Apech

The challenge, I believe, in translations of "nothingness", "origin", "beingness", and "mother", is that they can erroneously lead the mind in the direction of conceptualizing and abstracting these names. But this is exactly what Laozi is warning us against.

 

Because of this I have made a very deliberate effort to render a translation that counters the mind's desire to create things to cling to.

 

Yes I completely agree. In fact in this is the answer to all Vaj's critique of Taoism as monist (whatever). This first section is very beautifully constructed so as to express non-duality by 'bouncing' the mind between dualistic concepts in such a way that they can never take hold and become definite 'things'.

The difference is that Buddhism starts by analysing phenomena and reaches the conclusion that no thing has a self. While Taoism starts by talking about the non-dual absolute and saying that it cannot be expressed in words. This also differentiates from the Vedic Pure Objectless Consciousness because the Tao is both the named and the nameless and neither. Objectless-ness is not an issue.

 

...<snip>

 

I came here seeking advice on how to progress further safely and healthily. Any advice would be appreciated.

You have to understand that it is hard to give advice on here without background and details - I got the impression that you had just started to do the breathing exercises. If you have done a lot of Qi Gong then presumably you have a good understanding about the channels and orbit.

There are a lot of experienced practitioners on here - so hopefully further advice will come soon.

Well I agree with Scotty ... so suggest don't do any energy practices without guidance ... especially forced stuff.

Take it easy ... you could just sit and watch breaths ... you need to do this first anyway ...

Do we have to be one or the other? Why try and fit an irregular peg in a square, round or triangular hole? We all have a common interest in Tao, or similar, why not leave it at that?

Exactly - just the way the polls work really.

Be careful - do you have a teacher? You should ask them.

Otherwise - how relaxed are you - it is very easy to get energy stuck in the head. Are the headaches migraine type i.e. light in eyes and so on?

Energy going down front is different feel to energy up back. Its more a question of letting it flow down without any effort at all.

I sometimes use a visualization of roots growing into the earth from soles of feet. Each time you breath out the roots grow deeper and deeper until they reach the center of the earth where there is a pool of cool dark water. When the roots reach this then just let all the energy flow down into the water - like an earth wire. Could try this.

Otherwise see a Doctor if headaches don't go away - just in case.

No problem!

 

Hey... my wife loves the looks of your cat, she wants to steel it. Where do you live again?

Hands off my pussy!

The view originates the insight. This is what the Buddha taught.

 

Now I will say for your own sake that it does seem that many Taoists do hold to the "right view" which will originate the right experiential insights... it seems.

 

It does seem that you do have some "right view" flowing through your synaptic fire works.

Gee thanks.

Yeah, basically... the vast majority are damned to be re-absorbed during the cosmic pralaya, even if they do make it to a high heaven, and yes, it has everything to do with the view expressed based upon experiential investigation into the nature of things.

 

 

No, I do not sound like a Christian because I'm not saying you are all damned to hell for eternity to get poked by the devil in the butt by a pitch fork for what sins you've committed in this lifetime, no... What I'm saying is far more complex and not nearly as black and white as that, so please don't associate me with that.

 

You can agree to disagree, but to get your panties in a bunch and start associating me with the most violent religion on the planet is just wrong.

 

 

 

According to the Buddha, it's "view" that is the first thing to get "right" which means philosophically first, then through experiential self experimentation into direct insight, all based upon the basis of "right view."

 

So yes, philosophy is very important. Otherwise one might think that not thinking is enlightenment.

know what time it is

within a haiku, a moment

captured, unfolding

captured, unfolding

the emerging butterfly

is cupped in my hand.

 

It's always fraught with danger when we try and make one body of work "fit" another. Does the Daodejing have correlations with the Yijing? Some folks believe so, I personally don't know one way or the other. It's safe to say that Laozi was conversant with the Yijing -- some say he was the court diviner before he rode off to the west. But whether he directly wove yijing principles into his work is unknown to me ... I would love to be otherwise educated however

 

 

You are right about the danger of course Stig but I wasn't doing what you suggest i.e. fitting one body on another - although I understand why you think I was.

I don't want to derail your thread with this but I just wanted to make this point. Cultures generally have what you might call a cosmological view on how the universe is constructed. It is this to which both the I Ching and Lao Tse refer when they make statements about the nature of things. It does not mean that one work derives or depends on the other.

 

But, with your understanding as it is, you will also be re-absorbed at prayala (crunch) time into this infinite consciousness samadhi. I will not. Liberation really is in the details.

Oh gee Vaj are we all damned? I'm not sure that our salvation or enlightenment depends that much on our philosophical view. You are right, in my view, to distinguish between the Buddhist view and the Vedanta view - they are different - well if they were the same why would we have two systems and not one? But I am not sure that the consequences of either view are as you suggest. You sound a little, if I may say, like a born again Xstian at this point ... "Only I will be saved!" etc.

Is it just me, or does it appear that we're headed for one world economy?

They definitely want global economic regulation - they said so after the credit crunch in 2008 - that is the sub-text of all that is going on with the G20, the Eurozone, the Dollar and the emerging countries.

Hi Stig,

I've just been rereading Lynns translation with Wang Bi commentary - this is the book I studied all summer This one.

Anyway I think I am wrong now - because Wang Bi apparently had access to a version (Mawangdui A. and B.) which is translated thus:

Nameless, it is the origin of the myriad things; named, it is the mother of the myriad things.

So instead of having 'heaven and earth' and 'myriad things' it just repeats 'myriad things'. So the distinction is lost but not the meaning. The distinction is then between 'origin' and 'mother'.

But I can still reconstruct what I was thinking from this.

I am seeing Heaven as a field of pure yang - that is a luminous infinity whose light gives order. And I am seeing Earth as being the receptive (dark) substance that gives and sustains life - pure yin. The Tao then as origin is Heavenly and as 'mother' is Earthly. This is the underlying structure of the universe - but it is not the empirically observed universe because we do not perceive pure energy or pure substance we perceive mixtures or interactions >>> the 10k things.

So referring to the Great Treatise (I am reading Wilhelms translation) the Earlier Heaven arrangement of the Trigrams places Ch'ien (the creative) opposite K'un (the receptive). This is saying that the primordial nature of the Tao is expressed like this - it appears both at once as an infinite field of light energy (Heaven) and the infinite substantial field of power which underpins all existence (Earth). (The other trigrams express other qualities but it would get too complicated to go into these.)

The Earlier Heaven arrangement expresses the primordial nature and is thus 'unknowable' in the ordinary sense - while the later heaven arrangement is more experiential - which is why fire opposed water rather than heaven and earth.

Now it is said that the origin and the mother arise together. That is there is no origin until there is a mother and visa versa ( a chicken and egg thing!?!).

So we could say that because the Tao has this unknown/unknowable aspect (its true name cannot be spoken) it can be viewed as an origin - and because it allows/facilitates knowing/naming it is also a mother.

I hadn't thought of the Hexagrams but if you look at those formed from Ch'ien and K'un they are 11. Peace and 12. Stagnation - in one the creative and the receptive come together in union = peace and in the other they move apart = stagnation (or perhaps barreness or non-productivity).

Forgive the ramble (it makes sense to me!!! ha ha).

I think I am right then I think it means Heaven and Earth in the I Ching sense of the trigrams.

We're not very gay are we.

Hi Manitou,

 

Yeah, I think that most of us in the West have been through what you have described. In fact, many of the Eastern peoples are getting that way nowadays, I think.

 

It sure takes a long time to learn how to just relax. Funny sometimes, you know.

Hi Marblehead and Manitou,

A great message and I can really relate to those personal comments. It is my impression that the world is getting faster and faster and people more and more busy. Its as if they are desperate to rush from one distraction to the next. Today in the UK they have announced the royal wedding of what's-his-name to his girlfriend. The News channels have gone hyperactive - I am sure there will be some spill over to the other side of the Atlantic. There will be months and months of endless nonsense and speculation ... this sums up the modern world to me.

Yours gloomily,

Apech

 

(on the Tricycle haiku corner, I read that the 5-7-5 formula doesn't translate directly into English- I didn't follow the logic exactly, but on that site they were willing to consider other combinations. Myself, I kinda like the 5-7-5...)

I agree its neater to stick to the form - even though it gets a bit tricky ... if we abandon it ... we might as well have a free-form poetry thread (which would be ok but this one should stick to 5,7,5 IMO).

You say just to be happy - as if this were an easy thing or a low ambition - I think finding true happiness is a very profound and sometimes difficult thing - an achievement in itself. I'm mean happiness and not just pleasure seeking by the way.

Some would suggest the point of life is to seek liberation but this to me presupposes that you feel the need to be released from prison somehow.

Others might say it is to do with gaining wisdom or power.

I would say the purest expression of the purpose of life is that it is an opportunity to explore the possibilities inherent in being. These are infinite I believe and are like a vast undiscovered country full of opportunity. To go there you have to drop the small minded view based on greed, jealousy and hate.

 

 

The unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception;

The known begets the many separate things.

 

??

I think this may be something to do with the English language as it is forcing 'the unknown' into being a thing. As if there is something called 'the unknown' which gives rise to heaven and earth. Perhaps nameless is better after all?

I know what I want to say about this but its difficult to express - I am going to think and post later.

Cheers

A.

Squirrels and bluejays

 

Add some salt

 

It becomes a tasty meal

You haven't got this Haiku thing sussed have you.

flapjacks for buddha

and his entourage- mostly

squirrels and bluejays

squirrels and bluejays,

who says nature's under threat?

two animals left.

Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai

 

Good movie about a inner city hit man who lives the Bushido, Code of the Samurai.

 

Yes! My favourite movie along with Kurasawa's Seven Samurai.

I liked David Carridine as well ... also The Water Margin ... and Monkey Magic.