamental change. It just gives you a way to exhaust yourself so thoroughly that you give up, and when you have punished yourself enough, you wake up and understand and that's it. If you haven't already, please watch these wonderful video clips that Oolong Rabbit recently posted. Good luck on your path.

Beautiful posts Oolong - In the fourth clip he states, "no teacher is necessary." This is the same message of jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello and others I agree 100% and at the same time I question this - Everyone who has said that no teacher is necessary has had a teacher - usually multiple. So would they (we) have ever reached this realization without the teachers? The truth is that no teacher is necessary and yet we need something or someone to push us way, far out. As far as we can go and beyond that. As far as we need to go before we are at our wits end. We need to run into the brick wall or end up on our face in the gutter. Whether its chanting in a hut for 40 years or praying in a monastery or transforming jing to qi to shen to wu Then we realize that we are already there. As Alan Watts says, the answer is always right there in front of us (inside of us). But we need to punish ourselves enough before we allow our selves to see it. I'm not saying this is a conscious process but it does seem to be in play. So, as some have already said, Body of Light may need to go to the Himalayas, whether he watches these wonderful clips or not. Our minds are incredibly stubborn and will not yield before ready.

I think I would tend to agree with you on this.

Petals, in your palm Gray mist embraces Ranier Do you feel my thoughts?

I wonder... Is impartiality our natural state? Or is it something that requires intent. Is this state of effortless impartiality within our grasp or an ideal pointed to in scripture?

Tubular Bells also was very significant for me in the '70's. I have to check out more of Oldfield's stuff because I never did. Around the same time I was also affected by Chris Squire's "Fish Out of Water" and Jon Anderson's "Olias of Sunhillow" and Yes, I was a Yes fan.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I manifest consciousness, as do all other people (more or less...) and animals. For some reason most of us can't fathom the possibility that there may be some manifestation of consciousness in other entities such as the sun, moon, earth, plants, a mountain, a river, etc... I'm not saying there is but why not? Just so alien that you and I can't really relate. These very same people often have no problem postulating some imaginary immortals, gods, space aliens, spirits, ghosts, and so on. At the same time, I'm quick to point out that any "intention" we project to "inanimate" objects (as we assume them to be) may well be just that - our own projections. I don't know, but I'm open to possibilities. Some of this comes from intimate conversations with a close friend and healer who is a shaman. And I'll freely acknowledge that despite using lots of words, I don't always do a very good job of communicating!

Very sad. Nothing worthwhile to say but my heart goes out to the families of the victims.

The pig has always freaked me out a little, reminds me of a scene from The Shining... I really like your avatar. I loved the Shrike and just about everything Dan Simmons has written! Wonderful story! I have always really liked your avatar. When I first joined Tao Bums I used the nickname xuesheng=student. I try to cultivate a beginner's mind. After a while the nature of this forum and what I hoped to get out of it suggested to me to drop the nickname so now I just use my name. My most recent previous avatar was a photo of me taken by my brother while we were hanging out in Haarlem, Netherlands. My current avatar is a cubist drawing made by my daughter for a class in abject art and female issues. Great thread! I've always been curious about name and avatars but never asked. This would be a good sticky!

I really like that. It's quite profound in its implications and nuance.

I need to think about this for a while - very good stuff. Thanks

Nicely said.

Just to clarify, I don't mean necessarily to imply the presence of any "higher consciousness." We each manifest consciousness. Every living thing manifests consciousness (we just don't understand it because we can't think their thoughts or feel their feelings). We feel utterly alien to each other for this reason so imagine how alien the consciousness of a tree or river(?) is. So I don't mean to imply there is a particular greater consciousness that has a specific plan or intent (ala New or Old Testament or Q'ran). I don't know what is going on but I do know that "I" and all the rest of you "I"s out there manifest consciousness. And I think all components of the universe do. So there is great consciousness acting in our world. And most of it is completely un-knowable to us. And "I don't know" the extent of it all butI think it's folly to deny that consciousness and intent is at play in all things.

I'll start with the second question first - I think that our inner nature does change, life is change. I don't think that "I" can force a change. But I do think that as we gain life experience and become increasingly aware of our behavior and our relationships with others, that we can certainly identify things which are more important to us and emphasize those values in our choices. And what is important to us changes with different phases in our lives. So this is an ongoing, dynamic process. So for example, I may be the kind of father who feels it is important to have the last word and guide or even control the behavior of one of my children. Perhaps this was the only role model I ever knew. And this leads to conflict. Maybe the child is rebellious or defiant. And the conflict escalates to the point of violence (not necessarily physical, but emotional, psychological, verbal). And one day I have an insight into the fact that the child is distant and bitter and won't confide in me. And I see how it is connected to my behavior and stubborn attachment to be in control. Then I can make a choice - be more tolerant, accept certain behavior that might have previously been unacceptable. Allow the child to make certain choices and experience the consequences, good or bad. And still be there to pick them up and hug them when they are hurt. I make a choice to be loving and supportive rather than authoritarian. And this is because I see that the future of our relationship depends on developing confidence and trust rather than discipline. So both of our lives are enriched but I'm still a bit uneasy to watch the child make occasional "wrong" choices or "mistakes" that I may have helped them to avoid. We are rarely completely undivided. The irony and beauty is that the child will soon become much more open to my guidance because that is THEIR choice. So I started with focusing on the importance of discipline and the responsibility of guiding the child to the right decisions. And I recognized that a close relationship depending on tempering that with kindness, support, and encouragement. By identifying the values that were more important to me (having a loving and supportive relationship with my child) and changing my behavior accordingly, I was able to enrich both of our lives. I think flexibility is important also. So I can choose to be a vegetarian because I am honoring the value of life and not harming animals, fish, and foul. And there comes a time when I really crave meat and no substitute is adequate. So I eat the meat. I make a choice. I'm going against that value but for a good reason - my body is telling me that I need the meat. And then I can resume honoring my choice to being vegetarian when I'm ready. I don't think this has to be all or none. It just has to be a conscious process. We need to be aware.