dwai

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Posts posted by dwai

  1. Posted

    5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

    If spiritual development leads to a place where all feeling is either non-existent or blunted to the point where it´s a "subtle state" what´s the point?  What is "spiritual" about such a state?  Why would someone want that?  Equanimity is great but when it slides into simply not caring, I´m not so sure.  I wouldn´t my loved ones to become enlightened if that would mean they´d lose the ability to take an interest in me and my activities.  

    Unaffected is a better word. And because the sense of Self has expanded to include the whole world, a different kind of love and compassion exudes from such a person. Then the person is able to help uplift those in need, and be of service to others without any sense or expectation of getting anything in return. So some will re-enter the world with pure love and spirit of service. 


    Of course, some simply spend out their remaining physical lifespan as hermits. Nothing wrong with that either. 

    5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

     

    I´ve always thought that spirituality should make a person care more, not less.  Have I got it wrong all these years?  

    No you haven't. But that 'care more', imho is out of the expansion of one's sense of Being from beyond the body-mind-personality to the entire universe.  But some might simply choose to disappear. Unaffected, but never indifference, imho.

    • Like 6

  2. Posted

    12 minutes ago, freeform said:

     

    No - it's a temporary stage as the change slowly becomes more stable.

     

    At a later stage, emotions do return - albeit in a very different form.

     

    I'm certainly not at that stage, but from what a senior student describes - emotions become less reactive and less all-encompassing - they become like subtle states. Yes, there is love and 'appreciative joy' - but it doesn't work in the same way as normal - less personal, less directional and not based on stimulus-response feedback in the same way.

    Yes. 

    12 minutes ago, freeform said:

    From what I understand one would not burst into tears from hearing a beautiful song.

    True :) 

    12 minutes ago, freeform said:

    Most lay-practitioners stop the transformation process at stage 4 (the one after the emotionless stage) - because to move ahead in the process you would need to retreat from society for a prolonged time and spend years in constant meditation. This is when body processes stop and you enter a kind of meditative stasis. You need people around to look after your body... or you need to be entombed in some way.

    That is not my understanding. That is needed when we enter what is called "kevala nirvikalpa samadhi" -- total cessation of the mind for extended periods of time. It is erroneously considered a "higher" state. It is not so -- it only results in what is called "mano laya" (or submersion of the mind). The beyond of that stage is the beginning of enlightenment -- the non-grasping mind -- it is called "sahaja samādhi" in the Indian traditions (both Vedanta as well as Tantra). 

     

    If you so feel inclined, you should do a reading of the book "Tripura Rahasya" -- it clearly outlines the different phases, stages, etc etc. Admittedly not a Daoist book per se, but I think you'll see the similarities therein.

    • Like 2

  3. Posted

    11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

     

    And how did you answer the question?

    There is no experience apart from True Nature (or consciousness). Joy is not experienced due to an external object. Love is not experienced due to an external object. They are part of True Nature. That was a logical inference at that point. 

     

    Also later, it became apparent that the "no mind" state is not one of a dead mind. There is a technical term in sanskrit for it -- "mano nāsha" (Destruction of the mind). This is a source of great confusion for seekers on this path (as it was for me as well), as they think that the mind will cease to function :).  That is not the case. The "destruction" of the mind occurs when it becomes apparent that it is merely a tool -- an instrument via which experiencing occurs.

    'No mind' is a condition in which the mind doesn't grasp at/for things any more. Whatever comes, comes; whatever goes, goes. 

    So of course, there is experience..but there is no grasping for it anymore. There is no craving...there is no repulsion. 

    • Like 1
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  4. Posted

    6 hours ago, freeform said:


    Ok - just one more :lol:

     

    No - not positive at all... not negative either - just dull :)

     

    The bus does progress past this stage.

     

    6 hours ago, freeform said:


     

    But I always warn people that spiritual cultivation is not what it seems. It’s not easy, not pleasant and a foolhardy endeavour. So consider me a fool! 

    one day while listening to John McLaughlin’s Shakti I was moved to tears at the beauty and wonder of the music. Along with that I felt a deep outpouring of love for my teacher and the divine. 
     

     Being that I was spending almost all my waking moments in contemplation back then, a thought ran through my mind immediately  — “so then I have to give up this and other experiences of beauty, as individual experience will disappear after ‘waking up’!” 
    “All joy will cease to be experienced, because in awakening all perturbations of the mind disappear — after all the mind dies!”, the voice in my head said.

     

    So that put me in a bit of a quandary.  Would I have to give up experiencing love and joy and the exquisite anguish of music that moves me to tears with its beauty? 

    • Like 1

  5. Posted

    15 minutes ago, Bindi said:

     

    When people negate emotions, this is the essence of negating the ‘earth’, negating yin, and spiritual bypassing. 
     

    A spiritual bypass or spiritual bypassing is a "tendency to use spiritual ideas and practices to sidestep or avoid facing unresolved emotional issues, psychological wounds, and unfinished developmental tasks". 

     

    Emotional issues are painful, opening up the emotional channel is hard work, easier to just see all emotions as unreal, and justify it as advanced spirituality. 

     

     

    Who said anything about bypassing? :) 

     

    Witness and let go. The Non-clinging/non-avoiding mind is the free mind. Whatever comes will come, whatever goes will go. 

  6. Posted

    13 hours ago, Creation said:

     

    dwai, to clarify you position in this, it seems like there are no stages in what you are referring to.  You either get that "You are that" or you don't.  Are there stages or a progression in this?  Even getting in for an interval and shifting out of it vs. a permanent shift? And, bracketing transformation of the physical body, what of emotions when you get it?  Some Vedantic teachers I have heard emphasize that desire and anger will completely disappear when you get it, others say it will still arise but you there won't be any identification with it and hence no suffering.  This would seem to have relevance to the question of bodily transformation, since arising of emotion is very much rooted in the physical body.

    Pretty much that way. “Getting it” is not an intellectual thing — which many do, it doesn’t take much effort.
     

    The “getting it” is a permanent shift in perspective. When it happens it is very profound initially — literally everything changes wrt our relationship with our “personalities/body/mind” and also the world. 
     

    The Advaita Vedantic traditional method is essentially work on the consciousness level. Preliminary/preparatory work needs to have already been done, the mind (the tool used for the practice) needs to be clear and settled.  
     

    The seeker first discovers the emptiness of phenomena (though they don’t term it as such — they call it mithya or unreal). When it is realized that all phenomena (objects and the changes they go through) are inherently empty, the seeker then realizes that there is “something” that is unchanging, always present through all the experiences - it is that which witnesses all phenomena. 
     

    After remaining in that “witness” mode (how long depends on the karma of the seeker), all emotional and mental patterns are recognized and negated as ephemeral, therefore unreal as well. They become like clouds in the sky, or waves in an ocean. 
     

    Then that “click” happens, when it becomes directly known that all phenomena only rise and fall in that unchanging knower, nothing is apart from it. 
     

    Like a necklace, bracelet and ring are all made up of gold in different names, forms and functions, the phenomena too are nothing but names, forms and functions of that nondual consciousness/awareness. 
     

    Phenomena will continue to appear and disappear, the nondual awareness is unaffected. Clouds come and go but the sky is unaffected.

     

    When “everything” is never apart from that “true nature”,  who and what needs to transform? 
     

    The ‘seeker’ was none other than True nature, seeking itself from 

    behind the veil of “separateness” of body,  mind and experiences.  

    That which identified itself as “I am the seeker” turns out to be simply a story based on memories and impressions, inside and made up of true nature through and through. 


    What remains is not that personality anymore — but simply true nature. All action in the ‘world’ then is simply action, without any sense of doership  This true nature might appear to be a separate mind-body unit to those other mind-body units who have not yet realized their true nature. 
     

    That’s why when awakening happens, true nature sees only true nature in everything and everyone. 
     

    wrt the blissful stages — bliss can rise at the point when one has full access to their causal sheath (Normally it is only accessible via deep sleep). There is a reason why that causal sheath is called the “anandamaya kosha” - blissful layer/sheath. 


    There is definitely a sense of release that arises from the permanent shift, but I won’t call it “bliss” per se. It is more a release from the “burden of the personality/body/mind story”. 
     

    There are those though who fully awakened still are intermittently disturbed by the activities of in the  world. That is because they did have the permanent shift,  but not enough preparatory work has been done. More karma has to be released/burnt. For them, more work needs to happen (hence transformation). But that too dissipates much like bubbles fizz out in a bottle of soda with enough time. 

     

    13 hours ago, Creation said:

    Something that seemed relevant to bring up is the example of the Buddhist Pali Canon, which has particularly simple and clear yet comprehensive models of the enlightenment process.  In the first stage of enlightenment, roughly speaking, your sense of separate self drops out completely,  and this guarantees you complete enlightenment after some number of lifetimes, but if you don't get further this number will be more than one, because anger and desire, which are causes for physical rebirth, still arise in your experience.  At the third stage, anger and desire drop out completely, and you will be reborn only one more time, in a celestial pure abode to work out any remaining attachment to subtle individuated existence.  The fourth stage, then, is total liberation.

    • Like 3

  8. Posted

    33 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

     

    How about the Lulu and Bookbaby marketing?  It seems like Amazon has all the marketing.

    I’ve not looked at others. I’m considering ingramspark but it costs ~ 500$ for initial work — they have option of hard bound as well as paperback. Advantage is they can distribute in bookstores etc. which btw amazon can too. I’ll share some other strategies with you that I’m looking at in a pm. 

    • Like 2

  10. Posted

    5 minutes ago, freeform said:


    From the Vedantic perspective...

     


    Again from the Vedantic perspective?

    From a realization perspective :) (it takes a bit of sussing out) 

    5 minutes ago, freeform said:

     

    I think it’s important to add that.


    Because this is not the alchemical Daoist pov. The Daoist perspective is that your body and your mind are a conditioned representation of your original self. And the process is to transform them back to Dao.

    Same with Vedanta, Tantra etc etc. Nothing new here. 

    5 minutes ago, freeform said:

    Disappearing in a flash of light is an indication to observers that that process has been completed... disappearing in a rainbow light is an indication that the process was almost completed etc...

    Okay. But prove to whom?

  11. Posted

    41 minutes ago, freeform said:


    Sure :)

     

    You're saying that you already are the perfect embodiment of Original Nature - you just haven’t realised it. And the realisation of your true nature changes nothing other than discovering your true nature was there all along. 

     

    That is all the change that is necessary :) 

    All the ‘trouble’ occurs as a result of the veiling. Once the veil fully disappears, all trouble disappears as well. 

    Quote

     

    You say that Ming practices clean off any debris obscuring you True Nature - but it doesn’t give you the realisation - it just makes the realisation more likely.

     

    What I’m saying is that from the alchemical perspective things are different.

     

    Remember that the Daoist alchemical approach isn’t Ming then Xing... Its the cultivation of Xing-Ming together. 

    It seems most start with Ming. Though I too have said earlier that they overlap and help each other. :) 

    Quote


     

    There’s a sort of leapfrog game going on. Ming techniques help set the foundation for Xing... Here it’s in the form of Qigong, Neigong and internal martial arts.

     

    Then working with Xing (a process outlined in DDJ) brings about awakening. The key here is that awakening sets up the foundation for deeper Ming work... which sets the stage for deeper Xing work. This is the area of more advanced alchemical processes and maybe some Neigong work on the congenital level.

    :) 

    Quote

     

    Once you’ve achieved awakening in just the way you’re describing - the realisation of your true nature (and that you always were a perfect embodiment of your true nature - seems to be an important issue to highlight for you :))

     

    Once that has been achieved, you then proceed through a ‘transformation’ process. I think this is a key difference: transformation - realisation.

     

    Although you’re an embodiment of your true nature, from the alchemical perspective, this embodied aspect, having gone through the process of being born is conditioned.
     

    The reversal that’s been mentioned is taking this conditioned embodiment of your true self to a pre conditioned state before birth - (and then further back all the way to Dao) - this is a transformation at every level of your being - physical, ‘energetic’, karmic, causal etc...

     

    So now maybe you could articulate the alchemical perspective (as I’ve already suggested earlier in the thread) - and we can see if we’re on the same page or not :)

     

    I think we’re on the same page here :) .
     

    All I’m suggesting is that the transformation occurs as part of the process that unfolds after proper realization. Conditioning will fall away, as a result of simply abiding from that Nondual awareness. We call it ‘vāsana kshyaya‘ in the Vedantic tradition. Nothing more needs to be done except remain as your True Nature, though one could do more if they wanted to. It won’t make one iota of difference to our True Nature.
     

    Being able to disappear in a flash of light is no better or worse than leaving your body the regular way. You never were the body, you were not even the mind — they are just ephemeral appearances in you, True Nature (Consciousness).
     

    That said — it won’t make sense until it does. 

    • Like 1

  15. Posted · Edited by dwai

    1 hour ago, ReturnDragon said:


    Yes, it is about borrow the power of the opponent. As long the opponent is holding on you, you may borrow his power to aid you but against him. However, if the opponent let go of you, then, you cannot borrow his power.

    In Taiji, it is called "借力打力", borrow power to counteract the same opposing force.

    No it is not the same thing. It is literally working with the energy pervading space all around us and within us. 
     

    We have to understand and be able to use Hua Jin and Na Jin first, before we can start to understand this. Even many who can use hua/hwa and na Jin are unable to get to this stage. 

    PS: I thought I’d share my understanding of this so my response is more helpful. 

  16. Posted · Edited by dwai

    How does qigong work?

     

    The mind and Qi are interrelated. I would say they are two aspects of consciousness. Mind is the aspect of knowing, Qi is the aspect of creation. 
     

    The third aspect associated with this is the breath. The mind (and Qi) wax and wane with the breath. We can even say that all three - mind, Qi and breath affect each other.

     

    At a high level, qigong is the integration of mind and breath (can be with or without movement). When Breath is effortless and relaxed, The mind becomes “tame” and loses its natural turbulence. This leads to becoming sensitive of Qi.

     

    With regular practice, little by little, we become more aware of Qi. As we become more aware of Qi, our ability to focus it, along with the mind grows. As the ability to focus increases, we improve the quality of this Qi. Like sunlight can be focused by passing it through a lens, as an example. This makes our Qi stronger. It also makes our mind intent more still and powerful. This is the part about why qigong works. 
     

    More later if interested. 

     

     

     

    • Like 4

  18. Posted

     

    18 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

    I think that what happens sometimes is that a person can get a taste of the really real and think that they´ve arrived.  Like having the first bite of an appetizer and imagining that the 7 course meal has concluded.  Nondual awareness needs to suffuse through all the layers of reality from subtle to gross before the banquet is over.

    The notion of “there’s more” is a bit of a misnomer imho. The way I look at it as follows — Realizing our true nature as nondual awareness is like a light turned on in a dark room. Sure you can see more stuff, but those too are not apart from us either. What feels like it’s deepening is that old patterns dissolve and disappear (some slow, some fast).

     

    • Like 1

  19. Posted

    4 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:


    That is beyond my comprehensive level.

    Appreciate your honesty. Hwa or hua Jin is the ability to transform incoming force by a skilled internal player. Initially we learn to do that by Moving and stepping, and then bh turning our waist, folding our joints etc. Progressively we go from that to being able to transform incoming force by directing it to the ground. Eventually we can transform it by releasing it into emptiness. But just as we can transform, we can also redirect. It is not a biomechanical thing — it involves being able to sense and access energetics at a very subtle level. 

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  20. Posted

    3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:


    As soon you get yourself out of danger by moving the hostile force away, you had already neutralized that force which has no effect on you any longer.

    Neutralizing doesn’t require physical moving — there is a skill called hwa, where the incoming force is transformed into emptiness or returned back, redirected etc. It all happens internally and energetically. 

    • Thanks 1

  21. Posted

    3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:


    Please don't get me wrong. I see lots of jin(energy) in you, you must have been practiced very long time. Even though, we don't speak the same Taiji language, but you are doing the same thing as other Taiji players.

    I’ve been practicing for about 20 years now. Yes there are many different types and levels of taijiquan.  Some stop at the physical level. Very good — leverage, timing, etc etc. Some go way beyond physicality into ‘mind boxing’. Some go even beyond. Taiji operates at multiple levels at the same time. The  ‘quan’ is what evolves and refines. 

     

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  24. Posted · Edited by dwai

    2 hours ago, freeform said:

     

    I think in general you've covered the two perspectives well...

     

    I think it's important to add that the idea isn't to become an energetic immortal being living on spiritual plains. The idea is to achieve the above. It's just the alchemical Daoist perspective is that you don't discard physicality, karma and all the layers between that and your original spirit. Because physicality and all the other layers are a physical/energetic/karmic manifestation of your Original Spirit. You might feel like you've discarded them - but you're wrong - because they are you and will always be tied to you until they're fully transformed.

     

    I often find that assumptions are made about paths different than ours. A good way to have a meaningful discourse is to first articulate the “other’s” perspective and have them agree that our understanding is correct. 
     

    for example, what you wrote is not a proper understanding of that perspective. Nothing gets discarded.  Nothing needs to be transformed :) 
     

    Okay, Let try another example this time. Let’s take Gold and ornaments you make with gold. Caveat emptor — this is an example, so take it as it’s meant to be, and don’t extrapolate the roles of the gold miner, jeweller etc. 

     

    we have ornaments made of gold. Necklace, bracelet and. Finger ring. Each of these are modifications of gold. Can we ever find any of these to exist apart from the gold that they’re made of? 
     

    The different types of ornaments made of gold - necklace, bracelet and ring, they are what we can call name-forms with different uses. 
     

    Let's now assume that the ornaments have been covered by a layer of dirt. So we clean them up until the dirt is gone and the gold that they’re made up of, shines forth. Then it is simply a case of recognizing the ‘goldness’ of the ornaments. 


    So long as these name-forms exist, and we know that they are nothing but gold, there’s no need to melt them back to becoming gold. They never were not gold. 

     

    Similarly with True Nature. All the manifestation in the universe, with all the sentient beings — so long as there is no realization that it is all True Nature, there is a problem. 
     

    We search for that elusive true nature outside (God, spirits, etc etc). Then someone tells us that you have to look ‘within’. Maybe gives us a meditation or alchemical practice — so we refine, clean, etc etc. (Ming) until one day we realize that we’ve always been that which we look for. There is nothing about us that has ever been apart from this True Nature. 
     

    Then what was the “dirt” that was covering the gold in those ornaments one might ask.
     

    The answer in our case (is True Nature) is that there seemed to be a veiling, an Obscuration  that hides True nature from our minds. But once the direct recognition of our True Nature occurs, there is no longer the veiling. Then it becomes apparent that we were always aware of this True Nature. 
     

    In Hindu tradition, this veiling is called ‘maya’. It is considered to be like a mirage, which both seems to exist and not exist, neither exist, nor not exist, exists, does not exist at the same time. Just like a mirage is only an optical illusion, that disappears when investigated closely, similarly this obscuration disappears when we observe closely  with clarity and focus of the mind, unclouded by objects (xing). 

    Full Awakening/Recognition cannot occur without Xing (consciousness) work. 
     

    Ming work might give us glimpses — While we clean the gold ornaments, the glints of gold peek through the dirt as it falls away. That is a lot of work most people seem to need to do.

     

    But working with consciousness is not simple at all (until it becomes). It is a different kind of work, apparent to no one other than the practitioner themselves. 

     

     

    Quote

     

    • Like 1

  25. Posted

    29 minutes ago, mla7 said:

    I think this is an important discussion and I wanted to take a stab at summarizing my understanding of the arguments here.  Please correct me if you feel I am missing something:

     

    Freeform (and Walker, kinda):  Cultivating xing without cultivating ming (as done by the majority of buddhists for example) is problematic.  It can yield "awakenings" which in themselves are at best preludes to real spiritual achievement and at worse can cause people to become delusional spiritual monsters.  A better way to go is to cultivate xing and ming.  When the ming is transformed real physical changes occur.  For instance, people who have properly cultivated the ming can turn their physical bodies into a body made of light and go live on higher planes if they wish.  This is a valid goal of spiritual cultivation and physical transformations such as the one just described are proof that "real" spiritual stuff has occurred unlike the "awakenings" claimed by xing-only people which might just be a fanciful notion.

    I won't comment on this any further. imho, most people need to work on ming before xing. 

    29 minutes ago, mla7 said:

    Dwai:  Achieving awakening is the point of spiritual practice.  What is the point of flying around the universe in a body made of light if your mind is still mired in dualism?  Practices that liberate the mind from the delusion of self are the best way to go and abiding in a deep state of permanent non-duality is the best and most valid result of successful spiritual practice.  Although this may not result in flesh and blood transformation of the physical body who cares? 

    Yes that's what I too say. What is the point?

    29 minutes ago, mla7 said:

    The important thing is that the illusion of self is dissolved and the knot of karma binding us to our suffering is untied forever.  Although the physical body may continue up till death in a normal way, it doesn't really matter because the mind has been liberated from it's attachment to the body and everything else too.

     What (primarily) the Buddhists call "no self" is what I call the Self. Why? That's a long story...but in the Hindu nondualist traditions, Self is not what people ordinarily think they are (mind-body-personality).  So in this discussion, I've been assiduously avoiding using either the terms "Self" or "no Self", but rather sticking to "True Nature".

     

    Read this to find out what I mean -- https://www.medhajournal.com/most-people-misunderstand-what-atman-means/

     

     

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