Apech

dreamy sleepyhead

reverie's navigator

into insight's gift

into insight's gift

comes a dead word unspoken

autumn leaves in spring.

I agree. So did you read the article I linked? It shows a continuum of opinion on the issue of apostasy. I think it's a reasonable article.

It claims a continuity with Christian thought as well. All the religions of the Book have this problem in that once you believe that the Bible is literally the word of God then it becomes carved in stone and cannot be reviewed or changed. Orthodox Jews have stricter and stricter interpretations of the divine law because of this.

apepch7,

 

Can I digress a little here and ask you what you think of the books by Jeremy Naydler? If you have read them anyways.

Bill

I enjoyed his "Shamanistic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts" and think that he has made a contribution to moving academic opinion away from the old entrenched views (which he summarises well). And I agree with the phenomenological approach to the texts.

I've done quite a bit of study of the Pyramid Texts of Unas and I think they are key. No one I have read has really got to the heart of them though.

A.

Honest... this is the last one I will spam here!

 

Taoist Alchemy: How I accomplished the 100 Days of Building the Foundation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2vwRtGBRoc

Thanks Darin,

I found that really interesting.

What happened after this - did you manage to stabilze these experiences?

A.

"Apepch7",

 

(I wish you were signing with your real name -unless you are a borg and Apepch7 is your real name -, it would make it easier for me to address you.

 

Thanks for your message. Yes, I do agree we are in a mess, and I do agree that Islam is in a particular moment of its development. If I suggested that the slow of islamic culture helped the popularity of the philosopher, believe me, it was beyond my words. The two things are obviously correlated, and the sources who seem to study those problems seem to agree that he caused it. Although I do have some problems in thinking a single person being that powerful. But then again, we do have other cases in history of single human being who changed a whole culture with their writings.

 

I find it interetsing that people compare Islam to Communism. I don't find it that way at all, but then again, my internal idea of communism has nothing to do with RUssia, or Marx, and a lot with growing up in Italy in the 70's and 80's where the cool people, the intellectual, the smart ones where all left and communists. I wish we avoided making comparisons with concepts that are interpreted in a such a diverse way, depending on one's culture... especially in such an international and worldwide club like TB. I am saying this not just to you, but also to whoelse brought up communism.

 

Pietro,

My name is John but I am a borg (ha ha).

I was teaching English this morning and I realised that I had an Iranian, an Iraqi, a Khurdish woman, someone from Eritrea and several others - nearly the whole of the axis of evil!!! They are so nice and well meaning that it is very hard for me to get any of the Muslim threat stuff. OK I disagree with a lot of their culture but it is not our role to lecture or disapprove. I think societies need to develop in their own ways. You can't go around the world imposing democracy for instance it has to grow from within.

There is a theory about philosophy (possibly Marxist) which says that society throw up the philosophy that reflects it. So if there is a strong hierarchy in society then the philosophy is hierarchical and so on. So I would suggest that the stage at which Islamic thinking became in turned and conservative was when somehow the society had developed in this way. Whether this is to do with expansion as such I am not sure.

The comparison with communism is not to say that Islam is in any way like communism in its approach or thinking, but just that Islam has replaced communism as the shiboleth of the West, the scary 'other' which threatens all that we stand for. This is the way that governments work. They control peoples minds by manipulating images of nasty foreigners - just as the Nazis did with the Jews and the idea of an international Jewish conspiracy and so on. That's not to say that there is no real threat from Al Quieda or whatever - but the way in which these organisations come into being and are allowed to flourish is significant.

I agree that many communists are charming bespectacled intellectuals who want to change the world for the better. But I think if you had said that in the USA 1950 - 1990 you would have got shouted at in no uncertain terms. I assure you there are many Muslims who are equally charming.

Sharia law seems to evoke some dismay in the West because of the 'barbaric' punishments - such as public flogging and the cutting off of hands. We just don't do that sort of thing - so we don't want them to either. But its not really that long ago that we did. And what were the most barbaric events of the 20 century? WW1 and WW2 presumably. We killed millions feuding over who ruled Europe - or in the case of the Japanese the Pacific basin. You just have to look at how the Japanese were portrayed after the war - as kind of alien crazy people capable of barbaric acts in concentration camps and so on. Now, on the other hand, they are colourful, funny, slightly eccentric but admirable people with their own special aesthetic.

Pietro,

I would suspect, as you kind of suggest, that the slow down in Islamic culture, or change in mind set or whatever we might call it precipitated the popularity of the philosopher's thought, rather than the other way round. I think ideas take hold in societies where the right conditions exist. Somehow the Islamic culture which blossomed in that 800 - 1100 period ran out of steam and became inward looking and conservative. Luckily for us, what they had was passed on to the West.

I understand from what you say that you think that there is something specific and threatening about Islam, over and above the kind of threat held by any orthodoxy - but maybe I am misreading you.

OK Islam is at a particular stage in its development and exists in some of the most troubled places in the world - and is also promoted in a certain form by some very uneducated people (e.g. Taliban), so it is now highlighted in a way that Communism used to be ... that is as the main threat to freedom, liberality and our way of life. By thinking like this a kind of wall has been built up which informs foreign policy against any form of Islamic state (e.g. Iran). This makes them more militant, more confused because of the way in which the West cynically switches support e.g. to and from Saddam Hussein depending on what he was getting up to.

In other words it is an unholy mess. And individuals like you and me, and the Muslim in the street are just left wondering what the hell's going on. We are all victims of this nonsense.

No Islamophobia here (best friend is a Saudi Muslim). Just honest discussion of the beauty and ugliness in a particular faith tradition (most, if not all, of them have both)

Actually it is understandable for those who would like to live under Sharia. It is simple ignorance and lack of education and personal responsibility. Same with all the other moral codes (note: not "ethical" codes) that are based on misunderstandings of human nature. Most violence arises from the same thing: Ignorance. There is hate, crime and violence in every culture, Sharia has never, and will never stop that, only education will.

People everywhere need to learn to accept other peoples lives as their own and take responsibility for their own lives. Many Muslims do feel this way, though just like many (MANY) Americans (speaking as an American), many other Muslims don't.

 

You are dead on with the "stuck in the Middle Ages" comment, but excusing it doesn't help. Neither with fundie Muslims nor Fundie "other -isms".

 

Oh, and as V. mentions above, not all Sufi Orders are Shiite. There is at least one that is Sunni, and some that aren't even Muslim. Most Sufi Orders (like most true esoteric traditions) are to some extent non-sectarian and accept any Muslim who can say "la illaha il'allah" etc..

OK fair enough - I am not a fan of any state religion used for social control. But I certainly got the impression here that some people are particularly anti-Islam and I think that maybe this has just become the new 'enemy' now that Communism has fallen. Governments and states have always set people against people by emphasising differences and I think that much of the fear/panic and 'otherness' is deliberately generated.

In the UK I always go back to the difference between the way in which we dealt with the Irish 'troubles' - ie. calm, measured, designed to stop panic even when they were bombing mainland cities (including Manchester where I live) and the reaction to 9/11 and the London Bombings which has been designed to heighten tension and fear (IMO).

I must admit I didn't know that there were Sunni Sufis but all the better for that. My friend was a member of the Nimatullah Sufi order for many years and I met Dr. Nurbhaksh the head of the order who was a great mystic and poet. Sufis who are not Muslim! That strikes me a strange - who are they?

Drama tomorrow

Darmha socks my karma

Mamamia, bum!

Mamamia bum.

Follows teachings of Abba,

Then meets Waterloo.

I am stunned to find such an Islamophobic thread on TTBs - perhaps some of you could spend some time studying the historical contribution that Islam made to science, philosophy, medecine and Western culture generally. It is not just Sufi versus the rest. Why do you find it strange that devout Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law? They probably look around at all the hate, crime, and violence that they see in our society and are quite frightened by it - as is any right minded person.

OK Islam has its fair share of nutcases who just hate everyone except themselves - but that is about the shortcomings of human nature and not Islam.

The problem is that culturally they (rather like the Orthodox Judaism) have become stuck in the Middle Ages - but then if you read Gampopa or other Tibetan Buddhism on sexual conduct you will see exactly the same thing.

If some friend of yours has run into trouble with their parents because they became a Neo-pagan - then imagine the reaction of a hard line Christian family, or a strict Jewish family - whats the difference?

PS Sufis are Shi'ite and other (most) Muslims are Sunni - the split occurred after the death of the prophet as to whether his relative Ali or the Imams inherited the spiritual tradition.

I feel moved to comment that fundamentalist Christian groups seem to preach hate - they hate gays, hate abortion, hate Islam, hate anyone who disagrees with them. They do not seem to read the New Testament - it all sounds like Old testament vengance. In fact you never hear 'love thy neighbour' or especially 'love thy enemy'. If they actually studied the words spoken by Jesus they would have to radically change their beliefs and behaviour.

The Bush government confused everyone about Islam and gave a right wing fundamentalist agenda to foreign policy. Blocked European attempts at an entente with Iran and of course invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was nothing to do with 9/11. After years of supporting Israel (right or wrong) against Palestine - is it any wonder that many Muslims feel persecuted and under pressure from the more extreme end of their culture?

I am not religious in this sense and do not support any terrorism - I cannot understand how anyone could blow up both themselves and anyone else and think it the right thing to do. But lets not be naive - which is what the main message in this thread is - governments divide us and we should seek to unite.

I wish that kunlun spont. chi gung is never spont. again.

Er ... yes ... its spont, more than spont, totally spont or not, depending on how you look at it. Again.

I wish I understood that wish.

NW - great,challenging questions as always, and I think I'll reply in my private practice area, soon.

 

Apepch7, good point. I would agree that the false ego is hogging the attention, and to shift the attention can help. (NLP, Ericksonian hypnotherapy, and Vipassana come to mind). Still, there are often force fields (disease entities) causing the symptoms that can't be destroyed that way, although the energy fields can be worked with.

If we posit an organizational self at the highest (or most subtle) field energy level - then might it not be possible that by removing 'false ego' you can let through a capacity to deal with those disease entities. In other words rather than a negative of removing our conscious interference we are allowing our own healing. Now I know the capacity to do this would vary hugely from being to being but I just wondered if this idea fits with your thinking.

I remember a homeopath that I used to know and a Chinese healer both saying the same thing - that ultimately we heal ourselves.

Thanks Neut that's interesting - I hope you will be able to write more in the future.

By saying all beings are energy is too broad. That doesn't really explain what "ghosts" are though.

I was replying to the idea that there was no being(s) at all but just energy - by saying that the beings that are - are that energy. That's all.

A.

Neut,

Spot on with that analysis I think.

Interested in how you use story telling as a practice - can you explain?

Thnx.

A.

Oh yeh! Love that stuff. Mind you my favourite was always... you can guess... 'A Wizard of Earthsea.' And there was 'The Book of Three' as well, very Welsh.

 

Way OT now but did you ever see 'The Dark Crystal'? Watched it again the other day, it's really good actually!

Yes i liked Ursula K. Le Guin(e?) and the Dark Crystal.

I never read fantasy any more - I don't know why. I think I have read LotR more times than is healthy for anyone.

No you have not offended me. I am just saying you used the word FU wrong.

 

FU is a talisman a piece of paper with sacred energy writtings by a taoist master. Not a "fix" or a "solution" only.

Mak Tin Si,

Can't you just do the FU for the Gossamer thing anyway - surely it doesn't depend on whether he is posting on here?

Sp is correct. The Mabinogion stories came out of a couple of different medieval manuscripts, one of which (The 'Red Book of Hergest') is collected in that four ancient books volume.

 

Mabinogion was not used as a name for that collection until later on, by Lady Charlotte Guest I think, first translator of those tales into modern English.

 

NW

Ah - read the Mab years ago - it was great. I love those Celtic stories - mind you I was also into Alan Garner those days - kids get all the best books (Owl Service and so on!).

Smash it up with a big hammer and you will find the truth.

 

You foolish humans are like pigs eating up your own poo!

 

Ha ha

You only need to smash things you are attached to.

Eat your own poo.

Ha ha.

Very interesting... You have my interest peaqued... Hmmm.

In the tomb of king tut there was a necklace said to raise the dead... The eye of horus was on the front, and the back piece had two djed symbols on either side of another ankh like symbol without arms or with arms down... some kind of ptah symbol

 

Wondering wht the significance of it was but, since the malachite beads were rough and unrefined it gave me a headache to hold.

 

If you have more and would like to write more about this at your leisure it would be awesome. It kind of has me doing more research of my own...

 

The matematic is interesting... It must be some type of mathematical school like the pythagoreans had or there might have been some kind of cult about it.. very cool.

 

Cool about the spitting that has simiiarities to african and asian healing (holy water) techniques....

I think the symbol you saw was this:

it is called 'tyet' and is known as the 'knot of Isis'. Egyptologists say it is a symbol of 'protection' which is as about as helpful as saying it is 'symbolic'. It is actually a 'yoni' symbol (to borrow from another tradition) and refers to the 'saving' nature of female sexual energy.

The djed pillar is a combination of phallus and backbone (the small cross pieces near the top are vertebrae). This is to do with Osiris becoming alive = erect. People talk about the resurrection of Osiris but actually following his death he became the king of the underworld (Foremost of the Westerners - west being the land of the dead) and his wife and her sister Isis and Nephthys managed to revive him sufficiently for him to conceive Horus. he then lived on through Horus his son.

Having found his body parts and assembled them Isis hovered over his corpse as a Kite (small bird of prey) and managed to induce an erection and ejaculation so she could get pregnant with Horus even though Osiris was technically dead. So you can see how powerful they regarded the inducing energy of the vagina!

You can take this as to do with the interaction of male female polarities - rather than a thumbs up for necrophilia .

Dumb ?: I don't get it - how are you getting the fractions?

Vortex its simply the way the Egyptians used the parts of the eye as symbols for fractions.

And does the sacred-geometrical idea enter your own assessment of this? I haven't read Schwaller de Lubicz but is he your kind of deal?

 

NW

de Lubicz had a lot of profound things to say about Egypt - but personally I stay away from his work because I find it 50% Egyptian and 50% his own ideas. Sacred geometry yes- because everything was sacred to them - but not like Euclid - the Greeks took the theory to another level IMO.

Nah, those are a couple of centuries later on and written in English. And as usual Hugo you have chosen the most expensive copy you can find!

 

The Black book of Carmarthen was written in Welsh. Bound together with some others it features as 'Four Ancient Books of Wales' eg:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-Ancient-Books...0023&sr=1-1

 

... as usual I've chosen the cheapest copy I could find lol.

 

There are also other early Arthurian romances like those of Chretien de Troyes:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Romances-...0093&sr=1-3

 

... these were written in French verse.

Well they would be favourite, but bottom line: no-one knows for sure.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Theres the Mabinogion (sp?) - or is that the same as the four books?

dive-bombing sparrows

harrying ravens home bound

sun black spectrums gleam

sun black spectrums gleam

rainbow feathers scratch the sky

Walking the crow road.

Fascinating.

 

Did the fractions actually appear in ancient texts? Another thing I've certainly never heard of before... NW

Yep - in mathematical papyri. Here's an example:

some people relate the parts of the eye to the five senses plus thought - this makes intuitive sense but I ahve never seen an Egyptian source for this idea. And different writers do it differently.

There is much in Egyptian mathematics which points to a divine interpretation - usually related to time measurement.

don't mind the traffic

go take the back road instead

hawks hunting the field.

hawks hunting the field,

rabbits should get radar or

eagle air support.

I'm a left liberal - but I'm in the UK so don't worry.