Apech

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

I agree with the former. Jing is getting close to be the body cell.

The latter description is the conception of the sperm united with the egg is not a bio-chemical one? What do you mean by energetic event?

That’s a good question.  I agree it’s a vague term which needs a bit of elaboration.  What I think is that when a baby is conceived there is an interaction between the parents above and beyond the physical coupling.  That is there is a mental, emotional and spiritual connection between the two which energizes and imprints on the fertilized egg.  This gives the jing component to the new being determining its health and longevity etc.

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I can go along with that. BTW The substance of Yuen Jing is living in the structure of the human body. What do you think about that? 

The prenatal Jing, 元精, was passed on from the parents. What do you think about that?

I would say that jing is what makes the body a living organism rather than a collection of chemicals.

Jing is passed on from parents because conception is an energetic event and not just a bio- chemical one.  
 

31 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

You are welcome. Thank you for asking!

Doesn't it analogous to the body cell in modern language. The ancient Taoist do not have the term such as "body cell" to call this substance. Thus they had a way to express it by using chi(氣) to describe it. In order for the modern people to understand what chi is by using the term "物資(substance)".  The Chinese language does not spell everything out like in English. When they look at the character 氣, it could be anything that comes into their mind. It would be very confusing if we interpret 氣 as energy for anything that we come across. 

Yuen Chi comprises the structure of the human human body.

A cell is the smallest living organism and the basic unit of life on earth.
In these two statements, aren't we saying the same thing but in different time frame?
 

So, the confusion between Neigong, Neidan ang Qigong will be haunting us forever.

No that doesn’t follow at all.  Not even by analogy. 
 

But I’m glad you cleared up your argument for the idea of a unit.  Substance is a better word to use especially in the context of Neidan.  It is more accurate although of course one needs to be crystal clear about what exactly a substance is in this context.

37 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It says right here. However, you would like to interpret it.

https://m.baidu.com/bh/m/detail/ar_9447006070421903235
 

道家元精论

精 为形之基，是人体生命的物质基础，察受于先人而充乔十后天，故就其来源可分为先天之精与后天之精。“元精”，即揩先天之精而言。元者，始也，元精是生命的 捏源物质，并具有调节与主宰生殖、生民发育的作用。《内经》中虽无“元精”一词，但《灵枢•本神》“生之米，谓之精”、《灵枢•决气》“两神相搏，合而成 形，常先身生，是谓精”，以及《灵枢•经脉》“人始生，先成精”之“精”，皆是指元精而言。

精 为形之基，Jing is the basic form,
是人体生命的物质基础: It is the fundamental(基础) vital(生命) substance(物质) of the human body(人体).
 

Thanks.  So it’s a fundamental vital substance of the body.  Good that’s clear.  A substance and not a unit after all.

11 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Let me ask you first. What do you think Yuen Jing is?

 

You said it was a ‘unit’ so I would like to know where you got that from.

33 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The phrases are just paradoxical statements that are very common on Chinese classic. What it is trying to say was:
It was referring to Jing, Chi, Shen. Yes, they are the three treasuries imagined by the Taoist. However, they are not all shapeless. For example, yuen Jing(精) was defined as the prenatal Jing that is the basic unit that comprises the human body. In modern terms, what is the basic unit that makes up the human body? Don't think that the body cell is analogous to the prenatal Jing? The best way to express 元精is by calling it a substance(物資).  The body cell can be seen under a microscope, hence it is can be defined as 有形 material substances. However, it is invisible to the eyes of the ancient Taoist. It is because they knew it exist without a microscope.

元氣 and 元神 are shapeless is because they are just vital forces that initially drive the action of the human body.
 

Where does it say that Yuen jing is a ‘unit’?

On 13/12/2025 at 3:54 PM, ChiDragon said:

How do you practice this 陽神功。Please describe. Thanks!

 

AI only collects information but do not make up stories to lie to you.

AI (grok and perplexity) often make things up it is well known.  You can use them as a research tool with caution but you have to check everything with sources.  You cannot rely on AI for interpretation or guidance.

The Ainu have an isolate language I believe.

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

juice, lips, tongue, sweet now

and not a kiss to be had

anywhere--but then

 

anywhere--but then

everywhere--come, get your share

when we all shine on

 

when we all shine on

bringing up that black gloss on

someone else’s shoes.

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Yes! I would add to this that "intent" is important... what it is you want to get out of it and who that is for, and what damage might be the fallout. 

 

I watched to movie over the weekend, and I am inclined to agree with Barford - it DOES illuminate much of what I have seen about magick, but even more the BASICS of it. In my case, I had already had few years of visions, (including things some might characterize as the "dead", or "demons"  (not that I believe in them in that way) and then in summoning the HGA an encounter very much in the flavor of the movie, though not the same."My" HGA was a very different affair, but had the same amazing realism, etc. Later I had the appearance of other Christian characters (I am NOT a Christian) that were MUCH more like the movie - gold breastplates and armor, the size/scale, etc. I understand why Barford says he teared up seeing this scene - it gets it right. 

 

 

Honestly, this part seems impossible to me... a complete delusion. None of these things exists as a truly separate thing to command in my experience, and IF the HGA is commensurate with "stream entry" in Buddhism, anyone what saw it would KNOW that, or come to realize in a short time. 

I recall that Padmasambhava spent some of his time calming and binding gods and demons to the dharma (as did other eg. Mila).  Also Mahakala is called Betali i.e. demon and Yaksha ie. nature spirit.  So I conclude that having got the HGA binding demons of the world is logical (maybe necessary?).

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

My first thought about this was, if HGA conversation IS the same as "stream entry", why would you bother what what I would think of as a very worldly practice like trying to manipulate other beings or people?

I don't know about stream entry ... but I am thinking 1st Bhumi ... but I don't think the HGA is that.  It may be closer to the first full bodhicitta realisation (?) I'm not sure.  But certainly meeting your root guru.

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Ngondro is a clearing, and becoming familiar with the path. It digs up the stuff you have been avoiding dealing with.. BUT it actually has the whole path in it and could enlighten you itself. The famous Dudjom Rinpoche of the Nyingma tradition (the Buddhist tradition I worked in primarily) did it even AFTER his enlightenment, and until his death. 

 

 

Yes precisely.  I know of masters who do it several times ... and as you say after realisation.  Not that I am comparing myself - but I do it as a kind of rolling programme even though I have supposedly 'completed' it.

5 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

 

Life, Death, is like that

why collect if not to give

when ripe, the fruit falls

 

when ripe, the fruit falls

full soft pear and satsuma

juice, lips, tongue, sweet now.

Hi and welcome.

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

This is what seems to happen .  Conversely I got great results and blabber about it all the time , yet find it hard to pin down the actual  work or single ritual that did it  for me .

 

Its been broached here in a few posts and in the vid above ; constant dedication , purification . oration / invocation  ,  emotive desire , mental will , physical process ( ritual / retreat , etc )   and 'spiritual connection'  to self/s . 

 

There are essential  things behind all practices , regardless of the 'cultural clothing'  those practices wear . probably because  we all share  similarities in the human psyche . 

 

- a point about 'magical results'   ...... work work work ... nothing !    But then later  ......      

 

 

Someone hodge podged it all together  ;   taking the first principle of 'isolation / retreat / meditation / hermitage / vipassana  '  ie. preparation by isolation from 'untoward ' influences  ... letting  arise , etc .

 

 

40 days in the desert ... all sorts of things can happen

 

;    

 

 

 

Crowley put it simply 

 

''  Super-consciousness of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.... '' and   '' Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon ; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attained it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration ——as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. ''

 

https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/1.2/postcards-to-probationers_low.pdf

 

and attached it to this  ' commanding demons '  ( fair enough )  but to fulfill base desires  ( wtf ?  )  

 

IMO its all about ( or should have been or should be ) establishing and clearing the hierarchy of the psyche  ; first purify and train and get clear in 'self'  , next 'get clear ' on your spiritual hierarchy  (  one's own 'hierarchy of being ' )  and start with invoking a  higher principle in it ( but not one we are normally aware of )  ie, 'HGA '   then  deal with the 'lower'  or 'daemonic ' aspects , so the whole psyche works in unison  according to will . 

 

The compiler maybe didnt understand any other process but knew about the  squares and commanding demons so 'stuck that in ' ... or maybe just not the compiler , maybe the whole tradition had no other 'end to attach to it '  ?  

 

Its an awful lot of work though ... just to 'see dancing girls on a Wednesday '       

Yes ... I mean a Wednesday ?  save it for the weekend surely.

I think the demon thing is possibly ok.  I haven't read it yet but I can see the logic of, if you like solidifying the HGA by addressing the worldly powers.  It makes sense and many parallels in say the Kalachakra tantra and so on.

It's the magic squares that I don't get ... and suggest that this is just ann add on from someone's grimoire. (?) i.e. not directly relevant to the main work.  Although I can see that in magic you do have to test its efficacy or its could all just be subjective mind tricks.

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Moving on to the alternative part 3' of the working ; 

 

''  On them will I impose my will - The Law of light . ''

 

Ooooo ... its so good , here is all of it ; 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!
Loose thou my spirit from the larvæ of the tomb!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.
Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.
These devils by my might to angels I will change.
These nameless horrors I address without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,
Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;
For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

For me its about bringing lower aspects and drives  ( ' that can develop 'personalities' , mini -selves '  , programs , splits or even 'rebellious spirits ') into concert with 'the one'  and not to be in conflict with each other . 

 

( However I am not denying 'outside influence' or 'invasive issues' as well  )  

 

Yep ... maybe.

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Ngondro seems an essential preliminary  ... like the above , but in the above it is also an essential preliminary .

 

So I would not say the whole Abramelin operation is like nogondro ... just part  1 . 

The translation of ngondro as preliminary is a bit misleading.  Perhaps 'foundation practices' might be better.  They are not just something you get out of the way before the heavy lifting starts.  In fact in a lot of ways they are the heavy lifting.  They are a practice in themselves which doesn't really end at completion.  Although I've done the 100,000 of this and that ... I still do them.  The guru or lama is in some respects your actual teacher .. but equally it is your buddha nature and the dharmakaya itself.  The more I think about it the more hermetic the vajrayana seems (though perhaps not as taught these days in the west at least).

I have had as much teaching in dreams and direct inspiration from vajradhara as I have had from my actual teacher (who I have not seen in years).  

Oops

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

William Bloom took months with the Abramelin process.   He told me it was successful but not worth the effort

 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Sacred-Magician-Ceremonial-Diary/dp/0906362180

How can it be both?

I’ve downloaded the Dehn translation (as well as the Mathers) and am reading it slowly.  I used to know someone who did the six month version - although they weren’t very forthcoming about the results.  I get the impression that there is an authentic core … but also quite a lot of dodgy stuff re magic squares for strange purposes.

I was struck by the idea that it is a kind of western ngondro ( which ends with guru yoga which could be compared to the HGA).  Interesting.  
 

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

Who made survival the purpose?

 

No one 

39 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

Is the human race unsuited to progress?

 

How large is your sample?

 

Has evolution bypassed this planet?

 

 

Well certainly things change.  We go through cycles which have peaks and troughs.  So we change all the time.

I’m not sure what ‘ my sample’ is supposed to mean.  Sample of what?

Evolution is not progressive - this is a common mistake - it is adaptive.  There is no progressive development except variety, and selection of adaptations.  It has no purpose at all except survival.

Just now, Lairg said:

Has the human race progressed spiritually in the last few millennia?

 

If so, some of the older texts may be more useful to the late joiners.

 

If not, some of the older texts may be deficient

 

 

Progress is a myth.

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Anyone who can show me at least one of your 9 souls gets a free lollipop. 

Don’t make me facepalm you 😀

1 hour ago, bradley said:

 

indo-european is a proto language, not a people. it is not "western."  otherwise india would be in the west. even if the article hypothesis is correct, which i kinda doubt, it just means that it came from some people who spoke some derivative of indo eu language. sanskrit is indo european, but doesn't mean buhddism has anything to do with western culture. americans speak english, but does not mean the english invented football ( you know, the real football where people smash into each other, not the wimpy one americans call soccer ... just kidding )

Indo-Europeans we’re very butch and manly , they didn’t wear padding and helmets to throw a little ball around a field.

Indo-European:  Hi there!

Chinese: Yo person with a funny hat, how are you.

I.E.: Fine, fine, sorry about that bit of an invasion by the way.

Ch.: That's ok, it's happened before, it'll happen again.

I.E.:  I feel quite assimilated now by the way.

Ch.: So...what you been up to?

I.E.: Well it's strange, I dropped some sticks on the floor this morning and when I looked at the pattern I saw that my heifer will bring forth a piebald calf in the three months.

Ch.: Cool, sounds a bit like the ancient traditions of divination we have going back thousands of years.

I.E.: Well that's nice of you but it's just a pile of yarrow stalks at the end of the day.

Ch.: Well do you mind if I take your method and turn it into the most sublime and sophisticated system of divination ever created by mankind?

I.E.: Not at all, knock yourself out!  I'd help out but I have a burial mound to build.

Ch.:  Cheers then and say hi to the Sky Father for me.

I.E.: Right!  Catch you later Chinese guy.

(sorry sometimes when I've been on DaoBums a while my mind just gets out of control).

22 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

"At the head of the bed is Nephthys and at the foot Isis.  They are both touching a 'shen' symbol." 

"In the case of the lungs its obvious that the breath is involved, Isis the in-breath and Nephthys the out."

 

So our up and down, in and out duo is getting ready to pull the plugs on David Copperfield, after which he will magically change places with ol' foxhead?

No he doesn't become Anubis ... Anubis is the guide - like the master of ceremonies.  He becomes the little bird under the bed ... and flies up to the Eastern sky to look at the sunrise.

This is what is said about seeing the sunrise:

It's completely irrelevant to the topic but relocation of defeated enemies to remote parts of one's empire is not without precedent.  The Persians did it.  So there may have been some ancient 'race' mixing I suppose.  But the I Ching is essentially Chinese whether or not some peoples moved from A to B in 1000BC or whatever.  After all the King James Bible is at the core of the English canon - but of course the Bible comes from the Middle East ... so ... what?

Hello and welcome.