Apech

Sounds like you are having good insights into how your mind/being ordinarily works. The inertia of habit and fear is what rules most of our lives. These are recorded and repetitive energy cycles (like small whirlpools) and I think that the more you face them and become aware of them the less they are able to dominate. Of course it is necessary to step out of the cycle and overcome fear at some point.

Trunk,

 

Not a problem and thanks for your support.

 

MH and Zt,

 

The reason of my decision is because people deviate from the real path due to the influence of the ego and delusion; hence there is a lot of bickering, anger, pushing for siddhis, mockery, jokes and all that jazz. This creates a lot of bad karma...and unfortunately we have too much of it in this world.

 

Regards,

 

Gerard

Sorry you feel this way and will miss your contributions. You gave me some help with the liver thing for which I am grateful.

I see the discussions as people working through what is on their minds and although its sometimes boring and painful its still a useful process. I suppose sometimes posting their thoughts on TBs might make people dwell on their delusions - they usually get a response which either has some wisdom or wakes them up a bit. So all to the good.

Hope you come back after a break.

Cheers.

Apech

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jisYcREevf8 http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jisYcREevf8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JEdf7XsV5g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po09lcDxXIA

Why not ask her? You've already connected.

Sad, I think that it is necessary to put the value of life into monetary equations.

 

But that is the reality of things. If preserving a thing has less value than destroying it then it will be destroyed.

 

At least the United States had the forethought to put many of the lands of the nation into the public's hands and created many parks and preserves. (Of course, that was after the Europeans shamed us for what we did to Niagra Falls.)

 

I sure hope no one cuts down the Tree of Life.

What exactly did you do to the Niagara Falls??? Have you turned them off???

Yours European and worried,

Apech

A heightened sense of danger helps. You can avoid a lot of conflict and beatings up physical and mental as well if you see them coming at you.

I'm very quiet about practice these days but I would say the muggles project a lot on you if you have any personal power.

I'm saying this from the point of view of any energy practice not necessarily shamanism.

From the old days ... "To dare, to know, to will, to keep silent."

Still rings true for me.

 

 

I am glad we are in agreement. Had this not been your conclusion we would be obliged to say that the moderators of this board don't possess the necessary scientific background to draw informed conclusions about these matters. Which isn't a stab in the back. Your average American tv journalist can't explain the principle of relativity.

I have an honours degree in Physics from Manchester University (England) if that helps reassure you.

Aha, so now we're getting somewhere...

 

So, perhaps your real problem here is with "barbaric rich white guys" - not ID (which your mind merely projected on them). (I'm guessing you must be a 40-something Baby Boomer?)

 

Of which perhaps you are, or secretly aspire to be, one yourself?

 

Or perhaps your dad is one? And you resent your dad...

 

So then maybe your real beef is with your dad, not "rich white guys?"

 

And perhaps you might resent your dad because he hurt your self-esteem in some way. Made favored another sibling and made you feel inadequate or inferior somehow?

 

So then maybe your beef is not really with your dad, but some aspect of yourself that you don't like?

 

This is not to say that ID is right or wrong, rich white guys are or aren't barbaric or your dad may or may not be a jerk who played favorites...but that ultimately your beef is with yourself, regardless. You only exhibit an overemotional bias against all these other triggers because you associated them with your root problem within yourself. And so resonate with, superconsciously orchestrate and take all these impersonal issues VERY personally.

 

The good news though is that if you were to reintegrate this part of yourself that you had cast off - then you would immediately resolve your emotional bias against all these other tangential issues built upon it. They would no longer be of any personal concern to you and you could then discuss them dispassionately on a purely mental level without getting so emotionally disturbed...

 

It's not about ID, it's about YOU.

 

Good luck with that.

 

Namaste!

Is there a legitimate debate to had about evolution and ID? Yes I think so.

Is there any point in attempting to psycho-analyse another poster and reduce any debate to someone's 'issues'. No I don't think so.

I think the question we should be debating is -

1) Is there anything about evolution theory which conflicts with Taoism (or mysticism generally if you prefer). ????

2) If so does ID solve any of the problems thrown up by this conflict?

My answer to 1) is there might be but this is not because the idea of things evolving is flawed (because that is quite Taoist) but because we place value in mind or consciousness and therefore individual will and decisions.

My answer to 2) is no. Because ID is just Deus ex machina ... it just solves everything by positing a God action (creation) without saying anything about possible mechanisms.

It is not true that all Intelligent Design theories have to invoke a God. It has also been argued that evolution theory does not have an adequate explanation of how evolution works.

 

Here is an example of an Intelligent Design theory which does not have to invoke a God as an explanatory mechanism. Crick, one of the discoverers of DNA, when faced with how complex DNA and the cell really was, instantly recognized that DNA could not have formed by chance or random processes. He knew some sort of design had to be invovled. He theorized that Life on Earth had been seeded by Extra Terrestrials a very long time ago.

Sorry that's not a theory. If its ET then where did they come from? It just puts everything back one step.

If things are designed then there still has to be a mechanism by which it happens.

Intelligent Design theory can and does involve evidence, every bit as much as Evolution theory. The real difference is the paradigm through which the evidence is interpreted.

Not really because there is no understanding of the way in which the ID works - its just God did it - that's it. Its actually a block to understanding.

Many evolutionists have argued that if you take darwinian evolution completely literally, the natural conclusion is to rule out free will. From a completely materialistic point of view, the actions an individual takes can be attributed to 2 things, genetic programming and societal conditioning. Some people call this theory nature vs. nurture.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=vuVSIG265b4

 

So I agree with you that when it comes to an understanding of mind and comnsciousness in relation to existence and creation, evolution and modern science itself, are lacking in this respect.

Its not that they are lacking exactly its more that adequate theories have not been developed. Some of this is because some scientists prefer to rule out consciousness from the equation because it involves difficult philosophical problems. HOWEVER this does not debunk evolution theory it merely points to more sophisticated understanding in the future ... just as current understanding goes beyond that of 19 Century science.

Throwing out evolutionary theory and replacing it with ID or any approach that involves beliefs rather than evidence and knowledge just will not wash and is actually a way of preventing proper understanding.

Oh, feel sure that if I have further awakenings, awarenesses, or evolved thoughts I will immediately share them with all my friends here.

 

Hey, afterall, what I realize might be only a delusion and by sharing someone would bring this to my attention.

 

The evolution of thought! What an interesting concept.

 

Would that look a little like a tree in growth?

 

Funny. We can't go back and make the tree grow differently. All we can do is help it grow further. (But too much fertilizer will kill it.)

Maybe like a tree. More and more subtle like the branches and new leaves, more and more profound like the roots.

If there is one criticism of the biologists it is that they do become narrow minded and although science is supposed to be based on pure empiricism they refute ideas that don't fit too easily. That's why new scientific theories have such a hard time initially until they become accepted.

Evolution makes logical and intuitive sense to me and is in no way anti-spiritual (unless you have a naive concept of spirit/God whatever). But what it lacks is a theory of consciousness. Where does that come in and how does will or decision making by individuals play a part.

I am absolutely sure that in the future this area of science will give us all a few surprises - and look forward to them. I don't want a harsh monolithic orthodoxy, I want open, inspiring and startling truth. And I mean this from both sides, science and religion.

Excellent point.

"The god of the cannibals will be a cannibal, of the crusaders a crusader, and of the merchants a merchant." Ralph Waldo Emerson

Then my God is a TaoBum.

I'm surprised that I have not posted to this thread.

 

But then, Y'all know my thoughts on the subject so what value would there be in my saying anything?

Your thoughts might have evolved???

Oh rats, now I wanna know the answers to both of those questions, dammit

 

Oh wait, we have Google, phew :-)

 

- Who won the superbowl in 1976: Pittsburgh Steelers 21. Loser: Dallas Cowboys 17.

- Capital of Estonia: Tallinn

 

Apech, are you referring to the actual "things" - as in the entity designated as "Pittsburgh Steelers" during that game or what we're saying about "things" ? Just because we say that team was the "Pittsburgh Steelers" in 1976, doesn't mean that's what they were prior, nor following that match. And don't get me started on the quality of the pitch (sorry, soccer reference) nor the weather, nor the supporters. Were they also part of the winning or the losing team? As a digression, I find it interesting that we have "fun" (and multi-millions) with "win-lose" team sports. Seems pretty silly to me. As does my post

 

IMO, "Psychological Maturity" is a weird one. It seems to me to have a lot to do with social expectations as well. I'm not very sure, really. Reminds me of that article Cat linked to about religious precepts. So I guess somewhere there's a premise of what a "mature" person is in psychological terms. I wonder that now that we have neuroscience if that will change or if we'll just argue the social/moral premises from neurological observations (referring to "fun" Aussie vid in Non's depressing thread).

You Win. I think. Life is a game of two halves. In Estonia.

In that higher consciousness you have no preferences, there is no good or bad, right or wrong, everything is united and whole. Take that consciousness into the market place full time and you probably wouldn't survive a week, you need dualistic ego to survive.

I know what you mean but I don't quite agree. Its an intermediate stage to have higher and lower consciousnesses. Ultimately they are non-dual. The high mind and the ow mind are one. I mean this in a functional way as well as a pure way. The real master would be the best in the market place.

*** Mod Message ***

After careful consideration Bodyoflight has been suspended for 7 days so that he can think about forum rules. This has been done reluctantly after several warnings.

He and everybody else has the option to report posts which he finds offensive or otherwise unacceptable and the moderation team will look at every report in detail.

As this is not really Taoist Discussion I'm moving it to Off Topic.

Thanks.

Apech for Mod Team

**** Mod Message ****

I will only disagree with one thing you said - "of course I'm not enlightened"

You'll have to convince me of that one...

Nothing easier ... if we met you'd know straight away.

sounds good to me. the interesting thing when that state happens, my physical body becomes paralyzed and can not move. So in the ordinary reality my body is vulnerable. The first time it happened to me I was riding in a high speed peformance car in the middle of the night. I was not the driver. It more scared the Shite out of me than anything because I felt so incredibly vulnerable. I had not long term perspective to put it in context because this was all sudden, new, and spontaneous.

 

my consciousness wasn't lost, just an expanded infinite upgrade. the connection to my meat suit was lost.

 

 

hmmm...more questions to ponder on the couch with the kittehs

"Put Buddha in the driving seat" ... would make a great car sticker ....

And how would we know that? And to what degree? How would someone behave in that state? Like Ramana, Osho, Sailor Bob, Gurdjieff, Adyanshanti, Krshnamurti (K or UG?), Einstein, Watts? A homeless person sitting in the gutter with a smile on her face?

If someone told us that they were in that state would we truly believe them? How to know? How to measure?

 

Only one way - do the work ourselves. Day in, day out, live in awareness. See everything as if with the eyes of a newborn.

Let go of all preconceptions and biases.

 

Is that possible?

 

Only one way to find out.

Start now.

Hi Steve,

I was basing my statement on the idea that enlightenment means consciousness knowing its own nature ... or similar words of your choice and that this is a permanent state. But I did say 'I Think' to show its just my view ... of course I'm not enlightened and so I am just talking about ideas about enlightenment ... as you say only one way to find out ...

there was a period of of time when my kundalini was coursing through my body that I had momentary periods of omniscience:

 

I could see every being in the universe, and hear their thoughts all at once and understood what they were thinking. Now that was an awesome siddhi. No, it was very temporary and sporadic.

 

did that mean I was enlightened? probably, mostly like not because I was so poor then that I would have desires of picking winning lottery numbers during this time.

 

my physical needs for food and shelter were certainly more at the forefront then that working for a lofty spiritual attainment.

Probably an enlightened state Shaktimama - but real enlightenment is permanent in that the consciousness is not lost (I think). My previous comment was based on the fact that I know that Buddhists use the term omniscience in a specific and technical way.

You stop that!!! Hehehe. There is fullness in all forms!

 

The Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery.

Marbles,

Hey ... it was a link to a bUddhist website. Vajrayana would say that 'all phenomena are pure beyond elaboration' is that good enough. The Manifest and the Mystery are 'not-two'.

A.

oh my....just to stir the pot some more...

In the earliest accounts, Buddha achieved enlightenment by gaining the three types of knowledge: complete knowledge of all his own past lives, of the karma and rebirths of all others, and the Four Noble Truths. Later accounts explain that, with enlightenment, he achieved omniscience.

 

http://www.berzinarc...uni_buddha.html

 

Omniscience. That's a new one for me that I have never heard of omniscience as a quality of enlightenment. So...hmmmm...does that mean then there are qualities or levels of enlightenment.

 

aaagh

 

*pulling her feet up underneath her, with her book and her kittehs, pondering upon the couch*

I think omniscience here is being used in a specific way to mean being able to see through to the reality behind all things. Specifically being able to see the emptiness of all forms. It is not omniscience in the sense of knowing everything such as who won the superbowl in 1976 or what is the capital of Estonia or whatever.

first of all, i feel no affinity with indian women..

 

secondly, i am settling down in a rather remote province with a small population..

 

so your graph clearly doesn't matter..

OK. Have you been there already?

 

 

i imagine myself living a stress-free life from now on.. free of women.. free of screaming kids.. free of the stress of work ..

 

no worry.. no stress.. just pure meditative peace..

 

damn .. life is good..

Which part of India do you imagine is free of women and screaming kids? Population graph below, not sure what percentage are women or children but its a lot!

?