dwai

Advaita Vedanta clearly states that you get what was always yours and you lose that which was never yours to begin with.
 

Instead of looking at nondual systems as transcendence models, I would suggest to look at them as models to dispel delusions (about identity, etc). How does one dispel a delusion? By first becoming aware that it is a delusion, and further by recognizing what is causing the delusion. The source of delusion is the ego which assumes ownership of labels meant for categorization. this works for all forms of identification (gender, nationality, job, skill, and so on). This even extends to emotions. The identification can happen for both positive or negative attributes. The positive part is obvious to most - if someone is good at something, and they get social approval etc, their ego will fixate on it. But it can happen for negative (someone their intellect would rationalize as undesirable) things too. 
 

There’s an upanishadic parable I'm reminded of. There was a washerman who lived in a typical Indian village a long time ago. He has a donkey that he used to carry his load of clothes every morning to the riverbank where he washed dirty clothes, dried, folded and delivered them back to his customers in the village. One day, he had a big argument with his wife, and absent-mindedly he loaded that day’s clothes on the donkey’s back and walked to the riverbank. 
 

As he unloaded the clothes off the donkey’s back, he sought to tie the donkey to a branch of the tree where he usually left it, before proceeding  to do his washing. But he realized that he had forgotten to get the rope he used to tie the donkey. And so he was in a fix, because the thought that if he left the donkey untied under the tree to wash clothes, it would wander off. The washerman was poor, and he couldn’t afford to lose the donkey. But he couldn’t go back home either, because his day’s livelihood depended on him washing and returning the clothes to his customers. If he didn’t work, his family wouldn’t eat. 
 

As he stood there looking stressed, the village wise man, who was walking by, asked him what was wrong. He explained the predicament. 
 

The wise man said, “listen — this is a donkey, it’s not known for its intellectual prowess. Just pretend like you’re tying it up, and leave for your work. It will be there when you come back.”

Given that it was the wisest man in the village who gave him the advice the washerman followed the instructions. And sure enough, when he came back with his washed and folded load of clothes from the river bank in the evening, the donkey was standing right where he left him, happily munching on the leaves he left for him.  He loaded up the donkey, and tried to walk back, but the donkey wouldn’t budge. No matter what he did, it wouldn’t move. He pleaded, cajoled, raged and beat the poor beast, but it was as though the donkey was transfixed in the very spot where he had left him all day. 
 

luckily for him, the wise man whose advice he had followed in the morning happened to be returning to the village around then. Seeing the washerman distraught again, he asked “what is the problem now?”

The washerman explained what the problem was. The wise

man laughed and said, “it’s very simple. Remember how you had pretended to tie your donkey up in the morning? Now pretend to untie it.”

Although skeptical of the solution, the washerman followed the instructions. And lo and behold the donkey happily started walking away from the tree. The washerman profusely thanked the wise man as they walked back together to the village. He asked for an explanation as they were walking back. The wise man explained, “donkeys are creatures of habit. Whatever you train them to do, they will do. All its life you’ve trained it to respond to the tying and untying of the rope. It learned early on that it couldn’t wander off to graze elsewhere, so it didn’t wander off when you pretend tied it up this morning. It also learned that it couldn’t move without being untied first, as it would hurt if it tried to walk away while still tied to the tree. So it waited for you to untie it.”

Now let us consider a hypothetical person who has suffered a lot of emotional trauma. It is likely that their ego has to attached to this as an identity. Why? Habit/familiarity.
 

The mind is comprised of four functions. The field of thoughts we normally associate with the “mind” - - called manas in Sanskrit. The intellect (aka buddhi), which helps in analyzing and understanding. The storehouse of memories and feelings (aka chitta) from which both memories and feelings are extracted when we experience any phenomenon (this happens in a flash, and the intellect then uses these to evaluate and label/categorize it - such as good or bad, etc). Finally is the ego (ahamkara) that affixes ownership of the label/category (such as my memory, my feeling as so on). The ego is like the donkey, it fixates on these labels and categories and stays attached to them.
 

Just like with the washerman, as long as the donkey was expected to do the right it without the right conditions, it didn’t follow the commands given by the washerman. But once the washerman (informed by the wise man in the parable) figured out the right conditions to make it behave properly, the donkey followed the commands happily. 
 

Nondual traditions don’t transcend manas, chitta or ahamkara, but using the intellect (buddhi), overcomes the tendencies they are susceptible to, to become free of delusions. Emotions don’t need to be transcended or transmuted, but rather they need to be recognized along with their triggers, and that will allow us to release ourselves from their bondage.  

Sunlight is yang and promotes yang qi. Too much exposure can deplete yin. There are certain times of the day to avoid direct sunlight exposure (for example in India it is the noon to 3 pm time in the summer ) depending on where in the world you are.
 

Also it is not advised to practice things like qigong, yoga etc in direct exposure to strong sunlight (or for that matter heat, cold or wind). The reason being that you need to be in an environment where you can sense your qi and if there are external stimuli at play then your mind is not attuned inward as easily. A distracted mind means scattered qi. 

This thread is going into slander territory. Please be responsible and refrain from posting slanderous and wild conspiracy theories. 

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Even if these people have genuine power or skill, their character tells me enough about whether they are worth emulating. 

Indeed! I don’t know what happened to Joey, he is a good-natured person (based on the limited interactions I’ve had with him over several years via FB). 

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

only Brahman can wake up Brahman, yes?

But Brahman is never “unawakened”.  

14 hours ago, stirling said:

This is my experience too. There is a difference when sitting with a realized teacher, I have seen this over and over again. Also, a realized teacher is more likely to get across complex dharma. 

 

I agree. I’ve had the good fortune of being in the presence of a few swamis who I know are realized (including swami sarvapriyananda).  There is something that happens beyond a mere exchange of words. Similar is my experience with my Sifu - being in his presence has a profound stilling effect on the mind. 

14 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Having said all of that I know absolutely that no-one can solely enlighten another person. Properly understood, such an idea is hilariously nonsensical. Enlightenment only wakes up to itself. 

I agree with this too. I do think that a realized person’s field has an effect on a qualified listener. This doesn’t necessarily require physical proximity - it could be remote/videos too. I’ve had very interesting things happen when I listened to Eckhart Tolle a few times. 

6 hours ago, Apech said:

I only mention this as being new you may not be familiar with the lore of Daobums

As immortalized by the Bard par excellence of Daobumia, Apechius the mellifluous! 

@Apech has agreed to volunteer time as a moderator. Please welcome him back to the mod team. 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

He was pretty clear that he didn't respect authority based on transmission. Can you blame him! 

It was not so much that he didn’t respect authority based on transmission, but demonstrated a lack of respect in general. 

Just now, old3bob said:

 

all springs from the Self (Chandogya Upanishad) but the Self is not bound by them...

How does anything bind the Immanent? 

The ishavasya Upanishad states - "Ishavasyam Idam Sarvam" - That permeates the whole world (Isha/God/Self) - that is Immanence. 

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

not really although connected...

Interesting. How are they different, in your opinion?  

11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

the transcendent remains transcendent but has no (attachment) problems with the immanent.  

They are the same  

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Without checking to see if you have the quote exactly correct, yes, that is my experience with it. Any good meditator that can rest in stillness could see the "not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded" in this moment. It's always right here, and can be seen alongside the "born, become, made, compounded". Moment to moment the "born, become, made, compounded" arises OUT of the "not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded". 

 

that is what I was referring to as recognizing the immanent after "transcending" 

Transcendence and immanence are two aspects of spirituality.
 

As the apparent individual expands beyond their seeming limitedness, they become aware of that which they seek to grow into (True Nature) was always immanent in and through every aspect of existence.  

On 12/8/2024 at 1:03 PM, Sahaja said:

.my understanding is that  succumbing to our urges/habits/addictions  burns Jing, applying discipline/willpower (zhi - kidneys) to not succumb builds it. So I would say both sex and looking at our cell phones are a small part of the equation, but it’s a much broader issue and  more fundamental than any one thing.  If one could avoid or reduce the stress of attachments, either desires or aversion, that helps return the Jing towards its original state- stills the Jing. 

 

The Nei Yeh quote you mentioned points to a different approach altogether, imho. Not using willpower but developing a natural release of the mind. Not by force (willpower) but as a result of understanding/realization of the empty nature of those things. 

2 hours ago, Ascetic said:

How do we make the mental work we do permanent? Especially if it is not included in what opening chakras would clear

What will opening chakras clear? 

The mind is a mirror in which we see the reflection of our Self -- that's the seeing and recognizing part.

The dust of life settles on this mirror gradually and obscures the image.  So we clean the mirror every day -- that's the maintaining part. 

Is it necessary to keep cleaning the mirror after seeing and recognizing it? The question arises "Who is recognizing, and who is cleaning/maintaining? Who knows if the image is clear or obscure?"  That one doesn't (need to) do anything. 

On 11/14/2024 at 7:38 PM, Shadow_self said:

True Wisdom is also a siddhi of sorts   Thats something thats been proven to be abundantly clear to me  

That is the only Siddhi, rest are all parlor tricks of varying degrees. 

15 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I agree with you... they are something one can tune into like radio stations, but impermanent. 

Interesting stuff about the 'jhanas'...

In the Advaita Vedanta tradition, "stages" of meditation are not given much importance since realization requires the intellect to be active. It could be said that even if you enter into nirvikalpa samadhi in yogic meditation, you are still you (i.e., the body-mind complex) when you come out of it. Savikalpa samadhi (a still/settled mind with active intellect) is necessary for nondual inquiry.  

There are preparatory practices that include a combination of yogic meditation (dhyana), selfless service (seva), good company (satsang), and devotion (bhakti). These will help the individual seeker achieve mental focus and establish an active silence/stillness.

The problems encountered in the Advaitic path are as follows -

1. Chitta mala - Impurity of the mind (can be resolved using selfless service)
2. Chitta Viksepa - Scattered mind (can be resolved by using meditation)
3. Asambhavana - Doubts about the veracity of the teachings (these can be resolved in the company of fellow travelers and realized teachers, as well as with devotion to the lineage/teachings)
4. Viparita Bhavana - Regressive tendencies - these are usually a result of incomplete foundational work, such that even after reaching a certain degree of understanding and clarity, from time to time a "slipping" occurs in the mind of the seeker. These are a result of vasanas (karmic patterns) that re-emerge. On a side note, a holistic medicine practitioner I used to visit told me that problems tend to rise in cycles (sometimes, it is a 13-month cycle, some larger and some smaller).

On 11/17/2024 at 11:48 AM, Sahaja said:

 

https://youtu.be/hwGk0k2NNRM?si=BZyaM9iUrvnwqsEc

This video by him has a very interesting and clear differentiation of the various frames of yang tai chi. From his perspective Large frame uses internal qi (ti qi), middle frame uses external qi (ling qi) and small frame uses yi.  Interesting discussion of application to weapons as well. 

He also goes into a very esoteric concept here. 

On 11/7/2024 at 4:17 PM, Mark Foote said:

My understanding of the teachings of Gautama the Shakyan is that the first four concentrations end in automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation solely by virtue of the location of consciousness.

 

The five further concentrations end with the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the mind in feeling and perceiving,  presumably feeling and perceiving solely by virtue of the experience of consciousness without habit or volition.

 

The first three of the further states Gautama declared as "the excellence of the heart's release" through the extension of the minds of compassion, of sympathetic joy, and of equanimity, respectively,.  The extensions were each the extension of "the mind of" beyond the boundaries of sense in all directions, and without limit.

 

Some objective, particular instruction, although Gautama declared that some were freed through the further concentrations and "intuitive wisdom", while others were freed through "intuitive wisdom" alone.
 

 

Hi Mark,

Can you elucidate this for me? It'd be great if you could explain the first four concentrations in lay-person terms, etc. 

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

I would say another point most Buddhists would make between Buddhism and Hinduism would be Hinduism's focus on god's and goddesses, but at least with Mahayana Buddhism functionally Bodhisattvas and cosmic Buddha's fill the same role.  

The role of deities is necessary, depending on the path one travels, IMHO. Understanding that Deities are "real" at the transactional/causal level is essential. Deities can help individuals progress spiritually so long as one knows how to practice with them.

Not having deities and not having a practical approach to spiritual practice, but only theory about a formless G_d (half-baked IMHO) will lead to problems such as fundamentalism and violence. Having deities but not having a practical approach to working with the deities (such as tantra, etc.) will also cause problems of superstition and delusion/dependency. 

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I feel like a lot of Buddhists would say that one of the primary differences between Hinduism and Buddhism is the teaching of "no self" but the Buddha never actually taught there wasn't a self (or that there was). He just taught that the five aggregates were not self. 

Which is the locus standi of Advaita Vedanta as well. The 'self" and "no self" debate is inconsequential (IMHO) beyond the preliminary stages of study/practice. We should simply do the work and the truth will be revealed. 

23 minutes ago, old3bob said:

the Upanishads do not entertain the  idea of being "accident prone" to enlightenment although imo the idea has certain validity if in the sense of  of preparation,  but still one can prepare until the cows come home but it is The Self that chooses the Self, and not by any culmination of "accidents". 

Technically, the Self doesn't choose the Self; the Self is always and forever the Self. The "accident" is for the so-called separate individual who seems to suffer from the delusion of separateness and individuality. 

P.S. This kind of thinking (Self choose the Self) arises from being unable to discern between the jiva and Atman.. From the jiva's perspective, there is ignorance and corresponding liberation/enlightenment. From Atman's perspective, there never was any ignorance or a need for liberation. 

I recently saw someone "raging" against the Advaita Vedanta teachers (such as Ma Anandamayi), asking if their perspective -- that, at the highest level, most religious traditions have more in common than not -- isn't a disregard for each tradition's view.

Most spiritual traditions have a vacyaartha (literal meaning) and a lakshyartha (implied meaning). People who have not had a realization shift (not yet had the profound accident) cannot understand the implied meaning, so they stick with the literal meaning (or the word of the teacher/lineage/tradition). While this might seem patronizing, it is not intended to be that way—it is merely an empirical statement (based on observation). The literal meaning is like an encoded message; the implied meaning is understood once a practitioner can access the decoder. 

Many accouterments accompany specific spiritual traditions in their specific socio-cultural and temporal contexts. One doesn't need to discard these - they have a lot of beauty (for those who choose to see it that way).