steve

Sorry to bum you out! You're way back on memory lane! Here's one of my all time favorites from Inti Illimani - it's also a little sad but in more of a wabi sabi sort of way. The lyrics go something like: Take pity on my complaining Take pity on my complaining If you have ever loved me And show me how to be happy Because unhappy, was I born Here's another beautiful song performed by Inti Illimani The lyrics are in Quechua, it's a traditional song from a town in Chile called Cariquima

Me too...

Are you doing anything other than what you describe with your awareness/intent?

I'd very much like to hear about your sky gazing practice. I may be heading out to Sedona soon for a short time...

Amen - though the proper frame of mind is needed to reap the benefits. That can be hard to come by. Perhaps that's something you gained from some of your teachers? Whether by positive or negative example...

Very nice post Seth. I have a few questions/remarks. "4. The 'supreme' state or 'God' state, has an [seemingly] Infinite organising 'Intelligence' but is still part and parcel of all other states." What is the organizing intelligence? It sounds very close to me to the concept of Atman. I believe what you're referring to is specifically what Buddha was decrying. Not because he intended to state emphatically that it was not reality, but that it was a concept that one could cling to. I'm not disagreeing with you in any way (your words are pretty close to my personal experience), just teasing out detail. "8. We are on the edge of a 'Golden Age' of Philosophy. For the first time ever, all systems of thought are available to us, as well as neurobiology, sociology, science, psychology... What emerges will surpass all previous revelations and understandings of the universe. And It will surpass all previous mystical methodology's, including the out dated Guru Model. " Your ideas overall resonate with me a great deal. I do challenge this statement, however. I think that this feeling occurs in many ages. My real concern is this. Where is evidence of psychological maturity in the world? Of spiritual growth? Humanity has faced the exact same problems since time immemorial - hunger, violence, racism, greed, war. Show me any evidence that this is changing. All I see is more polarization, more tribalism, more conflict. I do believe that this maturity can occur and I believe that it can only occur at the individual level. Governments, religions, and their leaders can do nothing. They've done nothing in 40,000 years or so. It can only happen for each of us as individuals when we are ready. So then, how to take this into the large scale and make meaningful change such as you allude to? 9. To bring about this 'Golden Age' will require the greatest Philosophical Courage and honesty, and Epic debates between people from multiple fields of research. So much Philosophical and religious dross will have to be sheared away. I personally believe Open Dialogue will be the golden heart of the new movement. I share your optimism in the value of dialogue. One of the masters of this was Jiddu Krishnamurti. His dialogues with many masters, including David Bohm, are fascinating. The Dalai Lama has continued this by his openness to interacting with the scientific world, physicists in particular. But where has it gotten us? Unfortunately, I don't see much movement at the macro level. Nevertheless, I do see and feel a great deal of movement at the individual level (me) and that is all I can ask.

I recently watched a video by Alan Moore on magic via a TaoBums link. It led me to read his novel, Voice of the Fire. Here is a brief excerpt I like from the final chapter which puts me in mind of some discussion in another thread about history. Don't know if this will stimulate much thought or discussion but it certainly made me think. "History, unendingly revised and reinterpreted, is seen upon examination as merely a different class of fiction; becomes hazardous if viewed as having any innate truth beyond this. Still, it is a fiction that we must inhabit. Lacking any territory that is not subjective, we can only live upon the map. All that remains in question is whose map we choose, whether we live within the world's insistent texts or else replace them with a stronger language of our own."

It's an interesting dynamic. The irony is that these long arguments about Buddhism seem to indicate an attachment to our stances on a discipline that is all about letting them go. Are we digging in our heels because it is important to us to be correct? Are we trying to convince the other person of our view? Are we trying to convince ourselves? I wonder how much we look at our own behavior in these debates and try to learn from it.

Poetry is certainly in the mind of the reader - I'd agree that you should try and look at excerpts from multiple translations then buy the one that sings to you.

Good point and a corollary is that some of it is "what hasn't worked thus far." I think a lot of the trouble comes from behvioral and thoughts patterns that are unhealthy or unproductive and just rote conditioning. The process of waking up and letting go helps us to see what works and what doesn't and fine tune the system. And it's an ongoing process, I think.

Good luck to you noahfor!

Wow - I really liked that cat. Thank you.

I would echo stan's words and add a few. It is relatively easy to abide without the pressures of the world weighing on your shoulders. It is a true test of the method and your mettle to bring your peace and compassion to the others in your life. Be a resource for them. By that I mean a source of love and light, support and humor, I don't mean to proselytize. You have re-entered the world for a reason. You are ready to take your insights and experience to the next level. See how it can truly transform your life, not only when you are hiding in a cave, but when you are immersed in humanity. And that can only be done in the world. Good luck!

What a great opportunity! I wish I'd been with you guys! The last few neigong exercises in my cultivation program have involved working with the navel. Pretty deep stuff. There is the connection to heaven, the connection to earth, and the connection to humanity = that is through the navel I think. Great thing to work with. Dammit! You, Blasto, Otis, and Manitou - undoubtedly four of my favorite Bums! What a time that must have been.

What you feel and see and hear are real. The metaphysical mumbo-jumbo in your head and on this forum is bullshit. It's just words. Thoughts are not reality, just symbols of communication bouncing around in our heads. Words used by people with too much free time and not enough to do. And I'm guilty like everyone else. The idea that life involves suffering is certainly not a lie but that does NOT mean that all of life and all experience is always suffering or false. Quite to the contrary. Life is part pleasure and part pain. That is Yin and Yang. If you didn't ever experience pain, pleasure would be meaningless. You would have no frame of reference. Both are necessary, they define each other. That is called mutual arising and is a core principle of Daoist philosophy. Life is not all suffering but there is some. The Buddhist concepts you are struggling with are not a description of reality, just a prescription to help people that are suffering. Attachment is when you tell yourself that your happiness depends on having something you want or avoiding something unpleasant. Buddhism suggests that this is the source of most suffering. In reality, your happiness depends only on you. Emotion is something inside of us, not something that depends on the outside world. Buddhism prescribes methods and concepts that help break this cycle of attachment. You don't need those tools right now. You're not currently in a position to benefit from them. You've got the ideas twisted around in your head so that rather than easing your suffering, they are terrifying you. Unfortunately, because you stumbled upon all this suddenly, by force (intoxication), all of the necessary background work is not tempering your experience. Rather than a tool to help ease your suffering, this harsh delusion that everything is fake and worthless and so on is causing enormous pain. That in and of itself is a clue that it is a false insight. When you really grow to understand these concepts in a sober and gradual way with proper preparation, they are liberating, not suffocating. You don't need to try and understand reality right now - no one understands it anyway, it is beyond words and ideas. What you need is a good, healthy dose of the real world so you can remember what it feels like. People are real, the world is real. It is the most real thing you will ever know. It is worth the effort and it is worth the game. Hug your girlfriend, enjoy it, take her out to a movie, sing her a song, love her! That is all you get to do in life! Live and love, dance and sing. Enjoy it while you can. Of course, good times don't last forever. There are bad times too. And they are normal and natural and necessary. Good times allow us to enjoy the beauty life has to offer and bad times allow us to grow. So hopefully this obstacle you're wrestling with will be an opportunity for you. This could be a source of great personal growth if you allow it to be.

The desire for "enlightenment" (whatever that word may mean) is every bit as addictive as any other worldly desire. And is a source of enormous frustration (dukkha). What if the magic were in simply being alive? Having the opportunity to walk freely on the earth, smell the flowers and the smog, look at a beautiful sunrise or face, experience love and death. This is pure, absolute, magic. Ironically, we often never understand this until death is knocking on the door. Unfortunately, it's our nature to take the daily experience for granted, no matter what it is. We are designed to evaluate, assess risk vs benefit, and then screen anything out that isn't immediately perceived as threat or opportunity. So a man who is surrounded by beautiful women is bored of them. Delicious wine and food become dull. Buy a beautiful new car and it's just a ride in a few months. We always look for something new, something more. Something other than what we are. What we are is completely ignored, boring, even intolerable. This is insanity!!! We want to levitate, it's not enough to walk. We want to travel to other places with our minds when we can literally fly. We even modify our bodies surgically to gain the approval of strangers. What if enlightenment was simply to have an insight into this and no longer feel a need to be something else? Just be what we are? And look at things with fresh eyes - everything. Plants, animals, people, buildings. Really look and relate to the world rather than pine for something we don't have or can't be. Because whatever it is that we want, when we get it, the desire will still be there. It will just be substituted for something else. What if there is no magnificent state called enlightenment, just a fantasy perpetuated by the mind that is never satisfied? Get out and take a walk. Listen to birds. Listen to waves on a beach. Soak up some sun. Walk topless in the rain. Roll around in the grass. Enjoy intimacy with your girlfriend like it was the first time you shared it. When that is all you need, I think you just may understand enlightenment. Just a guess...

No worries at all. Be well.

Thanks for the reply - good stuff to think about. I have no doubt that there is more to be revealed to me! Whether or not I'll ever wade through the entire Pali cannon is another matter altogether. The two perspectives still feel a bit different to me - Silence tells me that reality simply is. No need for words. DO tells me that reality isn't, in words. I'll go with the former... Just my current perspective and experience, quite possibly skewed or erroneous. But it seems to work for me right now. If all is emptiness, there's certainly enough room for both of us.

As soon as I see one of these sorts of debates developing my eyes glaze over and I move on. I occasionally will add my perspective, FWIW. I can understand Michael's frutstration - it does seem an unnecessary and endless bickering. Some of the folks who contribute to the Buddhist bickering still have good contributions to the forum and I personally don't want to ignore them for that reason. I generally only use ignore for really unpleasant folks. I don't want to add to the mods' work or make the forum more restrictive either. I wonder if a sub-forum dedicated to deep/esoteric Buddhist philosophy and practice might be worthwhile. I agree with Vortex also - sometimes I do learn something about Buddhism for the threads but they get so deep and repetetive, it is a lot to wade through. Good luck to the admins - it ain't easy...

I do appreciate the reply and your views but must disagree. Thunderous silence is not a reality because it is not an explanation and takes no position. That is the point exactly. There is no "I" present doing any understanding or explaining. It is a way to say Reality is - there is no understanding because there is no "I" to understand or explain, it just is, leave it at that. DO is a very subtle and elegant explanation but is still constructed by, elucidated by, and is understood by the human mind. Consequently it is a concept to cling to for the mind. I do thoroughly understand your explanation and yet, from my perspective, DO is a tricksey way for the mind to say - aha, I understand but I'm not breaking the rules. But then, who is doing the understanding? As I stated before, I think DO is best looked at as a method, a tool, a prescription to diminish suffering. So we study it a bit and apply the idea in our daily lives and that's fine. Anything else that occurs incident to it is wonderful, or not, but as soon as we point to DO as an explanation for reality we are pointing, we are holding it up as something valuable for the mind to understand - something that "explains" reality, therefore, at some level, we are clinging to it and I think that violates the Buddha's intention. Buddhism is no different in this regard to the other major traditions. There are some wonderful things, many of which are the core values and principles. Then there are lots of places where the ideas are taken too far and are corrupted and exploited and deviate from the original intention. Just the views of someone who is a bit outside of Buddhism, looking in. FWIW. Be well.

Hi Vajrahridaya, I'm relatively ignorant of the Buddhist sutras but something that I think is critical and often under-emphasized is that everything, including the concept of dependent origination is subject to this. That is, dependent origination is not Reality either, as you allude to with "the experience is not the words." Becoming attached to the concept of DO is no less a potential source of dukkha than attachment to the Hindu atman or anything else. Sometimes I get the impression that you are putting forth DO as if it were a description of Reality "according" to Buddhism and I think this is a misrepresentation. It may only be my misinterpretation of your words, but it is my impression. The only thing Buddha was truly concerned with and explained explicitly was suffering and a prescription to address it - not a doctrine, concept, or ideology to address the nature of Reality. The principle of DO is an exercise, a mindset, a prescription to lessen dukkha associated with an attachment to an explanation of Reality. But DO can easily become a concept to cling too and that is not its purpose. I love the paradox. It seems to me that subsequent teachers have over-emphasized Buddhist "explanations" or "concepts" to describe reality and I think that violates the spirit of the "thunderous silence" and emptiness.

Yungchen Lhamo: Ari-lo Luisa Maita: Lero-lero

A few things that may be worth thinking about. People going through the natural process of Buddhist and Daoist cultivation have a much more gradual progression of feelings and experiences of what the self is and what it isn't and so forth. The idea of no-self is just another idea - it is not reality. Reality is much too subtle or complex to capture in a simple word or concept. Buddha introduced the concept simply as a challenge to the concept that existed at the time - that of Advaita Vedanta - the idea of one great Self. The idea of no-self was not intended to represent the truth or reality, just to point out that the Hindus were still clinging to a concept (the Self or Atman) and thus vulnerable to suffering as a result of their attachment. You had an experience in which the feeling of self was severely and suddenly challenged and that can be very scary. It's important to keep in mind that the experience you had was caused by intoxication with a synthetic drug - basically a toxin and it was a very traumatic one. It was not a natural experience or awakening. Drugs often lie to us. They cloud true clarity of perception. They can be very harmful to susceptible people. They emphasize certain things and hide others. The conclusions we draw from drug related experiences are often faulty. This is why it is critical to use drugs for spiritual purposes under experienced guidance, if at all. You could be experiencing a condition known as de-personalization disorder. It can occur after use of hallucinogens and is similar to what you describe. There is a difference between what you are experiencing and the natural experience of connecting to something deeper and more profound that most people describe as a result of natural awakening. It is very rarely so traumatic and horrifying. There is often fear and difficulty but also great joy and love and feelings of peace and security and contentment. The very traumatic experiences are much more commonly associated with sudden, artificial, forced experience through drugs like LSD, Ayahuasca, Salvia Divinorum, and so on. If the negative feelings continue I would suggest you considering talking to a mental health professional - preferably someone with some knowledge of some of these Eastern concepts. These concepts have been gaining considerable attention in the world of mental health. Therapists who work with techniques like ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) and some cognitive therapies are an example. You could also consider speaking to a spiritual advisor of your choice of denomination. Beware of depending solely on a bunch of strangers on a web forum to support you through something so traumatic. Many of us would love to help but a closer, more personal type of support may be more beneficial. Good luck and feel free to send me a private message if you want to discuss anything further.

So while practicing Taijiquan this morning, something occurred to me that's relevant to this discussion. There's been talk about doing Taijiquan without intent (dissolving into the practice) and there's been discussion of the sage and whether he/she acts with intention or not. And certainly we need to be careful about our words and our meaning. So as I'm practicing and I'm using the Yi to guide the Qi in order to cultivate Qi and song it occurs to me that Yi is intent. We can make distinctions between 'intention' and 'intent' but nonetheless, they are closely related. And in Taijiquan we are using the form to train the Yi to guide the Qi and thus cultivating QI and Song (and other things at the same time). Similarly in Neigong and Neiyeh we are developing and refining the Yi. All cultivation practices (well, most at least, all is a dangerous word) are based on and designed to develop skillful application of Yi. So why work so hard on developing and refining Yi if the sage doesn't use it? I don't think the "intent" here is to let go of intent or even diminish it. I think was we develop is a different perspective on what intent is and where it comes from. Who is manifesting intent? And that sort of thing. So the point is to align the intent with its true source and recognize that the pesky "me" thought that tries to intrude and take credit for everything is not the source of the Yi. And when we become the true source of the Yi we are acting in complete accordance with Dao - Wu Wei. To what degree can that occur? Is it a constant thing? Transient? All in my head? Who knows? Not "me"... But it occurred to me and felt right so there it is... Have a nice day everyone.