Apech

Well, Shucks! There are some things I just don't know and don't even have enough knowledge of to form an opinion. So, yes, sometimes I will dodge your bullets. Hehehe.

Ok here's an easier one ... what is matter?

Human sentience is just an aspect of sentience. Without sentience, not necessarily human sentience, there would be no knowledge. So a lifeless piece of rock floating in space may or may not exist, but without a sentience being aware of it, its existence will be unknown, in fact unknowable.

K's pet rock has an astronaut cousin!

That's not a fair request. Even the masters of the field are up in arms arguing with each other as to what it is and where it comes from.

That's right keep dodging my bullets ... metaphorically ...

I'll go ask the rock :-)

 

Edit: rock said I'm a young fool who knows nothing and it was a stupid question (me, not the rock).

Is it a sage rock?

methinks the white cat is barking up the right tree...

This cat is barking all right ...

Thanks Apech. Nice to see an actual word for my current affliction of perspective and that there's a philosophy for everything:-)

 

How's about 'entropy' as a throw in :-) ?

Entropy is the degree of disorder in a system - which tends to increase over time unless energy is put in to give structure. Thus the earth because of the input of the sun's light/heat is in a reverse entropy phase ... this energy is captured by plants and put into the chemical structure of their metabolisms ... animals eat the the plants and so on ... feeding energy up the food chain to allow more and more complex structures to be formed (e.g. human brain). You could even argue that rocks on being subject to heat and cold ... causing exfoliation etc. form the basis for soil ... feeding the bacteria which feed the plants also ... so your pet rock may one day be sacrificed as part of this great enterprise.

PS.. I still want to hear from the materialists ... where they say sentience/consciousness comes from ...

Hi,

I meant what is 'now Iran' ... not 'not Iran' BTW ... rubbish typing as usual.

Something in the back of mind says gold jewelry ... or was that the Thracians ... ??? I'm going to have to google ... got any links about those graves?

Well, water does have something going for itself. As far as we know there would be no life on this planet without it.

I know we have done this before but I am going to ask anyway. If the objective world comprises insensate material (like rocks) then were and when does consciousness arise? And I mean sentience and not human consciousness. How can something that is not sentient become sentient ... explain this with the laws of physics ... its genuine question not rhetorical ....

I agree with effilang (and phosphor).

Important thing is not to focus on the 'physical' sensations ... just do the practice.

Do you mean Scythian? ... not that I know anything about them ... but I think they lived in what is not Iran ... horses, nomads that kind of thing.

Hi folks,

I'm going to lock this thread now because it was just for the poll really. The result shows that the majority of voters are happy with I4L posting in General Discussion (with the option of Off Topic for PUA (if you really must)). Obviously normal mod rules apply but apart from that ... the few who object to his posts well I guess ignore is the best option. I4L please don't flood the board though ...

On the issue of subs and the stifling of debate ... I think now we have the subs we will have to learn to use them well. They seem to serve a purpose for some people and some topics ... but its an open forum and its not about the views of individuals dominating its about open, frank, respectful, humorous, sometimes tangential discussion. If you don't like subs then use the general ... its up to you ... make this place what you want it to be.

PS. If you want to continue this debate please start another thread - I'm just closing this cos of the poll.

If you search on here or google 'thetaobums I ching' you'll get some helpful stuff and links I think.

I use Stephen Karcher 'Total I Ching' a lot and also wilhelm ... also have Wang Bi trans by Lynne.

If you want to study you should start with the 'Great Treatise' - start by examining the lines, the pairs and the trigrams to see how they build to the 64 hexagrams ... after gaining an understanding of yin and yang of course. A lifetimes study ... the more you look the deeper it goes ... also use it as an oracle so you can engage with it through real experience in daily life.

My 2 c.

,,,,

 

edit- And I also don't want this to be taken out of context. I like you Apech, you're a nice person and you've always been gracious and helpful, so this isn't meant to be a personal attack on your character, because that wouldn't be fair, but rather just the climate I see forming on this forum lately. Same goes for the other mods. Yeah, I've butted heads on some occasions, but I genuinely like each and every one of you. My comments aren't meant to be anti-mod or anti-Taobums, but rather about the general attitude lately.

Don't worry I'm not offended ... I like you too. I am bit surprised by all this because I thought things were going swimmingly in the subs.

I would say .... vote with your feet (metaphorically) and use the General Discussion to start the debate you want to have.

I think the subs were meant to be a quiet reading room away from the hub-bub. Some people were finding that they might ask a genuine question about Taoism say, only to be told that they should not be asking that question but another one about a different system or the person's own view of reality or whatever ...

@manitou ... I hear you. TTBs does not have an official view of what is orthodox ... not even about Taoism. Its not here to express an individual's views - and I wonder if this is something that is happening unconsciously rather than meant to be excluding people. Like you I study different systems and generally make my own way based on what I have realized (believe it or not lol). I think the structure of TTBs is there to be used creatively ... so I hope the general dis. will return to its previous liveliness (but no aggressive stuff I hope).

How do you know we're just a vocal minority? I look at the number of votes that are against moving I4L's threads to a different section as possible evidence, we're not such a minority, but rather more like a half and half split. In the end the group with the most influence will win out in the end. This isn't a democracy anyways, it's a private site, so whatever the mods decide will be the end decision. I'm just making a point that I see a real degradation in the quality of discussions since this shift and most of it has to do with the subtle version of censorship that's going on. And again, the bias against other philosophies in the special sections is one of the reasons I don't participate.

 

Aaron

I don't accept the 'subtle version of censorship' idea at all and am surprised if anything we have done comes across as that. We moderate almost 100% on spam and conduct (i.e. insults and so on) ... I hold my hands up to moving one thread on race to the Pit ... maybe I was being a bit oversensitive ... but we never delete, edit out or stop ideas. The whole idea of this poll is to find a place where ideas that some object to can be expressed ... not to sweep them under the carpet somehow.

All the subs were created in response to requests from members ... it wasn't a top down decision. It was what people said they wanted. In fact the example of the TTC sub made us think it would work.

Anyway .. so far ... it looks like General Discussion is ok for most of I4L's stuff (with the exception of PUA) ... with maybe some of the more oblique stuff in Off Topic.

Vote now if you want to express your opinion ... I'll probably close this poll tomorrow sometime.

Thanks to all for the good discussion by the way ... its interesting to hear what you all are thinking.

A.

.... <snip>

 

I also don't see why it would even matter if he WAS a Christian Creationist Fundy? General Discussion seems basically for any eclectic, "non-Taoist, spiritual" thought that doesn't belong in "Taoist Discussion," no?

Yes, basically ... I like it that General Discussion is as broad as possible ... for instance I put some science articles there if I think they have some kind of spiritual aspect ...

Like I tried to say above ... people report stuff and we are just trying to see what people want ... Christian mysticism would be def 'in' ... but if (for the sake of an example) we got bombarded with fundamentalist propaganda then I think that would be 'out'.

>> More general point ... if subs are stifling debate ... then don't use them ... if you want to discuss the subtleties of Chuang Tzu in a peaceful setting go to the sub ... if you want to question the validity of things (or whatever) then go to general ...this way we all get what we want yes/no?????

I'm sort of disillusioned with The Tao Bums recent descent into segregation. I long for the days of the old General Discussion, when everything could be found here, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. I don't visit the other sections, because I don't want to be hem hawed into discussing something from one point of view. I think a lot of people do the same. Oh well, perhaps that's just me.

 

I really see this as another way to censor what's in the general discussions area to appease people who don't want to listen to it. First we created the Taoist Discussion section so Taoists didn't have to deal with Buddhists, then we created a Buddhist section so Buddhists wouldn't have to deal with Taoists. The thing that I find upsetting about both sections is that there is no freedom of expression, you can only talk about approved topics, an example being the fellow who responded to a topic in the Buddhist forum with a Vendanta based understanding being told that his view wasn't appropriate for that forum/thread and that he needed to go to the Vendanta section.

 

I'm just waiting for a Christian, Islam, and Jewish section, then no one will have to read anything that they don't want to. Essentially the Tao Bums is becoming Orwellian to me, which is kind of disheartening. Maybe we should all read Fahrenheit 451 again?

 

Aaron

? the first recently created sub was for the TTC - you were one of the ones who pressed for it and were a moderator. Don't you think you are applying a double standard here?

However I agree with your overall point and don't want to suppress debate. In fact the opposite - I want a place for I4L's stuff where everyone is ok with it and we stop getting reports objecting to it. I'm not trying to stop the posts at all.

More votes please ...

Nice ... thanks.

Dear Fellow Taobums,

We (the mod team) have received a number of reports about the threads started by Immortal4life on various subjects but usually relating to alternative pre-history or intelligent design. The objections vary but usually concern the subject matter, which some think is not legit for this forum, the length of the threads and the number of them.

For some time we have been trying to resolve this by finding a suitable home for them on here - the last attempt being the articles section. But this seems to have caused some concern in itself.

So we have decided to ask for views from the TaoBumariat as to where you would like to see them posted. It would be a great help if you could vote on the poll and give us an idea as to what would suit most people.

Leave comments on here also if you wish ... but please be respectful.

Thanks.

Apech for Mod Team

INTJ

Me and Hillary Clinton apparently : (

Oh and it says I'm a Mastermind ... ha!

Hi

What goes around comes around.

Did you know that spit don't make babies?

No I thought that's exactly how babies are made.

Welcome to TTbs

Enjoy your stay.

I'm just an asshole who loves to have the last word.

 

It's also a taunt to people to keep it going. Because if they keep going, they go against what they previously said- which shows lack of integrity with their words.

 

If they stick to their word and leave, I get the last word.

 

So either way, I win

 

If you really didn't care, then it wouldn't matter. If you did care, then you re-engage and you've fallen right into my trap, mwahahahaha

 

It's step one in "working out personal issues through an internet forum"

Tell us something we haven't worked out ourselves.

Understandable.

 

Once you've set the top in motion, it's best to just let it spin

 

Quitting while you're ahead means you don't say something to mess up your own argument later down the line. Good move, for some.

Is this step one in the TBs keep a thread going technique?

or you could honor the feminine. And spend the energy you could have spent being manipulative and trying to read people in spontaneous enjoyment of someone's company.

 

that usually puts people in a really good mood. And as anyone who has ever run around trying to put their dick in someone else knows, putting them in a good mood first is always a good thing.

 

but i'm not a fan of NLP seduction gurus.. i've never seen one who i think is making the world a better place.

Yes I think this was basically the point I was trying to make. You have to think about the overall affect on yourself and everyone you come into contact with if your approach is to try to deliberately lower someone's value.

Maybe it works I don't know but what is happening in the energy dynamic between the people involved?