Apech

I love riddles so I thought I'd see if a riddle thread would endure.

 

RULES:

 

Whoever answers the riddle correctly earns the right to post a new riddle, else of course they can pass and whatever riddle gets posted first becomes the next to solve.

Riddle #1:

 

What has no eyes, no ears, and no mouth yet always tells the truth?

 

 

A very honest biscuit?

 

(or maybe a mirror?)

But why did the sun inspire Egyptian experiences???

 

There was no difference to the Egyptians between their spiritual view and their natural view. So the visible sun was the ba of Ra, or sometimes the sun disk is the body/form of Ra.

 

In nature, in the Egyptian agricultural system their were two essential things for life. The Nile inundation waters (which carried rich alluvial mud from the African mountains) and the sun. In the same way in their mystical system their are two key experiences, the West where the sun sinks back into the waters revealing the void nature of things and the sun rise in the East which is a vision of unity in the appearance of the creative power.

 

The Book of the Dead devotes a number of chapters to explaining this experience, especially Chapter 17 which has a 'glossary' text where the statements are interpreted and explained. However the explanations on first read are as obscure as the original statements. One of the things I am working on is a modern glossary to this text.

Amazing, thanks for writing the article, got me very interested.

 

I wonder, what's the relation of The Sacred Blue Lotus (Nymphaea caerulea) and the ka.

Considering the Lotus' aphrodisia and the way it was used (soaked in wine) I think that blue lotus could have been very much valued in that sense.

Very very interesting, I'll have to read up on this when I find the time.

 

 

The blue lotus is most associated with Nefertem and the young rising sun. I would suggest that this is linked to the ba and the aphrodisiac and perfume is to do with the ecstatic experience from uniting to your soul.

Apepch7,

 

So I read about the Discourse of a Man with his Ba or the man who was tired of life:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5997476/Ancient-...Wisdom-Readings

 

Interesting stuff. The vibe I had in mind for a guardian angle was from the Greco/Egyptian magical papyrii about summoning a spirit, feeding it, creating a partnership and he/she will do your bidding as long as you don't use him to score you some pork.

 

This Ba thing was very interesting... there seemed to be a fair amount of antagonism between the two but in the end some sort of union.

 

If you could comment on the role of these two types of "angels," that'd be awesome!

 

There seemed to be an allusion to the disbelief in reincarnation where the wife wouldn't be allowed to be reborn.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

 

Hi Yoda,

 

I will try to find time to write up the ba. But quickly, it is symbolised by a bird with a human head. This is because, unlike the ka which stays in the tomb/underworld the ba is free to move. It leaves the tomb to see the rising sun, one of the key events in the after-life. The word ba is also used of gods, the sun is the 'great eastern ba', and ba also means Ram, so it is linked to sexual potency. The ba as well as being able to move can undergo transformation into different forms.

 

So the ba is about spontaneous, creative power and is in short the divine part of a person. It is your god-like aspect. The 'danger' with the ba is that it goes off and doesn't return. For this reason the ba is summoned back to unite with the mummy in the tomb. The text you linked to makes an analogy between the ba and the eye of Ra which goes to the scorching desert and has to be fetched back. This is because your creative imagination, as a divine power is subject to flights of fancy, prefers the open sky to the daily grind.

 

The man in the text is fed up with the misery of life and wants to die because the 'West' - i.e. the land of death, is appealingly peaceful and 'cool'. But when the ba speaks it tells him to put aside all this worry, have a good time and then when it is time for him to die they will be united.

 

When I say the ba is your creative power or imagination, I don't mean this in just psychological terms, but that this is an actual entity to which, like the man in the story you can make an appeal. You can through mediation and other techniques access the ba and travel with it.

 

There is a lot more and I will try to write it up.

 

Cheers.

 

Apepch7

I have posted an article in the articles section on my understanding of the ka.

 

Yoda,

 

I don't know of any book which do justice to the spiritual interpretation of Egyptian Mysticism - but I haven't read everything

The ka.

 

The Egyptian's saw the person as comprising a number of entities and one of these was the ka. The ka was represented as a pair of upraised arms in a gesture which may mean an embrace, a greeting or an act of worship.

 

 

The ka of a person was derived ultimately from the creative power (Atum or Ra) and was inherited from generation to generation. There is a benign serpent god called "Neheb-kau" whose name means either "Uniter of kas" or "Alloter of kas" depending on whose translation you read. This winged serpent existed in the primeval waters and was later associated with the Nile inundation, it was also believed to have magic powers from eating seven cobras. This Neheb-kau can be best understood as being the continuum of power itself, an aspect of Atum (the complete one) who brought the world into being through his bodily substances. This serpent-power has the kas of all potential beings held within itself. As the process of creation develops, these kas become embodied into actual beings alive on the earth.

 

So the individual ka of a person comes originally from the power that brought the world into being.

 

The ka is often translated as 'double' because it was shown on tomb illustrations as being a figure identical to the deceased, sometimes with the ka symbol on their heads but although you will often come across the term 'double' it is undefined and not all that helpful. However it is true to say that the ka was closely connected with the body. After death the deceased is said to "go to his ka", although the physical body has ceased to function the person still 'exists' in the form of the ka. The ka, unlike the ba which is free to move about and leave the tomb, remains close to the mummy. In order to survive it requires food and other offerings. These offerings are sometimes called ka because of this connection.

 

In life also there are special instances of the ka. Most significantly the Royal Ka which the king receives at coronation. Here the ka is that special power or charisma that authority gives to people. You can, for instance see it operate in politicians, who on achieving high office cease to be the rather forgettable and unattractive figures they formerly were and fed by the worlds attention, seem to take on some extra sparkle (see early and late pics of Margaret Thatcher if you don't believe me). So in life the ka can be enhanced and strengthened, although better through inner working rather than the pursuit of worldly power.

 

Also in life the association with the body is very strong and this has given rise to the idea of an internal and an external ka. But actually these are the same thing. The heart, which to the Egyptians was seen as the centre of one's being, the mind, character and personality, was called the 'ka in my body".

 

"...for you are the ka that was in my body, the protector who made my members hale."

 

(Ch. 30b BoD trans. Faulkner)

 

We know from the Shabaka Stone (Memphite Cosmogeny) that the heart (together with the tongue) was seen as the 'command and control" centre of the being. And we can say from this that the ka has the same function in a disembodied state. So as well as being a vital energy, the ka had a co-ordinative and forming function. A specific energy field which during life supported and co-ordinated vital functions in the body and after death persisted on a finer level than the gross physical body.

 

As the ka is passed down through one's parents (although ultimately from the creative power itself) it carries with it a kind of energy signature, that is a specific set of vibrational energies which are specific to the person - which is what makes us each unique in character. This 'spark' is transmitted through sex and you could say the nature and condition of your ka is determined by the sexual chemistry of your parents. However, after being born the ka is affected by interactions with the world and can be boosted or damaged by circumstances. It can be strengthened and enhanced by internal working. Equally it can be damaged by one's own deeds or words.

 

In the funerary rites it was considered essential to protect, preserve and reenergise the ka following death, in order to attain a successful after life journey. For this reason special priest called hemu-ka (ka servants) made offerings to the blessed dead. This was part of what is known as the reversion of offerings. Food and other offerings were made through a specific formula known as "hotep di nesu" or the king's offering, these were made (usually) to Osiris with the plea that this god made the same 'good things' available to the person's ka in the Netherworld. When this ceremony had been completed the actual offerings were then shared out between priest, ka priests and others so nothing was lost or spoilt, hence the 'reversion'.

 

Ka priests were able also to contact the kas of particular ancestors such as great kings or figures such as Im-hotep the architect of Step Pyramid to seek advice and so on. But principally the idea was to ensure enough energy was available to the ka in order that it could carry out the tasks and transformations needed after death. Although this energy was provided symbolically by food offerings, obviously it was understood that the ka could not actually eat, as eating is a function of the physical body. So what were they doing? The answer is that the attention of the priests and family fed the ka. In the same way as the attention of people in the worldly situation, feeds the famous, so by remembering the dead their ka is supported and energised.

 

A clue to this I idea that you energise other beings through remembering them can be found in the tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor, although this applies to a god and not to a ka. The sailor in question finds himself marooned on a desert island and encounters a huge serpent. After recovering from his shock he finds that the serpent is the god of the Island and is actually very kindly. The serpent magically produces everything he needs. After a while the sailor is about to be rescued and turns to the serpent and says - how can I repay you, you saved my life and clothed and fed me, but you are a god and have everything you need. The serpent replies that if the sailor wishes to repay him then he should ensure that the serpent is remembered. This remembering of the god is about worship. The serpent is saying that the service men do for gods is remembering them. So while the man has depended on the god/serpent the god/serpent will depend on the man. This reciprocity between man and gods and man and the blessed dead is a hallmark of Egyptian religion. Its a 'you do something for me and I'll do something for you' relationship. Remembering, and particularly remembering a name had a magic significance for the Egyptians.

 

This reciprocal relationship between men and gods is expressed most clearly in Utterance 269, of the Pyramid Texts - a censing prayer:

 

"The fire is laid, the fire shines;

The incense is laid on the fire, the incense shines.

Your perfume comes to me, O Incense;

May my perfume come to you, O Incense.

Your perfume comes to me, you gods;

May my perfume come to you, you gods.

May I be with you, you gods;

May you be with me, you gods.

May I live with you, you gods;

May you live with me, you gods.

I love you, you gods;

May you love me, you gods."

 

(AE PT trans. R.O. Faulkner).

 

What the Egyptian writers were pointing to here is that the world as we perceive it is drawn out of the continuum of power (Atum). Before the world is drawn into existence all forms of existence are so mutually interpenetrating that they cannot be said to 'exist' in any real sense but lie dormant. However when the forms of existence, men or gods do come into being then they do so in reciprocal relation to each other. Without a man to 'remember' the god, there is no god, but without a god to create him there is no man. This is strikingly illustrated in the mythology around the formation of the Egyptian temple, where it is described how the ancient ancestor spirits climbed out of the primeval waters on to the first hill and then called into existence the god that created them. This paradoxical relation between perceiver and perceived is very important.

 

In this way we can understand that our ka is produced and maintained by the attention of self and others. So the task for the ka-priests was to maintain the attention on the ka for sufficient time for the transformations to happen. Once the akh had been formed it becomes self sustaining.

 

The risk to the ka then was that its energy was depleted and that it would be drawn back whence it came into the abysmal waters and reabsorbed into the Neheb-kau. If this happened then it was not possible for the person to complete the task of forming an 'akh' which is an imperishable effective spirit, as this 'akh' is formed by the interaction of the ka, the ba and the body.

 

The link between the ka and heart extends to the issue of 'evil' or impurity. The heart is weighed in the balance to see if the individual is free from impurities and similarly the ka. In Chapter 105 of the Book of Dead the deceased appeals to the 'ka of his lifetime' and purifies it from all the bad things he has done or said by using the 'amulet on the neck of Ra', this amulet is Maat (Truth or Order).

 

"Greetings to you, my ka, [of] my lifetime!

Lo, I have come to you,

having appeared and being strong,

ba-mighty, and powerful.

I have brought you natron and incense,

that I may purify you therewith and purify your sweat therewith.

Every evil statement I have made,

every evil deed I have done,

(they) will not be reckoned against me;

for I am that amulet

that is around the throat of Re

and is given to the horizon dwellers.

When they thrive, I also thrive,

and my ka thrives like theirs,

and my ka is fed like theirs."

 

(Ch. 105 BoD trans. Assmann).

 

The horizon dwellers are the akhs.

 

 

Everything I have said here about what happens after death applies equally to the living. The following is a summary of ka working.

 

 

1.Every person receives at conception a 'bundle' of energy which forms their signature energy reflecting their character, personality and being and which protects their body.

2.This ka has been handed down through the ancestral record from the original creative power until now.

3.The ka is affected by the individual's words and deeds, and adversely affected by 'evil' words and deeds.

4.The ka may be enhanced through the attention of self and others, in a worldly sense and through internal working.

5.During life the right food and attention will enhance the ka.

6.On death, or during certain practices the individual will go to their ka, that is exist as a ka and not as a body. After death this is a vulnerable period and there is a risk to the continuation of the ka.

7.The 'ultimate' task is to integrate the ka, ba and 'body' to form the 'akh'. This is the goal of Egyptian Mysticism.

those thieving bastards... ..,

I don't let them get me down,

they don't matter now.

Hypnagogia by Andreas Mavromatis; the definitive book on the subject with lots of references.

 

 

Artform, thanks for the info - the book (or parts of it) is available online at googlebooks. I was going to buy it till I saw the price on Amazon $153 !!!!

 

they don't matter now

all those frequent sleepless nights

I'll just read this book.

Yes, enchanting. The granite ones may still be holding the charge from various ceremonies. Granite I believe - like crystal - is supposed to hold energetic signatures.

 

I didn't care for the vibe either. There is a distinct aggrieved air - its a shame the dead and their artifacts couldn't have been left alone.

 

I feel quite a guarded attraction towards Sekhmet, not in the least because she bears more than a striking resemblance to the Tibetan Dakini, Senge Dongma (Simhamukha). The late Robert Masters dedicated much of his life to Sekhmet:

http://www.robertmasters.org/sekhmet/1.html

 

Thanks again Apcech7, really good thread. Do you rate the work of Theodor Abt and Erik Hornung? They've produced some finely ilustrated works on the Amduat. Speaking of which I hear that the British Museum is very shortly going to be opening a new room dedicated to Egyptian tomb paintings ...

 

Thanks for the thanks! really, I am restraining myself from writing 320 page essays because I know I am a little obsessive about this subject. It all started for me when I was student and interested in meditation, the Dao etc. I had a conversation with someone saying I wanted to find a system that really worked and they said "oh well its all in the Book of the Dead you know." So I got a copy and understood exactly nothing but got completely hooked on trying to work out what exactly they (the Egyptians) were on about.

 

The Brit Mus I am no great fan and I go there like a military operation, work out what I want to see, go and see it and extract myself like special forces as quickly as possible. But in the defense of it and any other museum + Egyptology - what would we know without it? Also tomb robbing started in the ancient world and most tombs were robbed by Egyptians themselves in antiquity - with a couple of notable exceptions e.g King Tut. So you can't blame the modern world for that! Human beings have always been the same!

 

As to the big statues - also they are not my things - you can keep Rameses 2 and all his ego mania and empire building and his overblown temples. My heart is with the genuine practitioners (similar to us) who worked quietly on understanding the way. So I rarely look at the big stone stuff! Also the mummies - I admit to some qualms cos it could be my great- great-great ...great granddad's skinny bones everyone is gawping at! But I reassure myself by going back to the idea that all this stuff was meant to be found. We are meant to recover this ancient knowledge - just in the same way as the knowledge of the east is meant to come west, Buddhism leave the land of snows etc. So I hope there is no great resentment in the minds of the AEs cos I believe its all in a good cause.

 

Thanks for the Robert Masters link I will ahve a good read of that.

 

As regards Eric Hornung he is a bit of hero to me, but only as an Egyptologist - I have two indispensable books by him - "The one and the many - concepts of god in Ancient Egypt" and "The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife". However I am told he does not beleive in any spiritual matters which makes it rather strange that he should collaborate with Abt on the Am Dwat, as Abt is a Jungian and is into psycho-spiritual interpretations. That's a good book too but the English translation reads in places like a quick Google job!

 

 

falling asleep state

so many thieves in the night

robbing us of sleep

 

 

 

 

robbing us of sleep

I'm up at five this morning!

those thieving bastards!!!!!!

 

(could do with some hynowotsit and I'm an Aquarian too)

Apepch7,

 

I've been curious as to 3 and 5 in the Egyptian system... thanks for any thoughts!

 

So you've obviously studied up... If you feel like chatting about it, what sort of affinity do you have for this material? What have you gotten out of it? What other systems have you studied?

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

 

Yoda,

 

As to 3 and 5 ... three is most significantly the deities of the third phase of creation - i.e. Nut (sky), Geb (earth) and Shu (air) - Shu holds the sky up from the earth thus keeping the world in existence. If the sky and earth come together then the world sinks back into the primordial abyss of the Nun. This also relates to the three 'dimensions' of the created world i.e. sky and earth again + the Dwat or netherworld which is conceived as being inside both the earth and sky. The Dwat is the space into which one goes at death and also where one goes in dreams and so on - so its the land of the shamanistic journey.

 

Five relates to the five senses. The High Priest of Thoth was called the 'great one of the five' meaning he was a master of perception and had command over Sia (perception). But, Thoth is also called 'thrice great' in temple inscriptions which relates to Hermes Trismegistos of Emerald Tablet fame for anyone into western Alchemy.

 

I was conscious when I came back to this thread that I haven't really talked at all about Egyptian Mysticism but just about Egyptology. Because it is not an extant system the way I work is this. I use the discipline of Egyptology to study intellectually the ideas and concepts and what is known about their religion and also to help read texts. Then I use meditation to unlock the power of those ideas into direct realisations about the nature of reality. In this way you can build a kind of map of the mind/reality which discloses deeper and deeper insights into the nature of things. Although as I say it is not an extant system I find that when I work on it, it guides me, points out to me various things, and I see this as being particularly the influence of Thoth.

 

I have also studied Tai Chi and Qi Gong under Master To and Grace Chen as well as Tibetan Buddhism - all of which have benefited me greatly and are systems for which I have the greatest respect.

I thought that Anubis and Apuat were the same dude... canine/psychopomp types as it were... Confusing territory!!

 

Speaking of City of 8, I'm guessing that they have a numerology system going on? Does the number 8 have any meaning on it's own?

 

 

You have to remember the Egyptian culture spanned an extremely long period of time and that there were three main periods of development Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom - as well as the Late Period. During these times some of the ways in which ideas were expressed changed slightly. So in some ways you could say Anubis and Apuat became to be seen as more or less the same at some time, even though they originally had their own function, history and centres of worship. Egypt can be very confusing because of this - and the fact that the Egyptians were the masters of holding multiple (sometimes contradictory) ideas/images together at one time.

 

Yes, numbers were hugely significant. Eight in this case refers to four male and four female deities which emerged from the void. This represents a 'state' before the creation in which the emerging forms were still interpenetrating - (you might think of something like a quantum field for a modern equivalent). After eight comes nine, or the Ennead which is the number of the creation, the structure of the universe.

It seems to me that if this man used to be an acupuncturist and was interested in eastern philosophy and now completely rejected it, then he had a massive conflict in himself. In fact on the basis that energy 'cannot be created or destroyed' then he must have labeled part of himself as evil and so on. People like this will emanate quite disturbing 'vibrations' I feel and should be handled with great care.

 

Personally since I think every being has a point of view of some sort, I would have asked him what exactly he meant by the Devil and evil but only because I would have been interested enough to remind myself not ever to fall into this way of thinking myself. I would have said clearly to myself that this was his issue and not mine and closed down the conversation as quickly as possible.

 

If the experience left me with an after taste then I would have worked on that in myself to see what inconsistency or conflict his behaviour had resonated within me. Or if I had a life to live, just waited for the natural process of assimilation to complete - life has its knocks I'm afraid they just have to be suffered sometimes.

Yes, thank you for this - very well expressed.

 

THINKS OF UNIVERSE!

 

forgets to take a shower

 

no one comes near him...

 

no one comes near him ...

that's ok for a hermit,

who has no real friends.

 

Apepch7,

 

Feel free to get on with your life and ignore these questions... but if you have time: Who are Anubis and Thoth? Are they related? And is Anubis related to Set? Is 'scapegoating' something that goes on in Egyptian religions?

 

Thanks!

Yoda

 

 

The names Anubis and Thoth are actually Greek version of Anpu and Djehuty.

 

Anpu is a dog or jackal, black in colour and is the deity associated with embalming and cemeteries. He is in charge of the seven sacred oils which are used to purify and embalm the mummy and it is thought that the priests that carried out this task wore an Anubis mask at certain points in the process. He is shown as reclining on the tomb and was in part a guardian of the necropolis. His black colour was not the natural colour of these desert dogs but was symbolic of death and more importantly the regenerative powers of the waters of the Nun (void). He had various titles and was an ancient god in his own right - but because of a late tendency to put the gods in family groups was sometimes thought of as the son of Set and Nephthys, although rather confusingly he was regarded as the son of Isis in very late times when the Isis cult grew to prominence. He is sometimes linked to and confused with another jackal god called Apuat (or Wepwawet) whose name means "Opener of the ways" which refers to the function of acting in vanguard to the god Osiris in the rites of Abydos.

 

Djehuty (Thoth) is the god of wisdom. One of the greatest gods of Egypt, worshiped in the form of an Ibis or sometimes a baboon. He was linked (but not exclusively) to the moon - but was chiefly regarded as the inventor of writing, mathematics and medicine. Although not 'related' to Anubis in the sense of family, they are often shown together because they are the chief guides to the dead in the underworld. Thoth supplies the knowledge of the underworld, what to do and how to do it. He also supplies the magical words (heka) by which the dead person is able to open the doors and gateways in the underworld and overcome guardian demons and so on. Thoth's main place of worship was Hermopolis (Khemennu) which in Egyptian means City of Eight - a name which refers to the Ogdoad of primeval deities which emerged from the void in the form of frogs and serpents. In his own city Thoth is regarded as the creator which he effected by flying as an Ibis through the primeval waters calling forth the creatures.

 

Not sure about 'scapegoating' - if you mean sacrificed animals which take away the sins of others, maybe, but its not mainstream as far as I know.

I found the original paper interesting but that the author was writing from a pre-defined point of view. He is clearly in favour of orthodoxy and against individual freedom of expression, pro-Catholic and anti-Protestant and this rather obvious stance obscured his otherwise valid points.

 

He is right of course that some people's take on the Tao Te Ching is a million miles from a traditional Chinese view. That people have taken from the text what they want and been highly selective in what they accept and what they don't. I suppose it is a danger of being outside the orthodox that we are vulnerable to our own delusions and fantasies in a way that the obedient members of a church are not. That we become self indulgent and confuse this confused freedom with strength. However what the writer overlooks I think is that modern takes on 'spirituality' are a new emergent and despite the amount of nonsense this might produce, this has to be balanced against those who gain a genuine revelatory experience and that those who do are almost always anti or at least outside of the established churches or schools of discipline.

but held by mermaids

'till you share with them sweet love

jewel of the deep

 

 

jewel of the deep

like an ocean in a drop

within an ocean.

I called myself but it was engaged.

Yoda,

 

1) Reincarnation, heavenly realms and what happens after being eaten by Ammit?

 

There is no teaching on reincarnation in Egypt that I'm aware of but there was definitely a future after death. In principle this relied on becoming an 'akh' or effective spirit, aligning with the Northern circumpolar stars (known as the imperishible spirits) and therefore becoming indestructible = immortal. It is possible that reincarnation was a secret doctrine in Egypt but this is impossible to prove.

 

As to heavenly realms the blissful after-life was called the sekhet-hetep or sekhet-arru (meaning fields of peace/offerings + fields of reeds) in these realm the deceased is shown enjoying a kind of perfect form of life on earth. Sometimes the sky goddess 'Nut' is translated as 'heaven' but a better translation is just sky. In typical Egyptian fashion there were many images of how the blessed dead spent their existence - e.g. riding in the sun's boat, living as a star, living in the fields of peace with Osiris.

 

Ammit is interesting. She is shown as a composite 'monster' with the head of a crocodile, body of a lion and hindquarters of a hippo. The reason this is interesting is because a form of the mother goddess "Ta-urt" (meaning the great-one) is composed of the same three animals but in the reverse order. The head of a hippo, the body of a lion and the tail of a crocodile. Ta-urt is like the cosmic womb from which all beings, indeed all forms emerge. She gives birth to everything that exists. Ammit as the reverse of this makes things 'un-born', that is she sucks them out of existence. This is an anathema to the Egyptians and to us to ... i.e. to die and be completely forgotten. This is what is called the second death. the first death is when the spirit leaves the body. At this point, although the body has ceased to function the person still exists as a ka, ba, shade and so on. There is still a chance for re-integration, but the second death is a real end to the possibility for the being to exist. This is why the Book of the Dead has chapters called "Not dying a second time."

 

2) Guardian angel - well possibly but not expressed in that way. The ba is sometimes seen a bit this way - indeed there is a famous text called "A discourse of a man with his soul" - sometimes called "The man who is tired of life."

 

3) Persian/Indian/Tibetan and so on. I have read about this idea but I don't know if there is enough evidence to say it is so. What I absolutely believe is that mankind is far older than scientists suppose in terms of culture, belief systems and understanding of the world. So I think that the ancient wisdom which is enshrined in all these cultures goes way back - probably to a common source (not necessarily Atlantis but as the origin of this myth.)

 

4) Omm Sety is actually quite highly regarded in Egyptological circles (despite her strange beliefs).

 

 

Witch,

 

1) E.A. Wallis Budge - he is quite a controversial figure in Egyptology. Even at the time that he wrote (late 19 century) he was not at the leading edge of Egyptian studies and he has some very strange views about certain things e.g. sexual imagery. This is a drawback for Egyptian studies because they believed that Atum the creator brought the world into being by masturbating (or in some versions by auto-fellatio !) amongst much else!!! So most Egyptologists would tell you to throw his books away. But that's what they think. The good thing about Budge is that he published so much and that now because of copyright expiry its available really cheap! Which I think is a good thing - I have several of his books. He is most famous for publishing the Papyrus of Ani - a version of the Book of the Dead from the British Museum.

 

2) The 'ka' is very interesting... but I've run out of time.

Apepch7,

 

Thanks for the info, that was way awesome!!! I pride myself in being a serious Google God, but it's very humbling for me to see how hard it is to get even a rudimentary understanding on this front. Muppet Labs owes you one!

 

The whole Christian approach of sacrificing God's life to purge sin and create a fresh new start for the world with the discovery of the resurrection by Mary M. seems paralleled to the Osiris story at least at first glance.

 

Is there any sacrificing-to-purge-sin in the Egyptian Religion? Is there any notion of sin? I'm also really curious about the concept of heaven and hell and afterlife in Egypt. Thanks for any additional thoughts!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

 

Yoda,

 

Thanks for your continuing interest - I thought maybe I was boring everyone to death with my long explanations .

 

There is a concept of sin in Egypt as can be seen in the famous Judgment Scene (Ch. 125 Book of the Dead) where the heart of the deceased is weighed on the scales against the feather of maat (truth). This illustration is accompanied by what is known as the 'negative confession'. Basically the deceased in the underworld has to say that he/she has not done certain 'bad' deeds. These include moral, social and religious transgressions. The weighing of the heart is carried out by Thoth and Anubis but the judge is Osiris, who after his death became the king of the dead or "Foremost of the Westerners." Westerners being a term for the dead because the necropolis was on the west bank of the Nile.

 

So if the heart of the deceased (and heart stands for mind here) balances with truth he is ok, if not he is fed to a monster called Ammit (!) So better to be good!

 

Every person who died also became an 'Osiris N', where N was their name. So for instance you would become the Osiris Yoda ( ). In Ch. 17 of the Book of the Dead it is described, amongst a whole lot else, how the 'evil' (Egyptian word Dw) is removed from the Osiris N. The text explains that this 'Dw' has arisen because of what the Osiris N has done since he came from his mothers womb. Also the 'Dw' is described through a particular grammatical form as being 'of', 'on' or 'attached to' the Osiris. So the idea is that since being born through our actions we accumulate this Dw which then has to be removed in the Netherworld. This Dw is not ours exactly, but something that we have accumulated. The removal is through a dual process - firstly the gods who make up the cosmos (long detailed explanation needed for who they are which I can't put in here) judge between what is 'pure' in the Osiris N and what is 'Dw' - secondly the Eye of Horus (a goddess) named in this case as Hetep-se-Khus ('she who brings fulfillment/peace and protection') then burns out the impurities like a flame passing through the deceased.

 

So what is being described is a dual process of 1) settling out impurities from the mind, allowing us to distinguish between 'pure' being and contamination 2) burning the contamination out using psychic energy.

 

So although the Egyptians had concepts for sin - it was something that could be removed, in fact had to be removed and was to do with human interaction in life, human entanglements and was not an essential constituent of the being.

 

Osiris himself is like the forerunner for everyone else. He makes it possible for the rest of us because we can ask - let what was done for Osiris be done for me. So in a way Osiris could be seen as having gone through this 'for' us.

 

Lot more to say about this but not enough time now.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Apepch7

"Apepch7,

 

I've noticed that it's pretty challenging to put together even a newbie level understanding of Egyptian religion. If you ever feel inclined to write up an Egyptian Religions for Dummies article, Egyptian q&a thread, or a recommended reading list that'd be great!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

PS, my question du jour: is Set a good guy or a bad guy? I read the wiki on him and it sounded like he's a good guy. Am reading Search for Omm Sety (which I realize might not be the best place to get info laugh.gif ) but there the vibe was that Set was demonic. Of course, all these good guys can have a wrathful side and maybe that was the glimpse received in that book. Thanks for any thoughts!

 

PPS, While I consider Jesus to be a major avatar, I've always wondered at how strange of a religion Christianity has seemed to me and wondered where on earth did the whole storyline come from... it doesn't seem to 100% fit the Hebrew tradition. Now it feels like it is a reenactment of the Egyptian religion within a Roman/Hebrew framework. I'd love to hear your take on it."

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Writing an article on Egypt would be a major piece of work (even if it was for dummies ). I've studied Egypt for about 30 years and feel like I'm scratching the surface. Its such a deep and profound system - but sadly one which died out with the beginning of the Christian era (or rather with the beginning of Christianity as the state religion under the Roman Empire). If you want to know about it then you have to choose between either mainstream Egyptology books - which have the advantage of being rigorous in an academic sense (but are still subject to the writers prejudice e.g. Sethe and Assmann deny any mysticism in Egypt despite Egypt being recognised in classical times as the most religious culture on earth.) or more interpreted books by people who are interested in mysticism and have written up their own ideas - some of which are a bit fanciful and are not backed up by much evidence. So if you want a really good book on authentic Egyptian Mysticism - there isn't one.

 

If I start my own practice thread I can post some ideas for discussion if anyone is interested.

 

Set - aha! a very interesting god! To understand Set (probably originally called something like Sutekh) you have to look back at the origin of Egypt as a single country at the very beginning of its history. Orginally there were two kingdoms of Upper Egypt (in the South) and Lower Egypt (in the North). The first dynastic king united these two different regions into one country which throughout its history was still known as 'the two lands' for this reason. The totemic male deities of these two lands were Horus (North/Lower Egypt) and Set (South/Upper Egypt). In the early dynasties these two gods were seen as equal and opposite. Some kings were named after Set and some after Horus and some both. (Even in the New Kingdom Set could be also used for a kings name e.g. Set I etc.) So Set as originally understood is not evil or bad. However he was a force which provided opposition to Horus.

 

In late Egypt this changed slightly and Set did indeed become more associated with 'bad' things like deserts and storms. But even so, the best way to understand this is to think of two forces. One, Horus tends to create structures in order to impose order on its environment (to rule), while the other tends to break down structures in order to liberate energy. Held in dynamic tension these two provide the driving force behind the cycle of existence. The goddesses associated with them also signify the vehicles for this cyclical movement. Isis moves upward into light and Nephthys moves downward into darkness (I can give quotes from the Pyramid Texts to back this up). This is much misunderstood as Nephthys is sometimes thought of as bad and Isis good, but actually both life an death are two sides of one cycle, both are needed. The way to think of this is that there is a cycle in which one moves between luminosity (light/life) and darkness (voidity). The darkness as voidity is the source of regeneration and 'powers up' the cycle while the light (the sun) brings into existence the rich variety of created form.

 

Where Set becomes a problem is when imbalance means that Set is unrestrained. This is the source of the myth where Set (thought of as the brother of the king Osiris) kills his brother to try to take the throne. Order is restored when Horus the son of Osiris eventually after an 80 year battle overcomes Set. Set is not destroyed but is given an appropriate role.

 

Set also had a role in the sun's daily cycle. Because of his great strength and power he was the only god able to overcome the serpent Apep which opposed the sun god's journey through the sky. Thus enforcing the idea of Set as a destructive but necessary force.

 

So short answer is Set is not bad - he is vital.

 

 

Jesus - beware the internet stuff about Horus being Jesus - this is all rubbish. However it is said that as a child Jesus spent some time in Egypt . Egypt also influenced Judaism - for instance the beginning of Genisis is almost pure Egyptian thought with God moving over the face of the deep and so on. There is a resurrection theme in the Osiris/Horus myth but it is not quite like Jesus. There is no doubt that Egypt influenced Gnosticism for instance so I think that anything that might be called Christian Mysticism would have influences from Egypt.

 

One other idea that I have read about is that Mahayana Buddhism may have spread down the Silk Route into the middle east at the time that Jesus lived and taught and that some of his ideas (e.g. sermon on the mount) are almost identical to this form of Buddhism.

 

Cheers for now.

cosmos in gardens,

joy confirms the unity:

world and grain of sand

 

 

 

world and grain of sand -

one is my oyster, and one

will become my pearl.

I would suggest that devotion in say, Tibetan Buddhism, in other words guru-yoga is more a method than an absolute - or in other words a skillful means of attaining enlightenment. You take the view that your teacher is a buddha so that you may get the benefits of a buddha rather than of a being with an ordinary mind. However in terms of ultimate truth there is no difference between pupil and teacher.

 

Devotion in theistic religions is different because of the belief in an external existent deity which one has to surrender to.

 

Both have their dangers and many teachers have abused the relationship and their students (literally) by manipulating people.

 

Surrender then ultimately must be about surrendering to the process of one's own enlightenment. That is opening to either the lessons in our experience or to the immediate energy of the situation. Surely.

 

 

It's totally ridiculous. And totally explainable. I believe bloodlines--HUMAN ones. I think Icke is related to people in power and he's spreading these Big Lies to help keep them there by making reasonable opinions about global human and corporate conspiracies seem ridiculous by association.

 

I am wrong about the shamanistic thing. You are right, he is friendly with shamans.

 

 

Yes, yes, triple yes. In a way he is doing what he accuses them (the reptiles and their minions) of doing.

dust to dust we fly

desiccated jellyfish

ground in Hamlet's Mill

 

 

 

 

ground in Hamlet's Mill

or 'prisoned in a nutshell

to be or be not.