Apech

23 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Mhe ......

 

your poem was better .

sorry I’m still not kissing you

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

I went through all of those youth novels, Harry Potter, Twilight (couldn't make up my mind between team Edward or Jacob), Hunger Games. 

I thought Hunger Games was a bit of a Battle Royale rip off - but the first film was ok and M. Wouldn’t let me watch any of the others.

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

‘First think of the person who lives in disguise,
Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies.
Next, tell me what’s always the last thing to mend,
The middle of middle and end of the end?
And finally give me the sound often heard
During the search for a hard-to-find word.
Now string them together, and answer me this,
Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?

 

-- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire

 

@Apech  What was it I -- and a gazillion others -- liked so much about Harry Potter?  It´s one of the world´s greatest mysteries, right up there with the popularity of Mantak Chia.

I read the first two books in the 90’s cos my daughter - who never read books was obsessed with Harry Potter.  I must admit I thought they were very derivative and poorly written.  I have never watched any of the films.

 

 

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

‘First think of the person who lives in disguise,
Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies.
Next, tell me what’s always the last thing to mend,
The middle of middle and end of the end?
And finally give me the sound often heard
During the search for a hard-to-find word.
Now string them together, and answer me this,
Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?

 

-- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire

The answer is Nungali - I’m not kissing him!

55 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I prefer her over Lord Byron.

 

(Just kidding.  I haven´t read Lord Byron.)

 

She walks in beauty, like the night

Of cloudless climes and starry skies;

And all that’s best of dark and bright

Meet in her aspect and her eyes;

Thus mellowed to that tender light

Which heaven to gaudy day denies.

 

One shade the more, one ray the less,

Had half impaired the nameless grace

Which waves in every raven tress,

Or softly lightens o’er her face;

Where thoughts serenely sweet express,

How pure, how dear their dwelling-place.

 

And on that cheek, and o’er that brow,

So soft, so calm, yet eloquent,

The smiles that win, the tints that glow,

But tell of days in goodness spent,

A mind at peace with all below,

A heart whose love is innocent!

 

 

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

What is up with this semen obsession? lol

 

Also (and I could be wrong, but I'm not) I think, thinking and seeking literal super powers is more of a young man fantasy. 

what is up with sticking pins in people? 😀

 

super powers is def a bloke thing.

 

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I don´t know but I´ll throw out a theory.  Could it be that women generally prefer a more collaborative, friendly kind of internet engagement and that the forum lends itself to forceful, sometimes aggressive statements of opinion that some women find offputting?

I thought it was just the martial arts background of many plus the mantak chia retention syndrome which drives many young men here 

I watched a bit of the guruviking interview but I couldn’t get up much interest.

7 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

This bunch of bums is not representative and on top of that the ratio male female is heavily skewed. 

Too much women meekly do as the church tells them, thereby betraying their sisters. 

Do people still go to church where you are?

 

On a personal note I moved to a majority Catholic country and a small rural village ( full of old ladies in black) - but I was amazed how relaxed and open minded they are about the few LGBT+ people who either live here or are related to those who do.

 

Also historically most witch trials and the like were 16/17th century puritans and not  the inquisition.

An extract from Park's book 'How Buddhism Acquired a Soul on the way to China' attached if anyone is interested.

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I would imagine that they terminology in those sutras that came from Daoism was used because of the recognizably similar conceptual material.

yes particularly the ‘abstruce mystery school’ - xuanxue… the last step In the process involved a classically trained Daoist or Confucian scholar reframing the translation into ‘correct’ Chinese - if they hadn’t done this the sutras wouldn’t have been taken seriously by the intelligencia .

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

...and the terms "Dao" and "the way" appear in some of the last Buddhist Mahayana Sutras, originally authored in Chinese.

There’s a very good book called ‘ how Buddhism found its way to China and squired a soul’ by Park which explains in some detail how the Chinese approached translating the sutras.

1 minute ago, silent thunder said:

Rivers and Insects and Trees.  Oh my!

Oh I thought you meant ‘entities’ …but insects?

13 minutes ago, Maddie said:

This forum is full of self taught masters 

It’s full of something alright.

6 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

My most intense and effective teachers have seldom been humans...

Spooky!

28 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I don't think there is anything in our universe that doesn't co-create and intermingle. Having investigated a couple of these traditions as a non-scholar on this topic, I think it is obvious that Buddhism/Ch'an, Taoism, and other traditions definitely co-mingled in China and influenced each other. 

 

Rather than thinking about these "movements" as separate, I tend to think of them in terms of the teachers. Enlightened teachers (in my experience) have ZERO qualms about quoting some Rumi, Ramana Maharshi, or whatever valid dharma they have met with and recognized in order to wake up their students. This story of intermingling isn't so much about traditions as it is about well-known,  recognized and well-traveled teachers picking up teachings as they move through the world and using them as skillful means. 

well put

 

just as an example Tilopa appears in both Buddhist and Hindu lineage lists.

 

 

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

There has been some work done about Dzogchen and Chan by Sam van Schaik, but he doesn't concur with the Chan influence theory. I believe he has updated this in his Tibetan Zen book, but here is an old article in which he suggests the influence may have gone the other way: 

 

https://www.academia.edu/34502820/Dzogchen_Chan_and_the_Question_of_Influence

 

The Shaivism - Buddhist connection is summarized here by Wallis:

 

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

 

It is clear that there was interplay between China and Tibet, and between Buddhism  and Shaivism. 

 

What I find odd is hearing a lot of overlap between a range of Tibetan Buddhist practices (including deity yoga) and Advaita Vedanta via Swami Sarvapriyananda's oral lectures. There is also a lot of overlap with Shaivism and Shaivism provides some answers to things that aren't entirely clear in the Tibetan context. This suggests to me a common source, and if I had to speculate, I think the common source in Indian Tantra as opposed to Chinese influences. But I haven't really studied it since the practice is more important than the history. 

 

However, there are some similarities between some of these practices and Daoist practices as well, particularly as related to body/energy practices. My experience is that the "secrets" of Daoist practices tend to be close held and even when disclosed, tend to be to full time practitioners. 

 

 

 

 

I think what Sam is suggesting is that the idea of distinct ‘things’ called dzogchen or Chan may be confusing.  I think it’s not about one thing dominating another thing but more something happened from which what we know as Dzogchen and Chan emerged.

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

I don’t have references to hand I’m afraid.

Could be Sam van Schaik or Jeffrey Samuel - I have read a lot of both.

7 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Are Afghan/Kashmirian/Parthian/Chinese origins backed by historical research? This is interesting, if you have the time, could you please give pointers as to who has done this research?

I don’t have references to hand I’m afraid.

1 hour ago, tao.te.kat said:

BTW, the Kagyu official lineage puts Naropa just before Marpa (thought it names also Maitripa).

 

That's the info I had, but anyway is not that important:

 

https://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/

Marpa held two lineages the direct and the indirect - the first from Naropa and the second from Maitripa.  The Mahamudra lineage was the second.

 

But of course this was in the tenth century AD and is not relevant to the true origins of either Mahamudra or Dzogchen.  The true origins are connected to the kingdoms in the area of the Kashmir and Afghanistan which were in turn connected to the silk route and kingdoms such as Parthia and so on and of course China itself.  This is the route along which both goods and knowledge were transmitted. 

14 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

no;) not recorded there

http://www.shixiu.net/dujing/daojiaojingdian/1019.html

the term's history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neidan#Terminology

maybe he should, but he wonders what good will possibly come out of it?

I am a chosen one. Yet i am a total loser in all other respects, so i dont have any illusions of grandeur. My gift is not bankable. Its more of a curse actually.

Thanks so Song Dyn for widespread use of term for a set of practices- is this what you mean by a modern invention?

23 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Neidan is a made-up western word which means  1) the teaching of  alchemy, 2) the practice of  alchemy 3)  the product of  alchemy  (the  elixir).

These are 3 different things yet the westerners  lump  all 3 of them into one fake term

The westerners made up this  fake  term in order to delude themselves that they can  A) understand  the alchemy, B ) practice  the alchemy C) teach the alchemy - without ever D) producing the elixir.

 

To answer your question:

NO. For normal people, with or without a teacher, it is not possible. 

YES . For a particularly gifted, 1-in-a-billion person, it is possible .

This exceptional book explains " LDT meditation technique" for  virtue, health, power and wisdom in complete detail.

Who could  get these results from this book will be able to advance to neidan. 

isn’t the term neidan  used in the cantong qi (sp?)

1 hour ago, tao.te.kat said:

>My current view for what it is worth is that Dzogchen and Mahamudra derive from Zouwang.

 

Meditation similar to Zouwang and others existed in India too even before Buddha. Jhanas were taught to Buddha by hinduists the VI century BC (in India-Nepal)

 

So it's hard to tell. But meditation existed way before Buddhism and probably Daoism. And in Cnina and India. Both places. India for sure.

 

On respect Dzogchen there's some debate, but Mahamudra origins are clearly from Indian Siddhas Tilopa and then Naropa. Marpa the translator came next and was the first tibetan to receive the teachings, then came the famous Milarepa. And his disciple, Gampopa build the foundations of what now we know as Mahamudra. The lineage here is quite clear and documented and comes from India.

 

So for Mahamudra derivate from Zouwang it has to have come first to India and be adopted by the great siddhas of the time. Not impossible, but strange.

 

Dzogchen origins are less clear. They revert to Padmasambhava, also indian (VIII century) that went to Tíbet but his life is quite a legendary one. And there's some suspicion that some Chan/Zen influences may be there from the time Moheyan (chinese Chan monk) went to Tíbet on the VIII century. From this time on, there's, no doubt some chinese influence in tibetan buddhism but the indian one is a lot more clear.

Apart from anything else Marpa obtained the Mahamudra lineage from Maitripa and not Naropa.

 

Zouwang is first mentioned in zhuangzi and is probably much older thus pre- dating the Buddha.

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

If you made that up, can you tell me what sherry you are drinking these days, please (I quite like it)?

I did but it did take a fairly large amount of alentejo red wine.

7 minutes ago, surrogate corpse said:

how about this: next time i'm at one of the local used bookstores i'll check for a byron, just for you

That would be acceptable.