Apech

apepch7,

 

Sure. Here is an example:

 

"The waters in the human body are these: the four seas, the five lakes, the nine rivers, and the three islands. These are some of the names that have been given to them: hua-chih (Radiant Pool), yao-chih (Green Pool), feng-chih (Phoenix Pool, t'ien-chih (Celestial Pool), yu-chih (Jade Pool), k'un-chih (Pool of the K'un-lun Mountains)...." (page 65 in Tao of Health, Longevity and Immortality)

 

Etc.

OK that could be called obscure ... but are you saying a) deliberately codified in poetic imagery, or b ) deliberately wrong in some way - mistakes put in to stop the reader working out the secret?

Not the same thing of course - some things are almost impossible to describe in literal language.

There's still much to learn, much to compare with your own practice, and much that makes you see how your practice is incomplete.

 

Really, read the books (especially Eva Wong's) if you're interested in Taoist alchemy, and you can see for yourself.

Scotty,

Could you give an example of the sort of thing you mean.

Most of what you have reflected here is very sound A7. You have this unassuming knack for creating posts that makes plenty of sense

To paraphrase Winston Churchill - I have a lot to be unassuming about (haha).

Was just pondering a bit.... I think watching the process ought to be simply that - to watch how things arise and subside without resorting to analysis. I am just wondering if by asking how/why things happen would in some way obscure the mere act of mindful attention to what is in the present? Since everything is energy, as you say, perhaps it would be quite futile then to investigate the nuts and bolts of the process cos that sometimes make things more solid than they actually are. In Tantrayana, its taught that the moment arisings are seen and recognized to be without solidity, these arisings, as mind-winds, whatever form or shape they take, are instantly pacified and let go of right at the moment of noticing the mind's empty nature.

I agree about the nuts and bolts investigation. Its hard enough getting to know anything about one's own responses and if this is about other people you can't possibly know the causes and processes - you just don't have that kind of information. I see it more like negotiating a terrain. Just as when you go for a ramble in the countryside you learn to climb hills, cross streams and so on - you don't ask why is there a hill, how did it come to be (unless you are a geologist I suppose but that's different). So I think when you go into situations - say if you work in an office, then you will be very conscious of the atmosphere, the tensions, the relationships - you just have to find your way around without either falling on your face or being dragged into the mire .... So yes - avoid the over analysis ... and in particular anything that does draw you in - well its your hook probably ....

It takes practice, but when distilled into habit, it can be intuited spontaneously that all what we call the world is essentially nothing but changing moments arising and ceasing by themselves. On a deeper level, actually there aren't even changing moments, but simply subtle winds stoking the mind that give rise to what we then perceive as 'Changing Moments'. Our mental involvement in trying to analyze the process may only serve to temporarily halt/hinder the luminous display of all that is. Its as if the moment we decide to think of something, then that very decision turns the mind outwards, giving rise immediately to reflections of past/future, or to put it another way, mind is born when thoughts arise.

'subtle winds stroking the mind' - I like that. I might see something like that alone on a mountain but in rush hour traffic or in the middle of a blazing row??? I think we need useful praxises (praxi? praxes? ... whatever) to deal with the world.

Am thinking... Is there mind when/if at each moment we allow discursive thoughts to simply come and go without latching on to them and creating 'stories' from their self-generating energetic displays? The masters seem to point to 'No Mind' - and i am really interested to fully grasp what this means.

 

Your thoughts?

 

(I might have misunderstood that particular aspect of your post, and if thats so, please excuse this gibberish that have been written.)

 

Have a good day A7.

Yes again ... I agree no-mind ... 'I don't mind if you no mind'

But I guess all I would say is that when even Buddhas and Bodhisattvas come to teach ignorant fools like me ... then they have to be able to empathize with my perspective. So I think they have two eyes - a transcendent one and a relative one - so when I say I'm worried about whatever they don't piss themselves laughing at my stupidity they can actually bend down to help me. It's like 'in the world but not of the world' - whoever said that???

Maybe I didn't get you ... but its a nice conversation.

It's not like I "don't like this" per se, it's not like I'd want to get rid of it. I mean, this sensitivity is exactly what I've been training for, and now, rather than visualizing or having a strong intent to feel something, I'm actually feeling it AS it happens, which is great.

 

 

This is good.

I would say that what you are feeling is an inevitable consequence of cultivation and it won't go away. Its a difficult problem I think and while some of it goes back to your own stage of development or spiritual maturity the fact is that the world is full of people who are not cultivators and continually splurge their feelings and neuroses all over everyone else.

I think the real reason people become hermits is because at certain times they need the space to work on themselves with out the interference ... this is why Milarepa kept moving to higher caves until he was ready to teach. But that's kind of extreme and he was engaged in a very fast track system.

I don't have an off the shelf answer just a few points from my experience. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - you have to watch the process all the time, observe how it happens, when it is strongest and so on. Track it so you know its routines and spare yourself the worst if your own energy is low. You have to deal with everything as energy (for want of a better word) - feelings of others are just energy no matter what the form - awareness can transform them ... as in 'consciousness is the catalyst' ... i.e. something that facilitates a process without actually taking part. And lastly understand that the ground of a certain way of working is this environment ... its like a terrain which can get to know, understand and negotiate ... through this develop real compassion for others.

Hope this makes some kind of sense.

lowly junk, priceless

sorting through the day ahead

the time is priceless

the time is priceless

while gravity cost a lot

its value's falling.

Condolences ... so very sad.

HI,

Before I go on I must point out I am not an expert in this.

From experience I have observed that a lot of people become interested in sex/qi and so on ... in fact its probably the sex part that sparks the initial interest ()... but they try to control or sublimate the energy somehow in a rather unholistic way. What I mean is they think that just somehow putting the batteries on a high voltage charger is somehow going to sort everything out ... give them powers or whatever. Its a bit like trying to tie a knot in your willy so nothing can leak out and thinking your going to be happy and healthy IMO.

IMO people should not be celibate to become spiritual ... they may become celibate because they are spiritual (but that's different).

I think that non-ejaculatory orgasms is a good aspiration BTW its just that you have to approach it holistically ... the redirected energy is going to excite higher centers ... heart and head ... your emotions and thoughts will be changed ... so you have to work at refining the whole of your being from day one.

If you learn to concentrate ... and by that I mean rest your mind without effort (not furrowed brow stuff) ... and then observe your body's response to sexual excitement ... follow the feeling inward ... to its root ... the feeling changes radically so that you can approach a different kind of orgasm. So I would start with lots of sitting meditation during which time you moderate but do not stop your sexual activity (not while you are sitting but in life ). Learn to experience your body as a zone of feeling and not a physical object. Feel rather than think or visualize. Look at the feelings as they are without trying to change or judge them. Follow the feelings to their essential core and see where that leads you. Experiment and learn your own way.

That's it.

night iris, blooming

in night sky, starlight spangles

dew drops on petals

dew drops on petals

when the morning is earth moist

oh so gentle sun.

Anton Temple - Becoming the Lotus

 

I thought this because you said "year long gong", the book says one could achieve the full lotus pose, through practicing the exercises in it, in one year.

Ah thanks - might buy it - looks good.

I posted this link previously. Just want to share again.

 

Basic instructions to reach full lotus, aka padmasana

 

I've been doing these ... soon I will have a body like hers ... well not exactly ...

Tips to loosen your hip flexors

 

 

Thanks - those lunges will be the death of me!

Are you following Temple's book?

 

Curiously my right hip is also blocked. In one of the youtube videos (or comments on them) someone said that usually the reason for one hip being more flexible than the other is sitting on the chair with crossed legs a lot, with one leg on top more than the other. For myself though I'm not sure if it's not an injury from basketball, I once fell on my hip, perhaps something moved.

No, which book is that (I should probably know but I'll ask anyway).

I think my right hip is probably an old old problem. When I was 11 I broke my thigh bone and was in traction for 6-8 weeks. I don't think it was set with proper alignment and so I have had knee and hip probs on that side since. Also I used to do Aikido and I had a tendency to stress the right side too much which ended up in a bad knee problem which has not gone away.

Well been doing stretches for a few days now and my posture is improving but have realised that my problem is not so much my dodgy knee or my fused L5 but my right hip which lacks flexibility. It feels oddly like its too strong if you see what I mean. Any good stretches for hips?

Nowhere near full lotus BTW can't get my right knee on the floor but its not brushing against my ear any more (ha ha).

The year long gong continues!!!

yea no there aren't any women that care to be in my presence so that isn't an option. any new ones too. in fact it's all predetermined it seems that they all will avoid me for some reason like I'm unfit for anything, for any feminine presence. not even Goddess.

Clearly I don't know you or your circumstances but these things are like a feedback loop. Its all about feeling ... if you feel good about yourself then people will tend to feel good about you ... ( I know this sounds like a cliche but its true).

 

 

I am still somehow caught up with the inherently taoist principle that there are many (different) ways leading to the tao. But, I guess, in the light of what you said we need to consider that there can be many forms of enlightenment even if there is only one tao. I find this interesting and good food for thought.

If enlightenment = realizing the true nature of reality ... then how can there be more than one form of enlightenment?

This is just a question BTW

I wasn't aware I was using a "new age" term.

 

Apech, come back with the difference between "awareness" and "consciousness" again? Please, i can't splain it as well as you can

 

 

hello

I just go to the etymology of these words ...

consciousness = 'with' 'knowing' ... that which allows knowing to occur ... maybe?

awareness = similar to consciousness but with the sense of alertness for danger ... think of the word 'wary' which has the same root.

universe = Lat. 'one' 'turn' meaning everything within the cycle of existence.

so universal consciousness would mean something like that which is everywhere and allows everything to be known. If you were religious you would mean the omniscience of God ... I think this may be Tao as mother of the ten thousand things - better ask a proper Tao scholar.

 

Loneliness is probably a factor, especially the type that isn't sexual at all, but still craves a feminine presence... as too much male presence is not good for me as it already has been. But I'm always in a state of lack, and since I'm in a state of lack, to seek it would only put a temporary cap on it, but the explosion is still waiting underneath and ends up never really doing anything because I'll just get more lack.

 

 

If you look at male and female as pure polarities (like + and - electric charge) as distinct to human genders, then we are all a ratio or proportion male and female. If you crave a feminine presence then your body is telling you that it wants to balance. Because you are slightly out of balance - especially if you feel unhappy. The best thing, since bodies are very wise, is to give it what it feels it needs. It would be theoretically possible to achieve this balance with inner alchemy but quite difficult. I think you need to go and be in the presence of women that you like. I don't mean sex - I mean genuine warmth, conversation and so on.

If you want kundalini arousal and so on - then the world can be a great teacher. If you interact with it with the right heart + spirit then it can provide a kind of wholeness in practice that is difficult in isolation.

These are my thoughts on reading your posts. Do with them as you see fit.

...

congratulations

Hi apepch7,

 

I guess that you are saying that there can be no immortality except within eternity?

 

But how would that correspond to the taoist concept that everything comes from one, only to eventually return to one? (doesn't that defeat the concept of eternity?)

Depends what you mean by eternal ... there's two versions. Eternal as in a infinitely long period of time ... or eternity as in stepping out of time in an instant ... to quote William Blake:

To see a world in a Grain of Sand,

And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,

Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand,

And eternity in an hour.

If immortal means a physical body that never dies - I don't believe in that because all physical things are subject to entropy ... eventually they decompose ... its natural and in accordance with Tao.

 

I can't speak about the gods, I don't know any.

I know a few so I'll put in a word for you. I'm not telling what I'll say though.

 

 

So yes, my understanding is that immortality is not a physical or even a spiritual thing but more at the lasting memory of a person after they have passed on. So, in my mind both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu are immortals because they (their wisdom) still lives in my (and many others) mind.

That's not really immortality unless the minds in which they live go on forever. But it is a common belief - indeed there is an Ancient Egyptian story called "The Shipwrecked Sailor" where the hero of the story who has been marooned on an island and is saved by a god in the form of a huge serpent, asks the serpent what he can do for him .... the god says "make my name remembered" ... so even the gods care about this... being remembered for ever. And since people still read and study the story I suppose it has worked.

To me immortality is about relating to that which is eternal. In any non-dualist system there is the individual and the infinite, like the atman and the brahman - if you realise that these two are not different then in a sense you become as immortal as the absolute ...

Guys, all this is gonna be really confusing for Christoff..lets try to create some agreeable order in our advice to him, he is having a really hard time.

 

Do we all agree on wuji standing (first position in the youtube series i posted the link for)?

 

Do we agree he needs to eat more?

 

Do we agree on some moderate exercise? if so what kind?

 

Do we agree about tcm tonics? if so what kind?

 

Do we agree he needs some faith in a higher power? Tao, God, universal mind, which he can connect to through thought and heart to give him strength and inspiration to carry on striving?

 

peace

Ed

Developing faith is a long term thing - you can't just do it if you don't currently have faith. Just think about balance and well being.

Tonics? etc. why not go back to the 'good Chinese doctor'?

Should see a western doctor if worried about health.

Focus on low weight may be wrong - different people have different optimum weight/metabolism.

Moderate exercise always a good idea - for everyone.

Wuji or sitting formless meditation sounds good (cos it is for everyone).

Is it too late? No don't be silly. You are just compounding your worries. I wouldn't even worry that much about nocturnal emission (at 30) ... its not great and shows an imbalance but you are not alone - most people are in some kind of bad way these days (or a lot anyway).

You have a son and therefore plenty to live for. I think you should give yourself some treats - things you like - reward yourself a little.

Also talk to someone.

Cheers

John

I was about to comment ... but no ... sorry ... I've got nothing

That makes you flawless!

To know you don't know is best.

Not to know you don't know is a flaw.

Therefore, the Sage's not being flawed

Stems from his recognizing a flaw as a flaw.

Therefore, he is flawless.

 

Can you post me the link to this chapter?

 

Taoistic Greetz,

3deedit

 

It's chapter 71 of TTC.

 

The 22 metus is fascinating. Do you know the era, when the 22 metus was mentioned?

 

It is usually 12 channels on both sides in acupuncture theory. But in earliest surviving moxibustion texts there are 11 channels on both sides.

 

Have you found any maps of these metus? They would be extremely interesting to see. It is possible that these metus can correspond to the meridian system or just some part of it. Nadis of hindu seems to have correspondences to the meridian system. They travel first one channel and then continue using luo-channels, different meridians muscle-channels. A nadi is not one-to-one representation of a single meridian. It is possible that Egyptians also mapped the channels and recorded the ones they thought most important.

 

So if you have more detailed information about courses of metu or pictures about them I might be able to help you in comparing these two systems.

Hi Mibale,

Thanks for that incredibly helpful reply.

The source of the metu info comes from two papyri - the Ebers Papyrus dated to 1534 BC and Edwin Smith Papyrus 1550 BC - there are also some older ones going back to about 1800 BC. However it is fairly certain that this knowledge is copied from older complete works which have been lost in antiquity. I would say from the knowledge of Egyptian Religion that the main period of formulation would have been in the Old Kingdom (2686 - 2181 BC). Also the Egyptologists say that many parts of the Edwin Smith were first written in this period - also at least half of the known doctors that have been named are from this period ... this is the pyramid building age. This is also the time that the Egyptians started to write down what they knew. The actual knowledge is probably far older of course.

Because we do not have the main books of the Egyptians there are no maps or diagrams of the metu. I am sure they existed but they have been lost for centuries - prob since the burning the library at Alexandria.

My approach in studying all this is to take what is known factually as a base and then use intuition/insight or comparison to other systems to make predictions which can be verified in some way. The problem for most main stream Egyptologists is that they probably don't know about the meridians and also probably wouldn't find them credible if they did because they do not practice cultivation.

As regards the 'ending' of the metu in the anus - I am wondering about the muladhara chakra ... or perhaps the perineum is meant. Maybe when they say 'end' - and I'll have to check the actual word but maybe this is seen as a nexus point like the heart.

Anyway - any more thoughts would be great.

Cheers

John