Apech

That's interesting... I never heard it before. In Hermetics what you are speaking about is called 'yearning for perfection'.

 

Would you say that, by and large, most Buddhists worldwide would agree with what you say here? Or would many Buddhists think that the 'suffering' referred to is indeed more of the physical variety?

 

I always thought that the Shakyamuni legends, with their emphasis on his initial protection from scenes of earthly misery, illness and death, followed by that sudden revelation of their existence, were meant to show that said misery, illness and death were the sum of human life on earth and the very definition of 'suffering'. If what you say is true, they could be said to have awakened in him simply a yearning, a feeling that there 'must be something more', which I find far more humane.

 

I must admit, one of the reasons I never investigated Buddhism was this concept of 'suffering', which (as it had been presented to me before) seemed extremely negative to me. I'd be happier if yearning and suffering were identified, but I still prefer the word 'yearning'. 'Suffering' still sounds too negative to me really, but 'yearning for a greater reality', 'the call of the infinite for soul to understand deeply' -- this I do understand.

 

'Things being ultimately unsatisfying' as a reason to practice is not really as motivating as 'finding satisfaction in self-perfection'... but this is just me. In the west (as in Taoism) 'life with a perfectly harmonious flow' is often seen as the goal as well, in other words, the cultivation of earthly destiny is as important as the heavenly one. If what you say is true, then that perspective would harmonize better with Buddhism than I had previously thought -- whereas if 'suffering' really were starvation and pain, this would suggest that earthly life itself has no ultimate meaning, an idea I think is misplaced...

 

Rambling!

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

In Buddhist thought 'suffering' can be 'suffering of suffering' i.e. pain, misery and so on, BUT also suffering arising from the ephemeral nature of things and/or conditionality. The idea is that samsara the cyclic world of sense objects is governed by ignorance, desire and fear/anger. Samsara is illusory in that it is not an adequate understanding of the nature of reality but it is the way the world is seen by most people. This is ignorance. In other words we see the world as space filled with objects which have separate independent existence (i.e. selfhood). By mistakenly seeing things in this way we fall into the idea that if we had more of certain attractive things we would be happy. Thus desire for those things arises. We pursue the things and either a) we get hold of them or b ) we can't get hold of them. Either way we begin to suffer. If we get hold of them, we might get what we desire, but because everything is subject to change + decay, the pleasure we get last only for a certain length of time. As the pleasure fades we begin to get angry, or if we fail to ever to get hold of them we chase angrily after one thing or another. Eventually we end up chasing round and round seeking happiness. If after experiencing this state we set our minds or 'higher' ideals or even gods, which appear to be beyond time, even then if we gain them, we find that they are conditioned, that is not the complete view of reality but some kind of form or structure. Eventually suffering is generated from this conditonality.

So there is suffering of suffering. Suffering of impermanence and suffering of conditionality. As was said above the English word suffering is not quite right for this because during this cycling you might experience pleasure and even joy, but these feelings will be time limited and conditioned and eventually we will realize that they are not satisfactory - they do not satisfy our need for understanding or realization or liberation. This is because the basic view of the world as samsara is mistaken and illusory.

playing in the dirt

micro-organisms new found

renewal could be

renewal could be.

a fresh start for all of us.

green shoots of new hope.

Namaste apepch7,

 

 

Meditation CAN be habitual, and it is very powerful when done this way. This is my personal experience and your milage may vary as always. When I sit down to meditate and think anything about any sort of outcome, this is less productive then just sitting down to meditate like I sit down to eat. This is just my experience but it IS my experience none the less. And yes, TRYING to meditate without the mind is not productive, BUT actually meditating and not clinging to thought is more productive (again in my experience) then allowing yourself to get caught up in mind stories while you are "trying" to meditate.

 

I will look for it. Thank you for the suggestion. Namaste.

 

Love,

Carson

Thanks for your reply.

Just to clarify - when I referred to understanding I did not mean intellectual knowledge but rather an awareness of the nature of mind, being or reality - whichever you like. I still have a problem with 'habit' but I won't split hairs .

Best wishes and good luck in all your work.

Apepch7.

Namaste apepch7 and thanks for the reply!

 

OK. And based on what you say later in this post, I gather your intention in meditation is to "understand" correct? Can you not be disappointed coming out of meditation with this intention if you come away feeling more scattered, confused or restless? This can and does happen (at least occasionally) correct? So wouldn't it be more beneficial to let go of your intentions and just DO meditation like you do something that is habitual and done without any thought whatsoever?

 

 

Well no not really. I feel you may be arguing from a dualist point of view. You will only be disappointed if you go into meditation with an expectation. I don't - so without the kind of goal you suggest I don't get disappointed. I was trying to explain that intent and expectation are not the same thing.

No one, no matter what they say, starts meditating without some intent. Understanding is the first intent but this is not conditional on result. If I come out of meditation more confused or scattered then this is part of the process and will lead to better understanding, since it displays the nature of the mind.

Meditation is not 'habitual' or 'without thought'; as habitual refers to routines and inertic patterns which is not what meditation is about and there is nothing wrong with thought. Trying to meditate without thought is a form of dualism - it is better to look at 'mind-as-is' and understand its nature.

There is a good story in 100,000 songs of Milarepa called "Women's role in Dharma' which deals with this.

Composite animals like Chimera are interesting. Here's a front end view of your Etruscan one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chimera_di_Arezzo.jpg

Yep I will give it a try.

If I understood Apepch7 correctly, the element correspondences that I found in a book is likely to have been hauled in from the world of western alchemy and just thrown in there for flavoring.

 

Interesting about the astrology/direction connection. In "Initiation" Haich talks about the four faces of God that are found in many religions which correspond to the four directions and on top of that the 12 astrology signs represent influences from 12 directions with presumably four of those lining up with the 4 directions. (it's lent out for a few months and I don't remember more than that)

 

Apepch7's: Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, Aquarius could be those four. Their traditional correspondences are

Scorpio-water, Taurus-earth, Leo-fire, Aquarius-Air.

 

I didn't catch which directions Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, and Aquarius are?

 

(hopefully Apepch7 won't tire of this topic! )

Om Yoda,

You have started a cult on the discussion page!

Taurus - North

Scorp. - South

Aquarius - West

Leo - East

in my understanding.

This is from the understanding of the Zodiac as four elements in three phases. The three phases being cardinal, fixed and mutable. The fixed versions being the four compass points. Also the four beasts (bull, eagle, man and lion). For reasons I can't recall Scorpio is transposed into Aquila the Eagle for the purposes. Also the four apostles, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Would have to look up which is which cos I don't do Christian stuff much (!). When I was in Greece the eastern Orthodox iconography used the beasts for the four apostles.

I will use the first one and recycle the second

 

values devalued

trinkets, swag, prizes and bling

gotten in greed- grab!

gotten in greed- grab

garbage heaps of grub gorged grot

garden growing green.

Hi apepch7!

So how do you feel when you sit down to meditate with the intention of understanding and discovering something/yourself and you come away feeling the same as you did going in, or worse? Is it still possible to be satisfied with your "progress"? Would you not be much more happy and content with what IS, if you sat down to meditate with no intentions of ANYTHING, and were just happy to sit in silence for a while? Do you think you gain nothing from sitting to meditate with NO intentions?

 

Just questions.

 

Love,

Carson

I think that intending is not the same as expecting. If I expect to have some kind of experience when I meditate then when it doesn't work out then I may become dissatisfied or disappointed. But this is because I have built up some picture of the goal in my mind which doesn't match the result. However this is not the same as building the intent to meditate. If you practice and you begin to feel the momentum of your practice which has built up over time - a kind of momentum which carries you through rough patches - then this is what I call intent. Silent will, or what ever. The goal of this can be very broad and actually may change over time as your meditation grows deeper and deeper. But to a simple soul like me I begin with understanding (later there is becoming, doing and complete absorption - or however you might want to put it.).

Meditation with no intent is quite an achievement, IMO, and is much more than just not saying to yourself what you are doing. It is more like just pure sitting - if you can do that then bloody good I say! Far from gaining nothing from this - you will gain everything (in a way).

Welcome! No need to worry about posting too much, you're in good company if you do

 

Meditation can mean a lot of things to a lot of people so here's my personal definition:

Being in a state free from holding on to, pushing away, judging, and 'accumulating'.

 

The goal not just having an empty mind but having the right condition (free mind) to experience Truth/Reality with absolutely no conditioning - in all honesty - just to see if it can be done and to see what happens.

Well said!

I think that you inevitably set up intent when you sit to meditate but its best to let that intent to be to understand, to discover and so on. After all why are you meditating anyway?

 

 

South - Imsety - man - water - red bird

North - Hapi - ape - earth - black turtle

East - Duamutef - jackal - fire - blue dragon

West - Quebehsenuef - hawk - air - white tiger

I think correspondences are tricky at the best of times and get harder and harder from culture to culture. Even the Sons of Horus to the elements is difficult. Closest fit is to the four fixed signs of the Zodiac - Scorpio, Taurus, Leo and Aquarius.

Asherah, who became Qedesh in Egypt, is associated with lions, serpents, and the tree of life. Very interesting and controversial deity, but you can read the link.

 

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/lofts/2938/majdei.html#Asherah

Cat, serpent and tree.

This is from Ch. 17 Book of the Dead. Ra in the form of a cat (with rabbit ears!) slays the serpent Apophis before the sacred Ished tree (Sycamore sacred to Nut) so that the sun can rise.

BTW symbolically the sun rise can be taken as the energy rising into the higher centres and becoming visible. The Ished tree is said to be 'split on its side' or split in two and could be taken to stand for the energy body 'split' by energy rising up the central channel.

There is only one copy and i have it.

i can't jusy show it to anyone willy nilly.

i need to know you are serious and worthy.

$1000 should do it.

So ... $1000 or remain in ignorance ... not a hard decision to make, ignorance can be fun with $1000 in your pocket.

If it's a real koan approved by The American Koan Society (TAKS) there is no rational answer

we have to contemplate it until we break through to the one.

Something like that

I need to see the official certificate of registration of this koan with TAKS before I start to contemplate anything. I don't puzzle over any old rubbish you know! I do have standards.

It wasn't meant as such but now that you mention it

I think it is

Best so far - what's the answer?

shout wake up you fools!

Next time you see some bankers

or mortgage brokers.

or mortgage brokers,

whose derivatives have dropped.

Things of no value.

(answered my own haiku - sorry I was bored.)

What is better than the truth

Is that a koan?

The third one from the center.

Now lets get back to my koan.

The answer you gave was lacking in understanding.

 

"What is the everything that is not God."

God is everything but everything is not God.

If you are reading this: "Are you here because of me, or am I here because of you?"

No, Who is on first,

It's Why thats important

If the universe is real

and I am fake

(just moment by moment perception)

then

how do I relate to the world?

No I, no world.

Where do I look to find the origin of the mind?

Compost

 

What belongs to you but is used most by others?

Your name.

Who is writing this?

Thanks Eric and Apepch.

The problem is that if some part of the body requests for attention, and I try to concentrate on the dantien, then attention is split. Or as such it seems, because one cannot really split concentration, can he? So the result is a jumping here and there. And because Taoism is a way of water, or lesser effort, one ends up concentrating on the stronger sensation, doesn't he?

 

Thanks Drew, I'll check the website and maybe I'll give it a try. Did u try it? Is it different from m.chia's instructions? (with which I had a hard time, they just don't work for me).

In most people awareness (or the mind) is already scattered. Learning to settle the mind and concentrate (in an effortless way) is something everyone has to learn. You may find that the feeling in certain parts of the body is quite intense because of previously established patterns, habitual ways of being and perhaps energy blockages. It may be necessary to do something specific to change this (for which you need the guidance of a competent teacher). But otherwise you need to 'set the intent' of settling the mind in a restful and yet aware state on the lower Tan Tien (if that is your practice), notice the various other feelings in the body, thoughts and emotions and so on without following them - and return gently to the object of your focus when you realise that your mind has drifted. I agree with the poster above who suggested the breath as the focus of your meditation as this is the most widely used starting point.

I took the five terminally ill people from the second question and threw them onto the railway line in the first question. After being hit by the train the five people stopped asking for new organs - so I released the healthy guy to get on with the rest of his life - free from guilt. The six people I saved on the railway lines took me out for a drink to celebrate but got upset when I said that having spent the evening with them I was beginning to think I had made a bad decision ... how's that for ungrateful? eh?

Hello,

if I start to keep my attention on the lower tantien, my attention is brought to other parts of the body, namely the throat, where I feel stronger sensations. Actually it is asking for attention. What do you think I should do? Follow the events and wait the sensation to be cleared, or try to build a strong field in the dantien? Please notice that I am at a very early stage.

 

Thank you very much

If you have a teacher then you should go and discuss this with them. If not - it is important to maintain your practice. So if you set out to focus on the lower Tan Tien but get reactions in other parts of the body, then just note those feelings but continue to focus on Lower Tan Tien. Gently move your attention back to the point of concentration. You need to be relaxed but persistent.

The throat centre is important though and you might want to look up exercises specific to it.

That little space after the 'e' and before the question mark

 

What is destroyed when it is named?

Silence.

My dog has Buddha nature but won't come when I clap one hand. Why is this?

From: http://www.kunlunbliss.com/seminars.html

 

Tentative future seminars

 

March 27-29 Dallas, TX

April 3-5 Austin, TX

May 1-3 Brooklyn, NY

May 5-7 Paris, France

May 8-10 Oslo, Norway

May 15-17 Cologne, Germany

May 18-20 Haute Savoie, France

May 22-24 Milan, Italy

May 25-27 Venice, Italy

June 5-6 Los Angeles, CA

 

Er ... haven't you forgotten a certain island off the north coast?!?