Apech

i think it probably works on multiple levels of meaning at once

You are right of course ... it could easily be about both meanings at once.

And moreover, (to speak of) the accumulation of water; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support a large boat. Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat. Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; the water is shallow and the boat is large. (So it is with) the accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings. Therefore (the peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient. As it seemed to bear the blue sky on its back, and there was nothing to obstruct or arrest its course, it could pursue its way to the South.

This bit seems to be saying that its not size itself that matters (thankfully ) but relative size. So everything needs to be understood in relation to something else. Its no good looking at a thing as just a thing ... you need to see it in relation to another thing or its environment.

So relative subjective truth again.

Yes/No ???????????

Whoah I seem to have precipitated an argument by asking what Peng and Ku meant. Thanks for the detail by the way. Funny that we should start by debating the meaning and interpretation of terms. What does it all mean? Maybe this question is actually what this is about. Is ZZ saying in a way ... I can give you fantastic stories about mythical entities of enormous size ... but what would that actually do for you? Humans need truth on a human scale.

I'm not convinced that this is about inner alchemy - I think its about the subjectivity of truth.

Brujo?

If they are from Brazil it would be 'bruxo' (pronounced broo-show). Ok I know I'm a smartass .

**** Moderation Message ****

Please read posts in blue above by me in conjunction with this message.

We have five active reports in this thread alone and one from the previous thread. Not all the reports are from the two protagonists. We think this whole issue has detracted from the previous discussion and in effect hijacked the forum from legitimate topics. We think there is a degree to which this has been on the one hand a deliberate attack but also that the responses have not been helpful. We would like to think that people come on here to have genuine informed discussion and not to attack each other.

In the end our decision is that Scotty is suspended from posting for 30 days. If he repeats his previous action of creating new accounts this is will result in a permanent ban - which will be enforced.

**** Mod Message ends ****

Mods, please in all seriousness put a muzzle on Scotty already... He clearly doesn't get that he is out of control and a loose cannon and clearly does not understand the difference between insult and slander. Insult is bad enough but Slander is far far worse and he keeps doing it.

 

My request now is this:

Remove ALL of Scotty's posts since this started in regards to ANY mention he makes of me. The cumulative disinformation is starting to pile up and now I am becoming legitimately concerned. If you choose not to discipline him, at the very least, monitor him until such time that he proves himself capable of acting with some sanity.

 

The overall combination of his continued slander and repeated statement of assumptions, conjecture concerning me, what he thinks I have said, my motives, my teachers, my history is becoming injurious to my reputation. And now I reluctantly feel the need to correct his disinformation about me. This should have been squelched as soon as I asked for help...

We moderate the forum ... we don't muzzle people. You can report posts and we consider what action to take. But please do not try to dictate the result by asking fro people to be banned or whatever that is not your decision. I realize you feel unjustly attacked and presumable angry about this but I think it would have been better to answer the accusations calmly and factually as you have done below. Remember third party readers don't know anything about you or your teachings and so they need facts to repudiate any accusations.

False. I have stated that the Celestial Qigong is derived from my Spirit Fighting training. It is not "watered down." Many techniques are derived directly from the spirit fighting techniques. Some is modified for qigong and meditation purposes but that does not reduce it's effectiveness. Those who have actually obtained the DVDs and spent time practicing it can speak for their own experiences. I have not posted the many testimonials I have received from people's experiences of it. Some techniques are my own creation but they are a result of years of dedicated practice of the original forms and are therefore authentic to the tradition...

 

False again. I have never said that it was "Made up" It is a modern interpretation on an Ancient spiritual path. I have documented my research and shared that all along.

 

False. The only thing I have alluded to (which is well known) is that my former MA teacher and I are estranged. I was certified by him almost 20 years ago. and for many years I was the only instructor he certified...in fact, I was his senior instructor for many years before moving away... and to my knowledge, that certification has not been removed. Up until my teacher and I parted ways, I was the senior instructor second only to him in his class...

 

False. Pure conjecture. Whatever similarities are coincidental. If I wanted to teach RP, I would have gotten certified by Max and taught it. As Scotty can attest it is not that hard to get a facilitator's certificate (at least when I met Max). I have great respect for Max's art and I have no need to compete with it. Scotty's inexperience is showing through with his assumption that anything that even remotely resembles what he is familiar with means it has been "lifted" or stolen from his art. I'm sure as he gets older and more experienced in other tradtions he will discover that many different traditions have shared similarities. This is just common sense. Anyone who has learned RP can easily see that there is only ONE general aspect that is remotely similar, the rest is completely different...

 

 

The only evidence is his opinion which is pure conjecture, twisting of facts to fit his agenda or outright misunderstanding on his part that he has made no effort to corroborate directly from me.

 

He did. The words are there in black and white.

 

Listen mods, this is getting silly. I should not have had to come in here and defend myself against these things that have been repeated numerous times after asking for help... After my first request for help, Scotty should not have been allowed to continue and even expanding on his original slander.

 

Even with all this I do not hold Scotty responsible. Scotty is the way he is and we all are familiar with him when he gets this way. The mods should have stepped in stopped him...

and Scotty's continued elaboration on his slander even in the midst of my previous silence to all the different points shows that whatever process is involved in moderation is not working. He needed to be leashed as soon as it became evident that he was resolute in continuing his slander.

 

If nothing is done to edit these things, for my own emotional and NOW professional well being I have no choice but to leave...

 

Time to take responsibility for our beloved forum...

 

Mike

Thanks for the response. I think this is how you could have responded earlier. I don't agree with the last part. Scotty is responsible for what he says, no-one else. We don't do 24/7 moderation we just look at reports and decide on action. Sometimes this is a bit slow because we are located round the world in different time zones. See below for mod decision.

Also something to take into consideration...

 

My view is that fiveelementtao felt like he was justified in flipping out on me, or that he could get away with it, due to my history with the moderation team.

 

That stuff is in the past, right? I think we're all trying to move forward, and get past these little disputes. Work it out ourselves. I eventually ended up doing my time back then with a 7 day suspension. At least personally, I'm trying to be a good member here, and not trying to mess with the mod team or be an insulting/destructive presence.

 

So anyway, that's that.

Sorry no. When you say you eventually ended up serving a 7 day suspension you forgot to mention that you spent several days spamming this forum with new accounts to post offensive messages. You were allowed back in because despite what some believe the moderation here is light and forgiving. At that time you were justly accused of provoking other users and it seems you may be doing the same now but remaining below the insult radar while doing.

Your record of behavior is taken into account ... sorry but that's just how it is.

Apech,

 

 

 

Okay, I am attempting to move on from what I consider to be a minor incident of bickering between two decent human beings/taobums...so...

 

Not really. He has essentially admitted in the past that his celestial neigong is very watered down and that his teutonic stuff is made up and not authentic.

 

He has also essentially admitted that he teaches without permission from Sifu Hata. This is something people should know regarding him...but it's also not a huge deal to teach without permission. Anyone can be a teacher if they decide to.

 

I also don't consider it stealing or cheating Max's Kunlun (despite using that terminology), by lifting the essentials from the basic version of red phoenix 2. He was trying to create something good based on another decent method...and is not trying to be a Kunlun teacher without permission. He doesn't credit the exact source, but oh well. I said "stealing" at the time because I was sick of his unwarranted emotional outbursts.

 

He was being compared to Max when I made this post, who people were saying didn't credit Jenny for yigong/kunlun...so it was pertinent to the discussion. A poster said that 5elementtao was very honest, and I disagreed based on that evidence I presented. I also really disagreed with an uncertified teacher like him being compared to a very legitimate teacher, as if their systems are on the same level of quality.

 

I think there may be a bit of personal dishonesty regarding the ancient symbols and ancestor spirits guiding him...was he deliberately lying about it? I don't think so...he seems to believe in it.

 

So a liar and a cheat? No, I didn't call him those things. But I did say what I said regarding his status as a teacher and the quality and content of his products. I think what I said is absolutely true, and not slanderous. It will not harm his reputation any more than his own attitude and conduct will. I think people should know about some of it (like how his teacher has not given him permission)...and that we should feel free to discuss the qualities of teachers and their products (as long as it's not insulting the person), without being threatened with lawsuits, moderation action, personal vendettas against us, etc. That is not the type of conduct that teachers should bring to this forum.

Thank you for replying.

You are free to discuss teachers and products factually or from personal experience of course. The issue of lawsuits is just a fact and I don't think anyone has threatened you with this - just pointed out that if you make statements which impact on someone's business in this way there is a potential for legal action. Moderation action is always a possibility since this is a moderated forum. I don't see any personal vendetta here but I do wish for this thread to finish as it is unproductive and ill tempered - even if it does provide entertainment for some.

You get to choose how much you want to read and how much time you want to spend. You can choose whatever specific points you perosnally want to focus on.

Well, no I don't because I don't know what the youtube links are until I watch them. I have a very slow connection and it takes an age to watch vids anyway ... so actually, for me, your message is lost quite often.

I think however, that ultimately I can only present information in my own way. I can't do it in anyone else's way. Different people like different things. For instance, there is a movement these days among some academic poeple, and especially younger people, the "Wikipedia generation", to want to read articles that just state things as simply and matter of factly as possible. They want the plaiin, dry, information. More and more people are starting to see anything with descriptive, imaginary, dramatic, mysterious, or beautiful language as being "rhetorical". Anything with any character is just "rhetoric" and "rhetorical" in their minds.

 

I very much do not like this. When I read or learn about something, I still like there to be some fun, mystery, and imagination involved. I like to be enticed, and once I am interested and enticed in, I want big pay offs. I like things to be built upon.

I'm not suggesting you dumb down anything ... and I don't see your objection to concise messages clearly stated. After all we are on an internet forum ... that's how it is ... short messages of interchange between different posters. I am only raising this with you because I think many people have formed the opinion that you are a) fundamentalist Christian and b ) a troll. Maybe this is partly due to the way you present information.

There certainly is some good evidence and logic out there that indicates pre-historic civilizations did exist.

 

But the thing is, nothing can ever be proven 100 percent. This is why I always say, strong disproof can be much more powerful than strong proof.

Of course it could be proven if the archeological evidence emerged. Look at Gobekli Tepe ... that's turned the traditional dating for stone working on its head ... if there were more finds of this kind then the theories would have to be drastically revised.

Until then a better theory could produce a model for human dispersion which fits all the facts based on a pre-ice age civilization .. why not?

First off , I like the way Marblehead is setting about this. One section at a time with a chance to discuss. Thanks to him for taking the time and care to do this.

Anyone know if Kun and P'eng have any literal meanings in Chinese?

I have a feeling that ZZ is talking about myth and abstract concepts ... big ideas if you like and what you get from them and what you don't get from them. I heard an astrophysicist on the radio saying yesterday that the numbers they deal with are so incredibly huge that they are completely meaningless to most humans.

I need to read the original again I think ... ths was off the top of my head (not a very big head).

Scotty,

Just help me on this. When you said:

His Teutonic stuff is almost entirely made up...the rest of it is connecting the dots when there really is no connection. He claims that his ancestor spirits guided him, but anyone with a discerning eye can tell otherwise.

 

He has posted fraudulent history here regarding ancient symbols and this tradition.

 

The HUUL breath mantra is just red phoenix level 2 stolen and modified a bit. Where is the acknowledgement? Where is his certification to teach and modify Kunlun methods?

 

Moreover, where is his certification from his maoshan teacher? From what I understand, the teacher disowned him and told him not to teach!

 

This isn't even touching the "Celestial Neigong" stuff, which is absolute crap.

Were you calling 5ET a liar and cheat ... or not?

**** Moderator Message *****

We have had a number of reports (from both 'sides') relating to the current issue between Scotty and 5ET. TTBs does not support any particular school of practice and is an open forum for discussion of spiritual matters including different systems and lineages. It does not also necessarily support or hold the views of expressed by individuals on here. Normal etiquette between genuine practitioners is to respect other people's system even if not agreeing with it. It is ok of course to point out where one might think weaknesses exist in the other persons approach.

However it is not helpful to get into personalized disputes and/or to deliberately attack another poster on here or to troll threads for this purpose. The moderation team is discussing action and such action if and when it is taken will be geared to ensuring that TTBs is what it should be, that is a open forum where people are free to express their views without being attacked or goaded into action (including leaving the forum). In other words to protect the reputation of TTBs as a good place to come for information and debate.

Anyone who thinks this place is for perpetuating disputes will probably face a long suspension - which will be strictly enforced.

Apech for Mod Team

**** Mod Message Ends ****

Good job with the forum Aaron and Marbles. I agree that it's a wonderful addition to the Bums.

Seconded.

It's just what I like and how I would like to see information presented if I was reading it. I like to give just a little bit, give some explanation, my perspective, but not too much. Then the citations and links can be like "Oh, I see what you are saying now".

Its much better when you explain where you are coming from. More text from you and less quotes would improve your message which is not always being understood. I don't know about other people but I don't have time to watch all those youtube links.

The second video shows a woman trying to make the controversial new genetic evidence fit into the most conservative and conventional scientific theories possible, as best she can. In the end, there are still objections and contradictions with her attempt to salvage the old migration theories.

 

So there is a saying, "if you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the answer". In scientific circles, when a major scientific theory has become no longer feasable, scientists of the alternative or newer theories will now say thiers are "the only game in town".

Yes I get that. But nothing is proved there is just a big question. The thing is that there is a lot of evidence to support the standard dispersion theory and there is some evidence which is very difficult to fit into it. Someone needs to demonstrate how a pre-existing lost civilization can be a better fit to all the evidence not just some of it. I find it very frustrating that the alternative history researchers do not do this ... i.e. posit an alternative and yet scientifically based model.

I4L,

Can I suggest something? Less is more. You post some quite interesting stuff (mixed with some not so interesting (to me at least)). Why don't you try to summarize the point you are making in the first post and then add the links and so on which you feel justify your view?

For instance the two vids which you say "Genetic evidence of how humans migrated in prehistory is consistent with the existence of prehistoric civllization-" ... do no such thing. The first points out that the presence of haplo-group X in plains indians does not fit with dispersion theory but the second repeats the dispersion theory. The mitochondrial DNA does throw up an interesting problem as to how it got from the middle east to the US. From that theories can be developed which may include a pre-existing lost civilization.

If you had just posted this it would have been an interesting point for debate but these great long posts of yours are just overwhelming really and also seem to repeat a lot.

A.

I have sent them interviewees an email in the past and I have never heard back from them. I wonder why he is so secretive?

Try his publisher and/or literary agent .. they may be willing to pass messages on. If you demonstrate genuine interest in his work and have pertinent questions he would have to have armor plating not to want to respond.

Aaron,

I think you will need to PM Sean as he is the only one who can set up or delete the permissions for modding.

Duh

 

We're supposed to add to the list I think.

Oh right! ha ha

8. The noble truths for our times can not be spoken (or written).

9+. Please refer to No.8.

Why are there only 7 of the '10 Noble Truths' ?

DNA is racist, or so say easily offendeed individuals who would prefer to overlook the topic of discussion in favor of the undesirable information presented in an informative manner, to retire it to "racism".

 

 

Let's stop worrying about such infantile woes and focus more on the relevant data: That DNA does not support evolution on the basis of all humanity originating from Africa, or as dark skinned people.

 

 

IF that were true, after all, then it would suggest that blacks are the most inferior evolution of humanity, and this post suggests the exact opposite, that we are ALL EQUAL.

 

 

 

WHAT retardation did it take to misunderstand that?!?

 

{Edit:}

Case in point:

 

 

 

So... maybe literacy is one's best friend.

 

A picture may say a thousand words, but a caption can omit the irrelevant ones!!!

{/Edit:}

OK maybe I'm retarded and illiterate ... just to help me then can someone explain how you would divide humanity into races and what would be the defining characteristics of those races? A list would help.

I would like to move this to Off Topic because its not really Taoist Discussion.

Any objections????

Ah! Mal! We need you.

Wow! Way to go Apech!

Oh well, guess I'll keep a lid on my curiosity on that one:-)

I never forget my oath as a moderator ...

So whats this guys problem anyway ?

His problem is that he is you.

Where is your here? Your house? Your room? Maybe your body?

Where in your body? Your hand? Are you your hand? Maybe collection of impulses in your head and your nervous system is where your are? Can I cut open your body and pull your out? Everyone has nerves blood and bones but that can't be where you are. You are not your body. Where are you? Such a simple question, how do you answer it?

Yes please it's very gooey in here. Thanks.