Apech

I agree with the second point. But I still do not think that there can be inate badness can be proven, or that it even exists at all. Naturally, we apply to word "bad" (or its ancient equivilent) to things that harm us and this may have been its origin, but over the course of history it was construed into an apparently independent standard used to classify many things outside the realm of actual harm (culturally relative things). Thus I think the idea of an independent standard of badness does not exist. This, of course is based on the idea of the possible absence of an ultimate, eternal deity, since things of the divine do not reside in the realm of rationalism or empiricism and cannot be proven. Of course all that I have said above is just as subjective as anything else.

 

 

 

Just to cross reference to the etymology thread I thought I better look up the word 'bad'.

 

From Origins by Eric Partridge I find:

 

ME bad, earlier badde: perh. (Webster) from OE baeddel, a hermaphrodite, cf OE baedling, an effeminate; but ? rather from C. *bados ... whence *bassos, the root being *bad, to be wide or open, the basic meaning of the adj. being 'wide open (to all influence, esp. the worst).

 

So it seems that bad either means effeminate or gullible. Not sure where this leaves us but it certainly seems to undermine the sense of just straightforward malevolent. And it does seem to lead towards a judgmental view i.e. I call bad anything which I deem to be not acceptable to me.

 

I await your learned opinion.

you are what you are

from within and without and

critical judgements

 

critical judgements -

the sharpened knives that cut deep

leaving beads of blood.

 

 

Thanks - very interesting.

Thanks! No clear element per direction as far as I can make out and that's fine with me.

 

West is my pet direction at the moment, so the death/scorpion thing is interesting to me. So the sun dies in the west and their necropolis is in the west. I forget if you said this before, but does Thoth or Quebhsenuef have deathiness to them?

 

I read in Haich's "Initiation" which is essentially channeled/homegrown info that the scorpion in Egyptian religion symbolizes the fluids of the body which when harnessed correctly create the poison needed to kill the ego to allow for a spiritual rebirth and that the scorpion stings itself with its own poison to do this and then the scorpion is reborn as a hawk. (As I type this a hawk is hunting in my backyard.) In the book she calls refers to the scorpion as the "scorpion-hawk"...

 

Does her account find any traction with what you know or simply more new agey drivel?

 

I'm imagining that I'm seeing a connection between N & W and S & E in your descriptions.

 

Was the red crown tall too!

 

Thanks!

Yoda

 

 

Hi

 

I don't have a big problem with Haich's view of the scorpion energy. Certainly there is a scorpion/hawk dynamic because of Serqet/Quebsenuef. If you want to continue the astrology link then you might consider a hawk (possibly air) with a water link (libation) in the West AND an air sign with a water connection in the 'west' on Zodiac (is it?) Aquarius. (?)

 

Also I think healing and illness connotations of Serqet can be translated to fluids that kill ego and so on. yes.

 

Cheers.

 

I voted normal - but I want to say that this site is great - I love the debate, discussions, disagreements and humour. So when I say normal its cos I think its still great.

You assume that humanity is not subjective.

No where did I include myself in such a group. And bravo to a wonderful response....

The harm is based on the individual and what causes that harm changes throughout time. I do not condone rape or child molestation. But it is only a case of majority rule, one group placing the health and validity of their desires over another, the group in power that creates the system around these sexual preferences. It is the forcing against ones will that causes the harm (this could be anything outlawed in a system), it is not the sexual preference itself. Also be wary of with which eyes you are viewing something. And no, nothing is "inherently" bad. I challenge to prove inherit badness or define bad objectively.

 

 

I agree there is always a problem with moral absolutes. For instance would killing Hitler have been good or bad? But of course there is a chain of harm or the karma of harmful acts which probably makes Hitler a victim too. I would say harming others is always bad. Maybe if there is no intent or the person doing it is unable to understand the consequences of their acts then this might mitigate in terms of the punishment but it doesn't change the badness of the thing.

 

I am totally with you on state or culturally determined licensing of sexual activity. For instance gay sex is almost universally condemned in religions whose major works were written in ancient (and medieval) times (even Buddhism!) but most peoples view now is entirely different. This because the state (and organised religion) likes to control people and this perhaps is the essence because it is all about power over the other and the abuse of this power - the abuse of this power being 'harm'.

Wudangquan, I dont have any questions but I just wanted to thank you for what your doing.

 

 

Same here. Thanks.

and slots to slot in

as if that was a human

way of being now

 

way of being, now

that is a path to follow,

you are what you are.

---------

The crowns:

 

 

I've never been a la carte before!

Hi Apech,

 

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.

 

Lust is a desire for and leads to the pursuit of gross phenominalogical experience and material delusion.

 

Lao Zi said:

 

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

To transform the effect is not enough (I believe). You have to eliminate the causality of material delusion.

 

He also said:

 

Fill your bowl to the brim

and it will spill.

Keep sharpening your knife

and it will blunt.

Chase after money and security

and your heart will never unclench.

Care about people's approval

and you will be their prisoner.

 

Do your work, then step back.

The only path to serenity.

 

I believe that this fill your bowl and that sharpening your knife are directly applicable to semen retention.

 

How do you eliminate lust by encouraging lustfullness? By transforming the secondary manifestations? I believe in the end you dull your blade and loose MUCH, MUCH more Jing than you ever conserved.

 

Similarly, I don't believe that Taoism uses mutual male/female cultivation as we are all in posession of both yin and yang elements (I bring this up because some famous teachers encourage this):

 

Ordinary men hate solitude.

But the Master makes use of it,

embracing his aloneness, realizing

he is one with the whole universe.

 

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were meaning, Apech. I'm often mistaken.

 

In general I believe that these practices initially lead to frustration, and eventually can take you no where but towards more sorrow and suffering.

 

My belief and underestanding is that it's necessary to eliminate the root of the problem (conditioned desire and material attachments) and that dealing with the secondary or tertiary manifestations doesn't in fact deal with the core issue.

 

This is why (as I understand it) it takes so long for people to reach enlightenment or even higher levels in their cultivation.

 

The work and work and work for years to develop potential, but never eliminate their constraints.

 

Then, after years and years have gone by and they find themselves old, exhausted, and time has naturallly worn away their attachments - Bam! it happens.

 

But by addressing the funadmental causes of suffering head on and in an upright way we are able to ascend in a more direct and efficient way.

 

For me - I have these scant few years in this life. Better to be diligent and do my best to step out of humanness than to compare myself with the achievements of others, or pruning back the branches of untruth rather than taking an axe to the roots.

 

All that said - I am not so sucessful. I am still lost in the same untruth as everybody else but my feelings on this issue - it's something I want to share with other people since not many other people are talking this way.

 

 

Respect to you Wudang,

 

I totally accept the proposition that desire/lust is a cause of confusion and ignorance and leads to scattering and so on. But I believe in being 'in the world if not of the world'. For some maybe cutting themselves off is a productive and helpful approach but I know that to understand myself and eliminate my faults I need to be in relation to others (not necessarily sexual of course ). I know if I lived a monkish existence there would be blind spots in my experience and ability (even more than there are now!) - even though I often yearn for solitude.

 

Can we transcend lust - yes! but not by pretending it doesn't exist and not without that greater power - love.

 

However, I have to say in humility - what do I know? I just do my best.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Apepch7.

The first thing to remember when looking at the compass directions and Ancient Egypt is the unusual geography of the country. Essentially there are two types of habitable terrain. The southern part of the country is simply the strip of land formed by the flood plane of the Nile, beyond this both to the East and the West is desert. As the river, flowing South to North, reaches the middle of the country it begins to broaden out into a massive delta of multiple rivulets and wetlands. The delta empties into the Mediterranean Sea. So the northern terrain is very distinct to the southern. The necropolis was sited on the West bank which became associated with death.

 

In ancient times the land was divided in two. Upper Egypt in the South was ruled by kings wearing the tall white crown while the North, or Lower Egypt was ruled by kings wearing the Red Crown. The tutelary goddesses, associated with these crowns were Nekhabet, the vulture in the South and Wadjet the cobra in the North. The gods associated with these ancient kings were Horus in the North and Set in the South. To these we can add Thoth for the West and in the East either another form of Horus called Dwanany or sometimes Min (a fertility god) or An-hur (Onuris) the hunter. Confusion often arises because of the two forms of Horus, one in the North and one in the East. The Northern Horus is sometimes called Horus the Elder.

 

In illustrations of the the royal coronation two gods are shown annointing or libating the king, these are traditionally Horus and Set or later Horus and Thoth (possibly because Set became increasingly associated with destruction or to add an East/West dimension to the scene).

 

The unified kingdom of Egypt (still known as the 'Two Lands or Kingdoms") came about as a result of a struggle between the Southern and Northern kings, the followers of Set and Horus. This was mythologised in the 'Contendings of Horus and Set' in which the two gods were said to battle for 80 years. During this struggle Set was said to injure Horus' eye (in return Horus tore off Set's testicles (ouch!)). This is actually symbolic of a condition of impasse where willful drive and overseeing awareness neutralise each other. In compensation for the loss of his eye Horus (who is the eventual winner of this struggle) is given the four Sons of Horus, two in the North and two in the South.

 

As Horus, the god associated with the 'eye' is all about awareness and when his eye is sound or whole - this is unified awareness, wholeness of being or consciousness, when we are dealing with duality, that is when we don't have this unified consciousness we have four points of view which help us understand and deal with things in the absence of this holistic awareness. These four distinct ways of seeing or experiencing things are the Sons of Horus.

 

The Sons of Horus are present on three levels of existence. In the sky, the god or noumenal realm, as four of the Imperishible Souls - the stars of the Great Bear (Ursa Major) which never set below the horizon and as the Four Rudders of Heaven. In the 'atmosphere' of Shu as the pillars of heaven. In the earth/body as the gods of the Canopic Jars holding the organs of the body removed in mummification.

 

In this last form we can try to understand their function. I'll go through them one by one.

 

Imsety

 

This god protects the liver and is human headed. Its direction is South and it is protected by the goddess Isis. Imsety is said to "make your house flourish and endure" - here 'house' probably means body, the place where your spirit dwells.

 

The Egyptians had good medical knowledge and understood circulation and so on. However its not entirely clear what they thought of the function of the liver. But its not huge step to assume that they intuited the function along the lines of modern knowledge. The liver is a kind of chemical factory for the body which manufactures glycogen and also filters the blood. I am assuming here then that 'making the house flourish and endure' is about manufacturing the chemicals for metabolism and energy.

 

Hapi

 

This god protects the lungs and has the head of an ape or baboon. Its direction is North and it is protected by Nephthys. Hapi is said to "knit together your head and your members (body)...given you your head for ever." The joining of the head to the body was a most significant thing for the Egyptians.

 

Hapi is sometimes called the 'navigator' or 'great runner'. The name of the goddess Nephthys is usually given as 'Lady of the House' - in Egyptian Nebet-hwt. Nebet means Lady and Hwt actually means temple enclosure. So a better translation would be "Mistress of the temple" or High Priestess.

 

The association of 'lungs' with joining the head to the body probably comes from the 'sma' unification symbol where the North and South of Egypt are unitesd together by knotting plants around a lung and trachea symbol.

 

Obviously the lungs are to do with breathing, which again rather like the liver is to do with energy metabolism. Also there are two lungs which are joined so I suppose the symbolism is obvious. Joining the head to the body covers two things really, one is to do with identity. The head is the recognisable person, the face and so without your head you could be any spirit in the underworld. But more importantly the head is exclusively the site of four out of the five senses. So the head is about perception. Joining the head to the body means joining presence and perception.

 

Duamutef

 

This god protects the stomach and has the head of a jackal. Its direction is East and it is protected by the warrior/huntress goddess Neith (or Nit). He is said to "protect you from he who would harm you ...".

 

The name Duamutef means literally "he who praises his mother".

 

The stomach is of course principally about breaking down food in order to digest it using acid. As distinct from the first two organs this is less about energy metabolism but more about the process of assimilation.

 

Quebhsenuef

 

This god protects the intestines and has the head of a hawk. Its direction is West and it is protected by the scorpion goddess Serqet (or Selkis). He is said to "join your bones together for you, collect your members for you, bring your heart for you."

 

The name Quebhsenuef means literally "he who libates his siblings", libate means to cleanse with water. The Scorpion goddess accompanies Isis and is to do with healing. She has the title "Serqet-hetu" which means either reliever or constrictor of the windpipe depending on how you read it. This is likely to be something to do with the use of scorpion venom for healing - a symptom of some scorpion stings was throat restriction.

 

The intestines remove nutrients and water from digested food to feed the body, also about the process of assimilation.

 

 

There is a lot more to be said on this very important subject but my typing fingers are worn out.

 

Over to you Yoda, to say which of the Sons is which element.

 

Should number three be 'once a day'? not once a week?

What is lust?

 

 

Indiscriminate sexual pleasure seeking ?

 

 

I think there may be a confusion on this thread between tackling lust as a potentially destructive and selfish act and energy conservation for a 'higher' purpose. I don't think cultivation is about suppressing or stopping sexual feelings, rather it is about using this energy in a different way and not squandering it in a way that harms or disrespects self or others or is just wasteful.

 

Obviously there is a struggle when we start to use this energy differently but I think we have to learn about it first. This means that if we don't understand this energy but simply try to repress it we are storing up problems for the future.

Apepch7,

 

You read my mind... thank you!

 

No north star back in the day?????

 

The astronomical north varies with time and in the time of Ancient Egypt there was no star in that position. I believe this led to the importance of non-being or voidity in Egyptian thought because the universe rotated around no-thing!

 

I totally get that North and West are downward and East and South are upward... thanks for that!!

 

I don't understand the elemental correspondences on a gut level. Do I have them right? Per me, the Egyptian elemental correspondences are:

 

West/air

South/water

East/fire

North/earth

 

That seems to go against the upward/downward thing, with water being upward S and air being downward W.

 

Ok - even though Western Hermetic thought owes its origin to Egypt (and Mesopotamia) one to one crrespondence is difficult - the Egyptians sort of hinted at the elements as such but they were not expressed in the way that we understand today. So while some read across is valuable it can be misleading. For instance using the Kabbalistic Tree of Life with Egyptian deities is something people do - ok fine for them - but doesn't work for me. Its probably best if I give you more on the Sons of Horus and you can draw your own conclusions.

 

 

Need to ponder the animals too to see if I can feel it.

 

I suppose there are different directions to face for different meditations/ceremonies/etc?

 

Let me know if there are certain gods consistently associated with particular directions?

 

Do the Egyptians do anything with the NE/SE/SW/NW directions?

 

Yes - I will give more info on this thread in a while.

 

I know you've said that the Egyptians didn't have a developed astrology system originally, but maybe the directional influences could fit in somehow with a simple astrology system, you think? Do the Egyptians do "hours" or something similar that have correspondences?

 

The Egyptians 'invented' hours using amongst other things the Decanal Stars - so they had a 24 hour day based on sets of twelve stars which 'work' for ten days each. Basically through the night they watched when certain stars rose above the horizon, or reached the mid heaven and this marked the beginning of each hour. because the sky precesses (?), the stars are only in alignment for 10 days after which the next star takes its place. During the day they used water clocks and sun dials. Certain hours were significant eg. midnight when the sun's soul was most at risk. Each hour has characteristics given for instance in the Am Dwat or Book of Gates and the New Kingdom Sky books.

 

Of course in later times, particularly Ptolemaic times astrology as we now know it was used. However it doesn't interest me so I don't know much about it. As the Egyptian religion was still properly understood then I am sure they worked out all the correspondences and I am sure there are excellent books on this - or just start here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_Zodiac

 

 

More on Sons of Horus etc. in a bit.

 

 

Law is subjective. Sex "offenders" are only offenders because society deems it so, not because of an objective standard. Society have existed in the past were things like pedestry and lust murder (in ritual) were practiced, normal, accepted and ingrained into the social fabric. There is nothing inherently wrong with it. Governments of the future could make heterosexual relationships illegal for all I know... If people with your opinion are in charge the majority of us would get castrated and lobotomized.

 

 

The law may be subjective but an act of sexual harm is not. To the victim it is very real. I am of a liberal mind on most things but the limit must come when the will of the perpetrator is inflicted on the victim - that is sexual misconduct and inherently bad. The age of consent may vary with time and history but consent is what it is about. Lust murder in ritual! as normal - maybe to the Aztecs - but come on was it ever really ok?

Hi Yoda,

 

You need more correspondences to understand the Sons of Horus. I will supply tomorrow cos its late here and I'm going to bed.

 

They do have hours and the goddesses go in the nw/ne/se/sw compass points on the canopic jar chest.

 

Thanks for reading my stuff by the way.

 

 

Cheers.

It has been shown that there is a convention for orientation based on what is known as the "Opening of the mouth". This was a ceremony performed with statues and mummies to 'activate' them. After this had been done it was thought that the statue or mummy could use its mouth, either to speak or to take in food. For the funerary ceremony, the mummy was placed in a semi-upright position on a mound of sand facing South with its head leaning backwards towards the North. Because of this, its right side was towards the West and its left side towards the East. This association was so clear that the word for right was 'West' and for left was 'East'.

 

The compass points all had symbolic significance. The West is associated with the sun-set and the land of the dead, the Egyptian word for this 'Amenti' literally means 'hidden land'. The East is associated with the sun rise and creation (kheper), evolving or 'coming into being'. The South is the associated with the origin of the Nile and therefore fertility and with the brightest constellations in the night sky, Sothis and Orion (or Isis and Osiris) and also the zenith point of the midday sun. The North is associated with the eternal and imperishible stars which do not set and the 'Great Mooring Post' the North point in the sky around which the whole sky appears to rotate. In Egyptian times there was no North star and so this point was dark space. This fixed point is protected by the hippo goddess who represents the birth of the world from the Nun.

 

Because the mummy was inclined backwards during the Opening the Mouth, the top of its head would point North and its gaze would be at the Southern sky, which would include the zenith of the 'plane of ecliptic' or the height of the midday sun. The plane of ecliptic is the plane of the solar system through which the sun and planets appear to move, the Egyptians called it 'the winding waterway' because during the year the sun moves from one extreme of a band(about 12 degrees) to another. So from the point of the mummy the sun rises on his left to be directly in front at midday. So in this sense the Southern sky is associated with the luminous, either the sun in the day or the bright stars and planets during the night.

 

To oppose this 'bright sky' we have the West and the North. On the mummy's right hand side the sun sets in the West. It enters the land of death, the Dwat or Amenti. Here the sun is thought to slough all the detritus picked up during the day, it is purified and 'dissolved' in the waters of Nun back to its essential nature. These dark waters are associated with the North, the fixed point, the void around which the stars, the gods and all beings rotate and into which the universe will be extinguished at the end of the world.

 

The Egyptians saw everything in terms of dualities. Here the East and South form one, to do with luminosity and the West and North form another to do with voidity. The way in which they expressed these two pairs was using the symbolism of the Sons of Horus. These four deities are usually connected with the canopic jars which held the organs which were removed during mummification. But it has become clear that this was a secondary association and that the 'Sons' were originally either stars or the 'pillars of the sky'. The pillars of the sky assisted Shu (the air god) in his task of holding the sky up.

 

The sky, or the goddess Nut, is seen as a woman (or sometimes a cow) with her body stretched over the earth. Her head is in the West and her feet in the East. Each morning she gives birth to the sun and then in the evening swallows it. During the night the sun passed through her body which comprises the water of Nun. Her arms and legs support her arched body as does the god Shu. Also supporting her are the pillars of heaven.

 

If we look on Middle Egyptian coffins we an see these four Sons of Horus shown usually on the two long sides, two on the right side and two on the left. We already know that 'right' means West and left means East, so we know that Two are in the West and Two in the East. These four gods were also associated with the compass points and through the series of associations we end up with North and West on the right-hand side of the coffin and South and East on the left-hand side. While this is quite complicated the associations are quite clear. ( Care to be taken when looking at New Kingdom sarcophagi as the orientation changed at the beginning of this period.)

 

These four pillars of heaven are the four principles which keep the sky from the earth and thus the world in existence. Two are to do with upward movement and growth, the Eastern and Southern and two are to do with downward movement and death and dissolution, the Western and Northern. Each are ascribed an animal form as follows:

 

South - Imsety - man

North - Hapi - ape

East - Duamutef - jackal

West - Quebehsenuef - hawk

 

The number four here denotes 'establishment', that is the idea that through these four the world is made stable, established and the symbol for this is the 'djed' pillar of Osiris, an object which has not been precisely identified but which is topped by four vertebrae and is certainly associated with the spine. Vertical uprightness is important in Egypt as the resurrection of Osiris is said to be his 'raising up', also the cobra goddess 'Iaret', or Greek Uraeus means 'she who rears up' and also the obvious connection with the sun rising. One Egyptian word for 'to exist' was 'st' - written with a throne glyph which is also the symbol of Isis.

 

Here Isis and her sister Nephthys stand for the two phases of the sun's cycle, that of the 'morning boat' from midnight until midday and that of the 'evening boat' from midday until midnight. The first 'growing phase' is Isis, the throne who embraces and supports Osiris bringing into being his son Horus and the second being Nephthys the pathway down into voidity (and death). Because of this Isis is placed in protection over Imsety (the South) the basis for luminosity and Nephthys is placed in protection over Hapi the Northern point of voidity. In a similar way the other two 'sons' have their protecting goddesses.

 

These Sons of Horus are the historical origin of the four fixed points of the zodiac, the four beast and the four elements of Western Hermetic thought.

 

The Opening of the Mouth was actually a way of encapsulating and using this understanding of the cosmos to create the the right conditions for a functioning being. That is through the alignment of an individual to the correct cosmic correspondences it is possible to 'tune in' and gain benefit from the natural forces that exist. In meditational terms one could say that the whole thing is like a kind of 'mind map', which allows understanding of the luminous, the void and that which lies beyond them by experiencing the pattern of energies which they bring into being.

Indeed it comes from the Latin from "persona" - "human being," originally "character in a drama, mask," possibly borrowed from Etruscan "phersu" - "mask."

 

From what I have learned these "drama masks" were designed specifically to aid in the voice projection of the actors which would link to your "through sounding" meaning.

 

 

Stig,

 

Do you have any good etym. dictionaries. I use

 

Bloomsbury Dictionary of Word Origins - John Ayto (basic but interesting)

 

and

 

'Origins' by Eric Partidge

 

I used to use a dictionary by Wylde but I think its out of print.

I agree with the view that the basis of any practice has to be deep formless meditation but I am with Stig on the purpose of magic. I once discussed the formless/form mediation i.e. just sitting versus mantra, visualization and so on with a Rinpoche and he told me to read "The woman's role in the dharma" from The Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa"..."clouds are but manifestations of the sky."

 

I cannot do and have never even tried to perform any siddhi type tricks or demonstrations - so you won't get any vids from me. I am also completely unconvinced by any of the vids I have seen especially as any stage magician could probably reproduce them. I think these things are possible but only come to fruition through forcing that kind of path and/or as an adjunct to real spiritual progress.

yes, he and his system called mo pai are indeed authentic.

 

 

That's interesting - thanks I googled him.

 

Have studied under him or his system?

I practice the Gayatri mantra and you do not need an empowerment to practice this mantra. This is according to Thomas Ashley-Farrand who is considered an expert on mantras and has authored many books on the subject.

 

 

Yes, I meant to say that IMO it works more powerfully with the initiation and not that it is impossible otherwise. Different systems have different approaches of course.

 

 

 

Able to display demonstrable paranormal ability.

 

 

But is he authentic????