11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

umm, lots of variation going on for that depending on the school one espouses.

The confusion is due to different levels of understanding. Swami Sarvapriyananda says there are 3 steps to Advaita.

1. Separate oneself from the phenomenal world, the mind and the body so that it (phenomenal world) stops affecting us by generating rāga-dvésha (like-dislike/love-hate) in the mind. This is called developing sākshi-bhāva or witnessing consciousness. This is dualistic. There is you, the witness and there is a separate world (samsāra).
2. Through meditation, contemplation and detached observation realize that the world is nothing but name and form (nāma-rūpa) and essentially empty in nature. This is also duality but very subtle.
3. Realize that the appearances of name and form happens within you, the awareness alone. They can never be separate from you. Realize that in every phenomenon, once we let go of the focus on name and form, the qualities of Being (Asti), Consciousness (Bhāti or illumination) and Bliss (Priyam) shine forth. Samsāra is nothing apart from Nirvāńa, or Jagat and Jiva are nothing apart from Brahman -- the true Self (Atman). 

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

(i'd submit that) there really is no separate "unreal" or "illusion" as we often hear of in non-duality circles....thus the only -thing- that can be unreal so to speak is an unreal or incomplete perception and or being-ness  concerning non-duality which includes duality, (or so called and misunderstood maya)

what is called “unreal” is the notion that there is a world apart from the nondual awareness. It’s a conceptual thing. 

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 Human 'Natural '    '  Order'   ;

 

" Urk ! "

 

I don't subscribe to such an outlook. This is another perspective of how the world can be  --

http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/ancient-universities-india-takshashila-nalanda/

Quote

 

 

 

The  '  Natural  Order '   ... has China and India at the head of the table  does it ?

 

And you are complaining about OIT people being labelled with    Indian / Hindu nationalist  tag  ?

 

Okey dokey .

This is the problem with discussing such topics. There is so much politicizing and labeling that occurs, that it is impossible to state a simple geopolitical fact - "India and China getting back to being the world leaders in terms of GDP, trade and soft power", which is where they were until the 1700s when the Europeans managed to colonize them.  There was no particularly positive reason for such colonization, except that the europeans were able to very insidiously take advantage of political situations (infighting within India, China, etc) in Asia (and other parts of the world) to their advantage and siphoned away wealth and intellectual properties to fuel their industrial revolution. This is a fact! If someone denies it, they're living in some alternate reality.

So, when I say, China and India will regain their position at the head of the world order, it is only a return to the natural order of things that existed. 

This graphic doesn't factor in other things like soft power or more recent GDP (2003 - 2019). I'm not being jingoistic in my statement of the re-ascendence of India and China to the top of the world order...it is a fact.  

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Yeah right.

Glad you agree  

My book is now available on Kindle eBook for no cost if you have a Kindle unlimited account. It is also available to order in paperback format.

Also got a promo going through Dec 25th for 99 cents.

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think there are real and interesting questions here - (I haven't managed to watch that video except the very beginning) - and I also think just as we have to peel away the European scholars 'projections' of the AIT and possibly the AMT, there seems to be an attempt to replace this with the Indian National Theory - instead of following the evidence.  Surely someone can step back and examine the evidence objectively without taking sides.

 

 

Actually there is a very pragmatic approach to this by most of the indigenous scholars. However the AIT/AMT camp labels them as “right wing nationalists” and thus try to discredit them, not really disprove their work. 
 

This is an old debate which is political in nature, and will be put to rest in another 15 years or so when the world reestablishes it’s natural order of China and India back at the head of the table.  
 

Just now, Nungali said:

Hey !  You think you can out old  geezer me !  ?  You young 'un ....   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been over such debates and arguments for the past 20 years. Not come across anything that is convincing about IMT.

 

 

 

 

Did you enjoy your ride earlier?  

Also does the name Doreen mean anything to you? 

I saw two aboriginal people (one man and one woman) connected with you...also an old tree, not sure what it was.

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

This could be the beginning of what I call 'That old river argument '    on two forums (history and anthropology) it has several threads on it from various academics and researchers  and has some running to over  30 pages 

 

< loads up the cannon > 

 

I hope your headache gets better .

 

Do you know whats good for a headache ?     

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

A blow to the head with a hammer ... thats good for a headache, give you one in seconds .

 

I’m an old geezer and have been over such debates and arguments for the past 20 years. Not come across anything that is convincing about AMT. In fact, If you watch the video I shared in the OP, he shreds the DNA studies to bits  
 

There’s no need to suggest violence to resolve medical conditions btw.  A good nights sleep is all I needed.  

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Interesting but not particularly new - the article doesn't source his conclusions so it's hard to comment apart from it is most probably correct as far as I can tell.

Yeah I'm in touch with some researchers in this space. Thought I'd address a few points made in the other thread by nungali (mainly didn't want to deal with the walls of text on that thread + was dealing with a splitting headache yesterday) --

• Traditional scholars don't necessarily have to be focused on religion. Traditional scholars  are those who take the emic approach -- who know how to read and understand the original sanskrit text and immersed in the culture/tradition. Indic culture is so complex that unless one is 'born and raised' they can never fully comprehend the intricacies (For example, things that are apparent to people like me, westerners will hardly ever understand). They might be focused on the spiritual aspects or even historical or sociological research. To somehow relegate traditional scholars to religious studies is a big fat red herring  (and a classic rejoinder by western academics) 
• When I suggested that the ancient world and the Vedic texts consider the extent of the culture/civilization spanning from West Asia to Russia, it was immediately misinterpreted as my claiming that I'm espousing it from a genetic or racial perspective. On the contrary, just like Western culture/civlization today spans racial boundaries, it is more than plausible that Indic culture/civilization spanned and influenced a large part of the ancient world. In fact, later historical evidence seems to point towards that -- From Ancient Greece through the European expeditions that set out to find India, it seems like Indic civilization/culture had a wide spread and influence. One such example is here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushara

Thought I'd set a few points straight here...

Also a great video to watch, which demystifies the Genetic arguments of AIT/AMT --

https://youtu.be/1bsyi4zYHP0

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/ahmedabad/scientists-find-proof-of-saraswati-existence/amp_articleshow/72432177.cms?__twitter_impression=true

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

Oh !  I thought you got  sparked by someone treading on your OIT poodle .  

 

Touché! 

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

Good idea . What have you got to offer as an insight about Sumer ? 

Not much. That’s why I didn’t say anything about it  

I just found OP creation hymn similar to that in the Rig Veda. And shared, along with what I consider better dates for their creation.

Little did I know I was stepping on someone’s pet poodle here  

13 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Finally we're on my turf again.   I've no idea what the Hindu national party is trying to prove, perhaps stuff similar to what all nationalist parties everywhere are always trying to prove -- vast superiority of their own over "other," toward boosting national pride, a reliable engine of distraction.  I think the term Indo-European has become controversial while I wasn't looking -- l wasn't aware of the controversy when it was part of my university course in comparative linguistics, I just studied for the tests, and when you do, you try not to worry too much about whether what you study actually exists (some of what I had to study actually didn't -- we had some funky subjects then and there...  but I suspect here and now there's even more of those non-existent sciences in existence.) 

 

But one thing I know for sure.  I don't know whether Indians migrated to Russia or vice versa (Russian nationalist parties now assert it's vice versa), but far as the language is concerned -- get this -- I understand a good deal of Sanskrit.  Which I never learned.  I understand it due to its uncanny similarity to Russian.  Not just the vocabulary for a lot of primary, basic words but the structure of the words, syntax, grammar, even style.  I have a good ear for languages in general, but I don't understand any Farsi, Kyrgyz, Tajik or Turkish or Arabic.  Sanskrit is different.  Go figure.  

It is a documented fact that some 

 Vedic sages were from the Russian region. A famous female sage (Rishika) Lopamudra being one such. 
 

I don’t think the ancient world was as isolated as most would have us believe. I mean, India had trade ties with pretty much all the civilized world - Mesopotamia, Ancient Greece, China, Egypt, etc.

It is really tragic to see history being weaponized — though it’s not a lone phenomenon in the case of  India by any means.

I know enough about the traditional material of India to know there was never any story of an Aryan invasion or any large exodus. 
 

Proper dating of the Vedic literature makes it a contemporary (and more than likely the same) as the so called ‘Indus valley civilization’.

In texts such as Ramayana and Mahabharata are references to multiple kingdoms and tribes who are located in West and Central Asia all the way up to Russia as part of the extended civilization itself. 
 

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

It is a cop out and it is covered by more bunk . Aryan 'race' is BS . What has been looked at is Aryan CULTURE and I can put up evidence to show from archaeology and  genetics that the people of BMAC  had a very mixed ethnic background  (and I use those  words as there is no such thing as 'race'. )

 

ONE meaning that came to develop , mostly in the Indian branch, does mean  'noble'  but it isnt the only meaning. At different times and places, sub-sets of Arya had various meanings for the word .  Again, in archaeology and in anthropology Aryan is a designation of a type of culture .

 

If you dont care to expend your energies on this stuff you should not have made  bias claims in the first place and  also should not have thought that calling people that ascribe to the academic view  'commies'  would be ignored.

 

What, you thought that would NOT  'call me out ' ?  Well, I am called out  and if you cant back up what you have said, I am calling YOU out for  right wing bullshit .

 

Please demonstrate how the scholars involved in the development of AMT (around the world)  are 'commies' . Otherwise, what you wrote is  right wing conspiracy BS .

 I didn’t say the “scholars” are commies. I said Indian commies jumped on that bandwagon very quickly. There is a famous university in India called the JNU, which is a breeding ground of communists and ultra-left lunatics in India, who continued to perpetrate this myth of AIT/AMT and deny traditional scholars and researchers a voice for a long time. 
 

I wish I could spend time having a discourse on this topic. But I’ve done so with hundreds of people over the past 20 yrs or so and don’t have the patience to rehash this again. 
 

I merely offered an alternative perspective with timelines. I don’t particularly care who agrees or disagrees with it. It’s a free world, believe what you must. 

Let’s talk about Sumeria now.  

Here are some videos I took of my master demonstrating and explaining some concepts of taijiquan application. 
 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

As Nungali has already pointed out that article is all over the place - and I am sure the journalist who penned it did not understand what was being said to him.  It doesn't link to the original research paper either.  But Harrapan DNA is interesting in itself.  Why people are still quoting Mortimer Wheeler (even to debunk him) I have no idea, he died in 1976 FGS.  Any political influence should also be rejected as apart from anything else whatever we now call a country or people is irrelevant in 2000 BC or before.

 

I don't mind Out of India if it turns out to be true - but my sketchy understanding of the weight of linguistic and genetic evidence is Into India.  Anyway - what's the problem? - everyone comes from somewhere (else) if you go far back enough - didn't Vikings found the first Russian state (or has this been debunked now also  ).

 

I watched most of that Neelesh Oak vid you posted - very interesting and I bought one of his books on Kindle:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00INBA1UW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

The Historic Rama: Indian Civilization at the End of Pleistocene 

 

hope it' good

His books are good. Glad you got a copy. 

There are many factors in play along with genetic data, but I don’t have the time or patience to go into them right now. It’s not a cop out but I just don’t care to expend my energies on this kind of stuff anymore. 
 

As far as aryan “race” is concerned, it is very clear that there never was such a race. Arya means noble or cultured. So much havoc has been caused by pompous Europeans who wanted to justify their conquests that we’re still trying to clean up the debris from their taking a massive dump on Indian history (among others). 

Just now, Nungali said:

'Competing studies '   ?   Interesting . 

Yeah there is a lot of politics involved. Western academia has a vested interest in continuing the AIT/AMT nonsense. They + Commies in India claim that the right wing Hindu nationalists are the ones with the agenda. 
 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

What explanation is given of the genetic and linguistic information which seems to support some kind of migration of a distinct group of people i.e. Aryans, do you know?  Thanks.

Out of India not into India 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/09/06/new-study-debunks-aryan-invasion-theory.amp.html

BTW i do know that there are competing studies which claim opposite inferences...  

Quote

Between 15000 and 6000 BCE seems like an interesting time.  Do traditional Indian estimates have any proof, evidence to corroborate this dating?  

The vedic texts themselves have sufficient astronomical data to provide time windows. Unlike ancient western astronomy, indian astronomy never suffered from the problem of not factoring in the precession of the equinoxes. As a result, traditional indian astronomy quite accurate by modern standards.

There has been a great and concerted effort by western academics who still milk the "Aryan Invasion/Aryan Migration theory" and just scatterbrained ascription of dates by 19th century europeans like Max Mueller, Mortimer Wheeler etc, to prevent fresh study.

I know a few traditionally trained indian scholars personally who've relentlessly pursued the truth over the past 30-40 years, and its bearing fruit now.

One such brilliant scholars is Neelesh Oak. I'm pasting a video by him that discusses his methodology etc below in a spoiler window. His dating of Ramayana and Mahabharata are sufficient to result in the Rg Veda composition to be put before 10,000 BCE at the very latest. 

Quote

When in the height heaven was not named, 
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name, 
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them, 
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both 
Their waters were mingled together, 
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen; 
When of the gods none had been called into being, 
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained; 
Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven...

This reminds of the Nāsadiya Sukta from the Rig Veda, 129th verse from the 10th Mandala --

Taken the below translation from AL Basham's work

Quote

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence.
There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it.

What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping?
Was there then cosmic water, in depths unfathomed?

 

Then there were neither death nor immortality,
nor was there then the torch of night and day.

The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

 

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined water.

That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.

 

In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind.

The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom
know that which is, is kin to that which is not.

 

And they have stretched their cord across the void,
and know what was above, and what below.

Seminal powers made fertile mighty forces.
Below was strength, and over it was impulse.

 

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
whence it all came, and how creation happened?

The gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

 

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.

The Rig Veda was arbitrarily attributed a composition date of 1500 BCE by European philologists based on their belief in the Biblical Creation date of ~ 4000 BCE. Traditional Indian estimates this between 15000 BCE and 6000 BCE (depending on who you reference)..

Couldn't help but see a striking similarity 

2 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I agree.  You don't just give a scalpel to anyone who would be surgeon, or else there's no telling a surgeon from a thug. 

 

Where do we find surgeons who don't cut out vital organs from the forum just because they can?  I thought mod rotation was somewhat of a solution.  The worst started happening when that was abolished.  If a poster runs into a personally or otherwise selectively hostile mod impossible to get along with, at least it's not forever.  And maybe make it short?  Like, three months tops?  The problem is, will there be takers?    

 

And if it all goes unmoderated, no holds barred -- well, unfortunately, the ideal of an anarchy usually runs into a peculiar obstacle online.  To wit, people who don't actually live in an anarchy anywhere in their real lives don't know how to use it.  They may have a whole lot of pent-up urges toward freedom -- but the only freedom available is a virtual anarchy place, guess where all that pent-up dynamite will go.  Have you seen what's going on elsewhere and everywhere where there's no moderation? 

 

Still, at this point I would also prefer a chaotic battlefield of a forum to an Orwellian order or a rule of thugs with zero accountability.  Neither one is very appealing, but if one has to choose...      

I would rephrase an old chinese proverb to answer this -

"Those who want to moderate, aren't qualified to do so. Those who can moderate, do not want to do it. Those who can both moderate and also want to do it, are surely rare indeed."

But I think that absolute power always has a potential to corrupt. Rotating moderators seems like a good option. I think easiest thing to do is encourage members to self-moderate. Before posting something, ask themselves the following --

1. Is what I'm going to post true?
2. If it is true, is it necessary?
3. Even if it is necessary, can I word it more kindly?

We have to deal with differences of opinions for sure, but let us be amicable whenever possible. When not, let us use the "ignore" option. 

Just want to put in my 2 cents worth, fwiw. I didn’t find @Everything as bearing malicious intent or negativity in his posts that I’ve read.

That said, I have also advised him in the past to learn how to be more precise with his words. It is literally overwhelming to see a wall of words as are in his posts. At least now he uses paragraphs, initially it was just one single para  

I find others such as Drew (ViYY) far more negative, and I know he baits me personally for some strange reason. That said, I just ignore his posts. Makes life easier for me. I don’t condone censorship or banning. A moderator censure is fine by me. 
 

But please let us not go back to the autocratic ways of some of the previous mods. IMHO, Only thing more painful than trolls is experiencing 

 moderator belligerence!

12 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

This thread's original post really should be incorporated as the main rules of the site. The rest of the thread is sadly a demonstration of what was wrong with some people who were administering this forum and the abuse of power. 

I still think these could be adapted for meaningful and growth-oriented discourses. Not as rules per se. 

Unfortunately that period when the OP happened was a very tumultuous period. And I do believe the original intent of this post got buried in the politics. 

7 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

To old guys/ ladies, say those over 60 , of course cultivating Ming is their priority . Theory about Ming is also much easier to grasp as they are related to things like  what postures better , which dantian to start, what time give you most effects , ways of breathing..etc. That means,  old people should handle something more urgent ,  use something more handy  so as lengthen their life span for decades ,say up to 100,  so that  after retirement  they get the time to explore Xing . Understanding Xing is much difficult and there is no guarantee, but once people  get it ,   all Ming's problems become easy.

The way i see it, Xing should be a natural progression from Ming cultivation. Not strictly sequential, but overlapping once one gets to the intermediate level of ming cultivation. As Ming cultivation matures, it leads to greater mental clarity, thereby allowing the practitioner to start grasping Xing. 

And this is not unique to Daoist traditions either -- it is similar for Yoga/Tantra and other dharmic practices.