Apech

The point has already been made in the thread in General Discussion that the idea of an 'unbroken' Hermetic lineage is a false one. And in the sense of a recorded line of authentic teacher to pupil transmission I think this must be the case as, as far as I am aware no such thing exists.

For a long time the Hermetic Texts themselves were viewed as a kind of neo-Platonic invention, whereby the ancient writers had falsely planted Ancient Egyptian origins on top of Neo-Platonist (therefore Greek thought) and so any tradition which suggested that hermeticism did indeed have its origin in Egypt and Sumer was an invention. However more recent academic examination of the Corpus and the discovery of Hermetic texts at Nag Hammadi has shown that there was a third strand of thought alongside early Christianity and Gnosticism attributed to Hermes Trismegistus and having recognisable and different world view. In fact even the early Church Fathers cited these texts as evidence that the ancients knew of the trinity before the Xtian church was founded.

The person of Hermes Trismegistus is now viewed as not necessarily a single author and indeed not even a 'human' source at all. Rather as in vajrayana Buddhism the origin of teachings is often quoted as a spiritual entity of some kind, so H.T. can be viewed. He is though also viewed as an ancient sage/magician with ante-diluvian wisdom passed down through he ages.

The tradition of the Corpus was preserved through the Middle Ages largely by Arabic scholars and rediscovered along with science and philosophy in the Renaissance. As a third stand of thought it is often overlooked ... although in those days there was less of a gap between say alchemy and chemistry ... a true difference did not emerge until the 18 century ... so the likes of Newton also studied astrology and so on ...

Two strands in Hermeticism were also separated geographically. In Italy a version more akin to Neo-Platonism was studied, based largely on the translations by Ficino while north of the Alps a more practical alchemical style based largely on the Emerald Tablet was developed.

The ideas pervaded western thought and culture in a way which contrasted but complemented the growth of Rationalism and the orthodoxy of the Church. Poets and artists particularly drew on it for inspiration .... everything from Shakespeare to the Magic Flute show influences which come directly from Hermeticism.

I agree entirely.

Both Adam and Eve were equal opportunity parents.

Cucumbers though, good vegetable for discussion of lineage as a metaphor for dispersion of knowledge.

Cucumbers were known to be cultivated around 3,000 BCE in Egypt

Didn't reach France til the 9th Century

First recorded under cultivation in England in the 14th century and it took another 200 years for them to reach north America.

You can eat cucumbers, they have a market value; but arcane knowledge has less culinary or financial use and is consequently so much the less popular.

Just imagine then how hermeticism did or did not travel, how; and over what time scale.

No way can there be any unbroken hermetic lineage-knowledge outside of someone's imagination.

I think I'll start a thread in Hermetic sub on this cos I don't want to be accused of cucumbering this thread.

Blonde Chinese here.

Careful where you tread with this one though though lest you step into a big steaming pile of eugenics.

http://blogs.discove...s/#.UM7rznwgGSM

 

One of our chaps an archaeologist and part time spy, Sir Auriel Stein (possibly the model for Indiana Jones) discovered the blonde mummies back in 1910 and the Nazis went to town making what they could of his discoveries some quarter of a century later. Which was ironic in a way as Stein was born a Hungarian of Jewish ancestry.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummies.htm

Tocharian Mummies are interesting ... but I despise the racial theories of man's development. We are all the same species and share the same heritage.

Apech,

 

I know you know a lot about Egypt, but I have yet to figure out how you used Egyptian magic to get me off my track and into something I wasn't talking about to begin with. Paper, papyrus -- how did we get to papyrus and Egypt from "a piece of paper means more in terms of a Chinese taoist lineage transmission than does a piece of paper to a European/Eurocentric cultivator of non-lineage eclectic (new age) traditions," which is what I was actually talking about?..

 

What you had to offer was very interesting but it did magically change the subject to a cucumber... I don't know if this old joke from my old country is known elsewhere in the world -- basically it's a recipe for finding one's way out of any question one doesn't know the answer to or doesn't care to answer: you learn absolutely everything about just one subject, anything, e.g. cucumbers, and then find a way to switch whatever is being discussed to the discussion of cucumbers, where you can truly shine. E.g., if the question is, "Who was Alexander of Macedonia's teacher?" and you don't know, you go, "Alexander of Macedonia had a remarkable teacher. Macedonia was highly developed since ancient times, with flourishing culture rooted in the most advanced agrarian practices of the time. The land produced many fruits and vegetables -- olives, apples, tomatoes, cucumbers... A cucumber (Cucumis sativus) is a widely cultivated plant in the gourd family Cucurbitaceae. It is a creeping vine which bears cylindrical edible fruit when ripe. There are three main varieties of cucumber: "slicing", "pickling", and "burpless". Within these varieties, several different cultivars have emerged. The cucumber is originally from India but is now grown on most continents. Many different varieties are traded on the global market..." and so on.

 

By the way, I know who Alexander's teacher was and who his teacher was, and who his teacher's teacher was... that's another Eurocentric tradition, to care very much about lineages of the rich and famous only, I mean, really, really care -- ask any European royalty whether they care about their lineage... and then ask them if they care about yours. And then try this with the Chinese, for comparison. You will be shocked... So, you're right, they studied in Egypt, not necessarily in Alexandria... I didn't mean "literally every single one of them" to be taken literally, should have phrased it so it's clear I'm using an emphatic statement as to the origin of their knowledge in Egypt (Alexandria has come to mean things not limited to geography or chronology). And no, Pythagoras was not "flat out Chinese" (another emphatic statement not to be taken literally) -- what I was trying to emphasize was that he knew what he knew from Chinese teachers who taught Egyptians who taught the Greeks. (And by the way, our beloved Fibonacci sequence is of the same -- documented -- origins, Leonardo Fibonacci learned it from an Arab mathematician who learned it from his Chinese teacher...)

And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? 5We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: 6But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, beforeour eyes.

No magic at all I assure you. I wish I knew more about Egypt a lifetimes study has only scratched the surface.

 

I hope the quality is good enough to read clearly. I took the picture with a camera phone rather than scanning it to avoid having to flex the spine.

Thanks! Interesting. Will have to ponder. Correspondances between systems always give rise to these kinds of ?what's the word? questionabilities.

Heaven

##########

##########

##########

Ch'ien

#### #### {had #### #### Water

Fire #### #### Li, this ########## Tui {water

########## is Chen} ########## usually

is K'an}

Sun

########## {had Chen,

#### #### this is Li}

##########

########## ##########

Air ########## Sun #### #### Earth

#### #### #### #### Ken

Moon

#### ####

########## K'an

#### ####

ah right some 'mistake' here ... Joyous lake is called water and water is called moon, thunder is called fire ... Fire in in the centre ...

... so are these mistakes or just some strange interpretation?

Turgid.

 

I'm enjoying reading it. Must mean I'm of turbid mind today:-)

 

No, rather what I enjoy more are his mid-phrase notings of concurrent systems and similarities and references. Given I tend naturally that way (and of course DA BUMZ has fostered it too) I feel quite at home with turgid.

 

I was hoping for some discussion and insights into his hexagram errors.

Well I guess it just reads a little clumsy compared to the elegance of most translations. But he was clearly putting a lot of thought/work into his version and cross relating a lot of ideas/images ...

Not sure about the hexagrams ... who says they are wrong and why. Such a statement would depend on having greater insight than the Great beast himself. In symbolic language there's hardly ever a right and wrong just a myraid echoes of truth.

Tell me ... does Dzogchen involve having to have the last word?

It's now, now, and now

Welcome to the shared present

H'ordeurve? Wait right here...

H'ordeurve? Wait right here...

This product does contain nuts.

Would you like yours crushed?

I had really hoped that this might turn out to be a thread for intelligent discussion on Crowley's TTC instead of just a preemptive opportunity to discredit the man and his works. I have found moderate use in his writings and methods, and based on biographical information in Perdurabo, the assertion that he was not in China in 1906 goes directly against documented data. Why bother to post this in Hermetic at all if your only interest was to shit on it?

No offense intended.

Never heard of the term.

 

Are they poisonous too?

You have turned into a boxing chicken ... this is getting confusing.

Do you think so K?

I found it a bit turgid to read.

Flowing Hands version is much more poetic.

Do remember that the old rogue was a complete con man, he no more 'walked in China' than my cat can dance a tango. Closest he got to China was in 1902 scrapping with his mate halfway up K2, as you can read on page 123 here...

http://www.amazon.co...&qid=1355674908

 

Excellent new biog on AC just published is well worth looking at too....

http://www.amazon.co...01&sr=1-3-fkmr0

turgid is an understatement ...

The Tao resembleth the emptiness of Space; to employ it, we must avoid creating ganglia.

watch out for that ganglia chaps!

The Xtians were pretty good at morphing extant deities into their pantheon when they took over.

Plenty of Saxon churches round here are built on earlier presumably sacred earthworks and ritual sites many along what have become known as 'ley' lines and might have been earlier pre-Xtian ritual routes or some such.

Phil Rickman the novelist covers a lot of that area in a most entertaining yet informed way.

Aleister Crowley was one of the leading mountaineers of his day.

Not a lot of people know that but it's true.

He pioneered techniques and kit still in use today for difficult traverses of overhangs.

The magician schtick was a bit of a hobby towards meeting gullible rich women and getting laid.

Alan Watts the Theosophist mage was much the same with the Buddhism.

Anyone claiming hermetic gnosis these days is deluded or a con man, possibly both; as all of it is either re-imagining or simply made up.

Funny if slightly too cynical for my taste

I don't agree about the hermetic transmission ... it definitely occurred but of course all you hear about is the likes of Mr. Crowley. But even he knew a thing or two ... he liked to play tricks though ...

I'm too arrogant to confess to something like that.

Marbles,

Your avatar ... is it a bunch of roses or a blue carrot? What are you trying to say here? LOL.

@Mithshrike .. damn you are hard!

It was sort of common knowledge, far as I recall from my university course in the history of philosophy, but that was so long ago that I'd have to saddle myself with more homework than I bargained for to really "go there." One interesting fact for your consideration though: the universal western belief that Alexander founded Alexandria in the middle of nowhere is quite without merit. In reality he merely expanded the already existing and active town, Rhakotis, or Râ-Kedet, established before the fourth century B.C. in the area subsequently developed as Alexandria. It was an active port for centuries before Alexander.

The likes of Plato were said to have studied in Egypt but not Alexandria. Rhacotis was chosen by Alexander as the result of a dream influenced by reading Homer and (more likely) because it was a deep water port suitable for habourage for sea going ships. he is said to have laid out the ground plan for the city himself and deliberately made it a Greek city and cultural centre. there were of course Greeks in Egypt long before this ... and Egypt had by then been conquered by the Persians anyway. Rhacotis was said to be small and insignificant especially compared with the previous capital Naucratis.

I think the idea that Pythagoras was Chinese is influenced by a very similar Chinese proof of Pythagoras' theorem in China. But of course as Pythagoras' theorem is true a similar geometric proof does not mean that the same person formulated them.

There is absolutely no doubt that Egypt influenced the Greeks enormously. Since it was already so ancient by the time they were formulating the ideas for which they became famous. The Egyptians regarded them as child-like with restless minds.

One of the reasons that Egypt became the conduit for wisdom from the ancient world is that it survived the collapse of the late bronze age. In around 1200 BC the other extant civilisations the pre-classical Greeks, the Hittites and the MInoans were wiped out possibly by natural disasters but definitely by attacks from the so-called Sea People. The Sea People were a group of nine tribes who marauded the Mediterranean coast during this time. By the time they got to Egypt though, the then king Ramessses III was ready and he trapped them in a river estuary and destroyed them ... thus saving Egypt from the same fate as the other great Bronze Age cultures. Little is known about the fate of the surviving Sea People ... although they had become a spent force and no longer a threat. Egyptian records indicate that one of the tribes went to the Levant and became the Philisitines (Palestinians) ... so we have to assume that the Sea People were semitic although it is speculated they originated in the area of Sardinia.

What eventually did for the Egyptians was of course Christianity or more particularly the Christianised late Roman Empire. Strangely Christians like to paint themselves as the great civilisers and preservers of culture and reason. Whereas they were completely the opposite - the Taliban of their day - they burned down the Serapeum in Alexandria where the remnants of the great library were housed, they closed the temples and desicrated them. They did their best to destroy our legacy. But even as they did so ... in Egypt the new Christian churches and the saints worshiped in them took on some of the features and powers of the old gods. If you take for instance the imagery of Mary and Child Jesus this is a copy of Isis and Horus and so on ... so despite the attempted cultural genocide by the Christians somehow the influence persisted.

No, not everything. But Egypt was looted bare. You seem to be doing exactly what I object to -- counting Egypt as something "Western" just because we took so much from it and made "our own." How Western is Egypt?.. All Greek philosophers studied in Egypt, at Alexandria -- I mean, literally every single one of them. That, at the height of the Great Silk Road cross-polinating Egypt and China -- I've read some research that seems to point toward Pythagoras having been flat out Chinese, how's that? And the rest of them may have realistically had a few -- or scores -- of teachers who were taoists, for all we know. (That's the thing -- when lineages are destroyed, libraries burned, scholars murdered, what remains is second best at best. And more often than not it's the perpetrators themselves who rewrite history as soon as they derail it. Support their claim to legitimacy thus achieved?.. Not me.) But we don't write that in our history books. We write "The Greek Miracle," we make sure we Westernize the miracle and never mention its real source. And nonchalantly make Egypt, when looking for "our" roots, as "Western" as Alabama. Not all stolen? I sometimes wonder...

Well of course Egypt is actually African. Its roots are in the first peoples to leave the once fertile Sahara and settle in the Nile Valley ... sites like Nabta Playa show this and are dated to maybe 10,000 - 8,000 BC (rough dates) ... these same people went on to found the great Dynastic culture. The legacy of the Egyptian wisdom is in the writings of Hermes Trismegistus which went on to influence the history of European culture (the renaissance etc.). So in this sense it is Western.

When Alexandria was built (about 300 BC) Egypt was already several thousand years old (Dynastic period starts about 3100 BC) and what the Greeks came to learn there was a kind of melting pot of ideas from the ancient world (Egypt and Sumer), jewish mysticism and Greek philosophy such as neo-platonism.

I can't see any evidence that all greek philosophers studied in Alexandria in fact some like Socrates, Pythagoras and Heraclitus seem to pre-date Alexander himself so I don't see how this can be so.

yes paper was invented by the Chinese ... the date given is usually around 104 AD. Egyptian papyrus, from which the word paper comes started at least by Dyn 1 so about 3000 BC although it is speculated that it was in use from around 4000 BC. So not everything western is stolen I think.

VERY!!!

 

 

 

That's hard!

Well, I understand how you are feeling...but thinking rationally, the young children that died yesterday were actually brought up in an environment where violence and guns weren't allowed. As far as I'm aware, guns were banned in that school. And look what happened.

 

I understand that coming from a totally different cultural mindset, you assume that guns and (bad) violence go hand in hand...rather than being aware of the reality, that self defense (which doesn't necessarily include violence) is preferable over being defenselessly slaughtered.

 

I don't want to argue any more than this. I'm still trying to deal with hearing about it...and trying to not discuss politics or other controversial things these days, for my cultivation. So, sorry for getting involved in the discussion.

I value reading your opinions/thoughts I find it helpful to hear different views and try to understand them ... and also respect your wish to withdraw.

From US v Miller:

 

 

 

 

 

How can it be thought as unnecessary, after yesterday? That's a weird argument, Apech.

yes that quote shows I think that the right to bear arms was viewed in the context of a 'well regulated militia' ... I realise you don't agree with this but it is a rational argument.

Its not a weird argument ... its a feeling or preference based on how I would like to see young children brought up ... i.e. not thinking violence and guns are either normal or necessary in an environment away from war or hunting etc.

Well, I attempted to show how it doesn't fit at all...but it's all good. If you're actually interested, you can look into it some more with an open mind. I'm sure there are books or articles you can read that discuss the actual meaning.

I have read about it and know therefore that although your interpretation is the current one, there is an alternative and case law history which suggests something closer to the one I was suggesting (e.g. US v miller). So when you speak of actual meaning ... it is the case that different people have understood it differently at different times.

Maybe so. I really don't know, and only heard that gun argument recently. It was said that the Nazis avoided Switzerland mostly because of that...but it could have been also that they bought themselves peace. Maybe a combination of both...who really knows? History is written by some guys named Victor.

Also I would add that Switzerland is alpine terrain difficult to conquer and part german speaking anyway ... so there's lots of reasons that Mr. Hitler didn't bother.

Yes really. What's so scary about armed guards? The one at my high school was really nice. Their presence doesn't bring violence into a school...but protection. They could have put a stop to this thing early on, instead of 20 defenseless kids and some others dying. Most of these mass shootings are happening because there isn't anyone carrying concealed in the area. If someone were, it wouldn't be a mass shooting.

 

You can't take the guns out of the hands of criminals. It's a black market...making laws, confiscating, etc, has no effect. It's like the war on drugs - they are everywhere. I can go out in my city today and find pretty much any drug I want, despite them being highly illegal. With guns, I'm sure in most American cities, you could ask around and eventually find an illegal firearm. Maybe one that used to be legal, but the serial was scratched off. I even found directions online for making your own, if you have the right equipment. With a few thousand, anyone can do it and no one would know it's happening. People could smuggle guns in from Canada or Mexico, or on boats. If guns were totally illegal, except for law enforcement and military, you'd probably hear of a lot of cases of those guns being stolen.

 

I understand why people would want to abolish all guns. It would make them feel safe if there are no dangerous things around (apparently those people totally trust government and police). But it's impossible...it wouldn't work due to criminals not giving a fuck about the law...it would weaken the law abiding people of the country, making them defenseless against all things...and it's in clear writing: shall not be infringed.

 

I think people who don't live in this country don't really comprehend what it's like here. We were founded on entirely different principles than what most of the world is used to...unfortunately, there are many Americans who would still rather have someone lording over them than to taste freedom. What's said of us to the international world is incredibly misleading, most of the time. I guess, it's easy to be a critic of another country...I'm extremely critical of the UK for instance...but it's not like I really know what it's like to be there.

I'm not extremely critical ... or even critical of the US generally ... I'm suppose I'm critical of some of its foreign policy but then when I think of the alternatives ... well I'd rather America as the superpower than anywhere else because of 'individual liberty and rule of law'. I'm not sure why you are 'extremely critical' of the UK but it sounds like you haven't been there. But I am sure there's plenty to dislike about if you so choose. Generally I would say we have similar values but the way in which our cultures have evolved is different ... so the result is different.

Personally i would not like to send a young child to school where the presence of armed guards was thought necessary. That is if I had a choice. generally speaking the police in the UK are not armed ... while the criminals often are ... but they still manage to deal with it in most cases.

Sometimes I wonder what foreigners are taught about US history when they are growing up. (I should probably take a look at today's curriculum for kids )

 

 

I was probably taught more about American history than you were about European history ... although obviously I don't know what you were taught. But I do know that the US has been very inward looking for a long time now.

The phrasing of the 2nd amendment it seems to me specifically talks about a well regulated militia and it is those which chose to ignore this that have formulated the current interpretation. Ok yes, perhaps the founding fathers were trying to prevent an overbearing government or dictatorship ... that's seems reasonable ... but the context is groups of sensible people with muskets standing up for their right of self determination.

These kinds of events (the shooting) occur in a lot of places not just the US. There have been examples in England, Germany and Norway for example so I am not trying to say that it is something totally specific to the US or that the US is a bad place ... just a very big place with a lot of personal freedom ... for which I am thankful. What i am trying to suggest is that looking for a response to this awful event without thinking about controlling in some way the availability of the weapons which allow them to happen seems quite odd.

BTW I realise you started the OP with 'prayers' but the title of the thread calls your democratically elected president (2nd term) Obomba ... as if he somehow was part of the problem while actually i suspect he is just wrestling to find a solution which is acceptable to most people ... like any sane human would do.