liminal_luke

Neither. Just the memory of a rather extensive (and not much fun) debate with you sometime back about this very same "point" in which nobody convinced anybody of anything. If I thought things might go differently this time around I might give it a shot, but I don´t.

Thanks Dustybeijing. You asked for some links and here they are: the results of my quick websearch on the environmental fallout of vegetarianism. I haven´t researched these (and am not really up for a scientific tit-for-tat) but I think this preliminary list suggests that the issue is far from resolved. http://www.sciencealert.com/vegetarian-and-healthy-diets-may-actually-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1250532/Being-vegetarian-does-harm-environment-eating-meat.html http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/ordering-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-your-hands http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/can-animals-save-us/joel-salatin-how-to-eat-meat-and-respect-it-too http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/vegetarian-diet-bad-for-environment-meat-study-lettuce-three-times-worse-emissions-bacon-a6773671.html http://huntergatherer.com/prominent-vegan-advocate-22i-was-wrong-about-veganism-22/ The people who I respect, by the way, are not the factory farmers. And not the people eating factory-farmed meat either. I don´t dispute that this kind of farming is bad for our health, bad for our environment, and unbelievably cruel to the animals. But as farmers like Joel Salatin point out, that´s not the only way to raise meat. Just so you know. I found it interesting that you feel judged by meat-eaters because I feel judged by vegetarians. While it´s true that most people eat meat, those same people believe (erroenously, in my opinion) that vegetarian diets are healthier. I hope you don´t think I´m judgemental. If you´re diet is working for you and you feel good about it, more power to you. Yes, I´m a little closed-off to information that I perceive as pro- vegetarianism. Maybe I should lighten up? It´s just that most of the vegetarians who have tried to influence me about this issue (in person -- not you) have just oozed hate. Or at least that was my perception. Happy eating (however you do it), Liminal

Although we disagree about so much, Karl, I´ll take you at your word that you wouldn´t discriminate. You seem more principled than hateful, to me. Not principles I´d espouse, mind you, but principles just the same. I wouldn´t even call you small-minded. A cyber rabble-rouser? Hey, if the shoe fits...

I´ve been called worse. But only by small-minded people.

Free speech is great because you can just ignore views you disagree with, unless of course we´re talking about Ralis objecting to discrimination and hatred -- in which case it´s controlling and arrogant? Of course you´re right that the mods have the last say. But if we´re going to allow small-minded people to spout off about their prejudices, shouldn´t we also allow big-minded people to call them out about it?

Transgender or no, part of becoming spiritually mature, in my opinion, is coming to peace with our dual yin-yang, male-female nature. Even the manliest men have feminine sides (and vice versa), and getting familiar with the whole kitchen-kaboodle of our human qualities is part of the process.

Thanks for this, BES. I was hoping someone would post a personal perspective -- just what this thread needed. People treat the whole transgender thing as some kind of political fight they need to pick sides in. But all around me all I see are people, some very different from myself, that ask nothing more from me than to let them be. Extra credit for feeling gratitude and appreciation for each and every glorious, blessed person, place, and thing.

I´m not working with them anymore, but the Kan & Li practices I learned from Michael Winn used the distinction between yin and yang energies. Basically we collected different yin and yang energies (from our bodies, the immediate environment, the planets, the stars, etc -- depending on the level you´re working at) and used them to fuel the alchemical process. Normally fire (yang) rises and water (yin) descends. So invert the process placing the yang fiery energies below the yin watery energies (collected together in a nice cauldron) and you get a nice neutral energy -- steam or yuan chi. That´s a very abbreviated capsule version as I remember it.

I don´t know what causes a person to be transgender. Is it best considered a mental illness, a physical illness, or not an illness at all and just part of the glorious variation of life? Beats me. All I know is that these are real people whose suffering is real. And it´s not my place to make that suffering a million times worse because of my own discomfort. Whatever the etiology of trangenderism, it´s not my place to sit in judgement. One of my best friends has cerebral palsy. One of his hands curls in so he can´t open his palm. It´s hard, of course, not having two working hands, but the hardest part for him is worrying about what other people think of him -- the hardest part is not being "accepted" as a person with cerebral palsy. And that´s a damn shame. Nobody should feel like less of a human being because their hands don´t look like everybody else´s. In the same way, nobody should be made to feel like less of a person because they are transgender. We´re all just doing the best we can here in life, and if someone born with male genitals wants to put on a dress and makeup and call herself Nancy than that´s nobody´s business but her own.

With the possible exception of me? I, for one, am not feeling the love.

Bodhicitta, Have I got you all wrong? Surgery may not be the answer, in general or in a specific case, but for the most part those who advocate for it as a treatment possibility are well-meaning. Or at least that´s my assumption. To call their advocacy a "progressive hobby" sounds dismissive. They are people who, for the most part, care about transgender people and want the best for them. So this is my perception. The way you worded your opening post as well as the article you link to strikes me as disrespectful and demeaning. But when I point that out, you say I am making presumptions and misunderstand you. Perhaps so. Let me ask you, then, how you feel and what you think to clear up any possible misunderstanding on my part. Would you be supportive if you had a transgender child, or found out you had a transgender sibling? Would you support that person if they choose to dress and act like they gender they identified with? What if they used the public restroom of the gender they identified as? Would you welcome a transgender person in your workplace? As a friend? Do you experience yourself as someone who is open, kind, and compassionate with transgender people? If so, those qualities didn´t come through to me from your initial writing. My apologies if I misread you. Liminal

Whether transgenderism is best treated with counseling, hormones, surgery, or some combination thereof may be the point of the article, but it´s not the point of my posts. My point is this: these people are real; their problems are real; they deserve our respect. Referring to transgender people as indulging in the "latest progressive hobby" is not respectful. Period. Nobody decides to get gender reassignment surgery because they are a liberal hobbyist. They just don´t. Whether or not transgender people benefit more from talk therapy or surgery isn´t the issue. The issue is kindness.

I apppreciate your post Edward. Anybody considering these kind of drugs should do so with full "informed consent," aware of all the drawbacks and dangers as well as the potential benefits. Hearing about the experiences of other people who´ve taken these medications is important. Thanks for sharing. (Oops, I see you´ve deleted your posts. I get why you might be concerned: that someone might read what you have to say and not get treatment they need. And yes, it would be a mistake for somebody to make a treatment decision based solely on your experience. Then again, it´s often a mistake to make a treatment decision based solely on the advice of a psychiatrist as well.)

I don´t want to stifle conversation. Like Dustybeijing, I just hope it comes from a respectful compassionate place. The OP referred to transgender concerns as "the latest progressive hobby." We can do better.

We can argue all day about the nature of transgender identity but here´s the thing: articles like the one above fuel misunderstanding, contempt, even hatred, towards people whose experience of gender is outside the norm. Just look at the way this thread is titled: transgender problem. Reminds me of the "Jewish problem" in nazi Germany. It´s not that there´s no room for academic debate around transgenderism. Just that I hope people approach the issue with understanding and compassion -- indeed, with Bodhicitta -- for the very real people touched by the issue. Liminal

In case anyone´s interested, here´s the first chapter of The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. http://www.lierrekeith.com/book-ex_the-vegetarian-myth.php It doesn´t go in-depth into all the arguments -- it´s just a first chapter-- but perhaps it´s enough to give people who are interested a taste of what she has to say. Of course, it´s been debunked by vegetarians on-line. And their debunking has been double-debunked by the meat-eating camp. There´s no end to this, unfortunately. But for those interested in exploring the idea that vegetarianism isn´t all pistacios and peaches, here´s a start.

Yes, I´m biased. But that´s not why I´m not considering the possible validity of your list. I´m not considering the possible validity of your list because I´m not equipped to do so. Neither of us has the kind of expertise necessary to evaluate the accuracy of that kind of list. Very few people do. But that´s what it takes. Otherwise, bullet lists of figures and facts are worse than useless -- worse than useless because they mislead people into thinking they know something when they don´t. I can do my own websearch and come up with information that points me to exactly the opposite conclusion. That agriculture, ie plants, are responsible for so much more environmental destruction than animals. That, in fact, agriculture is responsible for the death of more sentient creatures than animal husbandry. It´s not so simple as you suggest. I could put up some of those links. (Or you could read The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith.) I will if you´d like me too, but frankly it wouldn´t do any good. Because neither of us have the expertise required to separate statistical truth from statistical lies. What´s the point? What I personally find more useful is personal anecdote. I´m not convinced you´re able to plumb the ethical, environmental, and medical complexities of how people ought to feed themselves around the world -- but you´re the world´s foremost authority on Dustybeijing. Your personal experience doesn´t necessarily to generalize to the larger population but it´s true for you and worthy of note. Has your health improved since becoming vegetarian? Do you feel lighter, more inclined towards spiritual practice? Do you smile at the grocery store, proud of making changes that bring your eating more in-line with your personal values? If so, I´d be interested to know. That would be so much more useful for everybody than posting dueling lists of questionable facts proving nothing at all. Just my opinion. Liminal

What´s the saying? Listen to your heart, but check your movie rental history.

I once referred a vegetarian friend (yes, I do have them) to a vegetarian acupuncturist/naturopath. In spite of his own long-standing practice of avoiding meat for ethical reasons, he urged her to incorporate animal protein in her diet for health reasons. Then again, my acupuncturist was an unusually flexible guy. I haven´t found many vegetarians who feel that meat-free is the right way for them, while acknowledging that many people do better health-wise with some high-quality animal fare. If you are such a vegetarian, I salute you. For me, the problem with the list of facts presented by Dustybeijing -- what turns me off from even considering their potential validity -- is that I believe they come from impossibily biased sources. Not that you, DB, are necessarily biased -- you´re just passing them on. I´m just so positive that the original makers of such lists would never even consider any science that didn´t accord with their view. To get an accurate picture, I´d have to do so much more than read that list and take it at face-value. I´d have to do in-depth analysis on both sides. I´d have to become an expert. It would take months of painstaking work and scientific research skills that, frankly, I don´t presently possess and wouldn´t be easily come by. To do anything less is to end up parroting a biased position, and what´s the sense of that?

The problem with so much of the information presented in favor of vegetarianism or meating eat is that almost nobody starts with an open mind and simply investigates the facts. It´s all backwards. Vegetarians start out convinced that not eating meat is the way to go and then, having already locked onto that postion, look for all the evidence in support of their view. Ditto for many meat eaters. Few people from either camp will allow reality to interfere with their decision.

In general, Marblehead, we have different tastes when it comes to these things. I´m with you here though: if there is one thing I can´t stand in a sexual partner it´s gospel singing.

Ever wonder about the popularity of erotic vampire stories? For me blood sucking is a metaphor for the kind of sex people look for when they feel cut off from their own essential wholeness; sex can be an attempt to complete oneself through erotically importing inner qualities perceived (mistakenly) as missing in oneself. Part of erotic maturity is finding those qualities in ourselves so that we can couple sexually with another without needing to steal any of their spiritual essence and vitality.

Thanks Bodhidhara. Glad to hear the post made sense to you. I believed in what I said but didn´t feel quite right about the post so I deleted it. If you got something out of it that´s the main thing. Liminal

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I like this, Orion. Sometimes love is having enough sensitivity to treat somebody how they would like to be treated, even if that´s different from how we wish people are with us.