freeform

As someone who’s been deeply involved in internal arts for a couple of decades - I’d also 100% recommend working out (callisthenics), getting strong and flexible and maybe learning some martial arts (in-person… just find a good boxing/kick-boxing/bjj gym - look for gyms with a good, friendly atmosphere and where everyone works hard and places honour and integrity above force and violence)…

This, at your age, will set you up to benefit from qigong or any other type of internal art more than anything else.  

50 minutes ago, markern said:

more and more memory problems

Yeah - I mean I wouldn’t call it problems 😅

The reality is that it’s all still in there - just we’re used to using emotion as a kind of hook to be able to fish them out. You probably can easily remember getting bullied as a kid or your first romantic encounter - or anything like that - but less likely you’d be able to remember an ordinary school day.

For me functional memory has always been fine and unaffected by practice… 

What can happen with some meditators is when an error creeps into their practice - they basically start to dull their mind as a simulation of stillness… dull your mind enough and you’ll quickly feel like your thinking has stopped. 
 

This certainly has associated problems.

Oh and yes - what I was talking about - remembering your day in perfect detail - that’s the start of the practice. Later we use this perfect recall ability to review key periods in life for various purposes.

Good use of visualisation

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

i have a complaint about that. you see my intro course explains the entire working of the universe, the human life death and immortality, the principles and practices of all and any neidan, religion and cultivation. Seriously, it does. But a few times when i explicitly and clearly taught it to a student - the student just shrugged and said to himself  'nah this is just stupid, i just wasted a benjamin on this fool and his  silly gibberish'. at least thats the impression i got. makes me sad a smidge. 

Ahh buyers remorse eh.

Well either you’re casting pearls before swine…

Or pig crap before pearl bearing oysters…

(that analogy took a weird turn - sorry!)

I’d say that the carrot dangling/ keeping cards close to your chest approach is what causes it.

If your students knew ahead of time your particular take on the ‘entire workings of the universe’, they’d effectively self-select by buying in or opting out based on whether they align with your views or not.

Or is your view particularly unpalatable?

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

which of course cannot be any more clearer

Of course if you were to be explicit about your ‘clear’ understanding, then you’d reveal your cards… then who’ll pay you!? 🫠

6 hours ago, Apech said:

Could you expand on that a little?  Do you mean it's a theory rather than practice work?

Well @Shadow_self gave a great example…

Quote

The wondrous circulation through the Three Fields requires going upward
and downward,
and one knows for oneself that East and West join in one body.
Delighted, it moves repeatedly to the summit of Mount Kunlun:
the Spinal Handle is luminous, and the path is open.

I mean it’s reasonably easy to work out that this is talking about a certain aspect of the microcosmic orbit…

However - it’s not instructional!

If you thought it’s instructional you might just imagine this circulation 😬

Which is obviously what most do.

Instead, this to me is ‘confirmatory’…

Meaning you’re apprenticing to your teacher and practicing the methods taught - and reading such poems tells you what aspects of your inner experience are ‘correct’… meaning that your inner experience is being confirmed by the writings of advanced masters from the past.

If you’re in any way contriving these experiences (whether through visualisation, focused attention, intention etc - then it will only result in sensory experience within the nervous system.

28 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Speaking of Mizner, whatever happened to his Power of Chi movie? All trace of it seems to be wiped off the internet

Found plenty of traces… YouTube clips and the website are up - but can’t seem to watch the movie itself. 
 

Seemed like a terrible idea for a film 😅
 

When you say Adam’s movie - is it actually his movie, or he’s featured in it? 

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Only if one has a narrow view of history. 

Just the very narrow slice of history where Steven Seagal is a Tulku 😅

27 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Interesting quote from Adam's book:

Didn't know he had a book! Thanks for the quote.

I like his directness - each sentence needs a little unpacking to really get… 

1 hour ago, markern said:

 

How did you work with memory and what where the results?

I’ve seen the method I learned described in Wang Li Ping’s book.

Basically an issue arises with extended practice in that the personal-emotional (Xin) entanglement with events that happen to you lessens, your memory goes to shit  

My memory became kinda terrible because there’s no emotional anchor holding it within easy reach if the mind… no juicy (or even subtle) emotion to grasp - so the memories start to slip away…

So the practice we do involves creating a sort of ‘photographic’ recall of memories… though involving all senses - not just visual.

17 minutes ago, nyerstudent said:

"Mechanistically" I believe these are all distinct, to some extent. Do others agree / disagree? Thanks for the discussion.  

Yeah they’re certainly distinct within the scope of visualisation.

From the point of something like Neigong, they’re all still a stimulation of the mind - so engaging in any three of them would ‘scatter the qi’ - or rather just cause a bunch of it to rise to the head - making it impossible for it to fully sink and begin consolidating into something denser and more powerful…

There’s also visualisations that kinda help explain a concept…

Like the concept of Sung will sometimes be explained by the image of pine tree branches moving softly but in a springy fashion when the wind blows through.

Or the elasticated connection that builds through the body as a well tuned guqin string that can carry a harmonious vibration…

24 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

One respected teacher recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku. 

Oh my!

Maybe Asa wasn’t that wrong about the tradition losing its way?

But then again if Vajrayana has Steven Seagal - us Daoists have Bruce Frantzis 😅 

6 hours ago, anshino23 said:

I personally didn't see Asa's take as discrediting Vajrayana 

To me he seemed to be sincerely dedicated to his path and to love his tradition - in many instances disagreeing with Damo (around the whole visualisation issue for example.)

1 hour ago, Barnaby said:

Or "Vajrayana is shit because they use visualisation" (paraphrasing obvs).

Haha - yeah I mean I’d never say that… I felt that in Damo’s interview with the Vajrayana fellow he was saying that there’s a key element missing (Qi) in Vajrayana practice… and it’s this missing element that is making the visualisation aspect impotent.

Quote

"If you use imagination, you'll get imaginary results”

This statement on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish.

I feel it has some truth to it - as the results of imagination will manifest at the level of mind/imagination (sense-consciousness) - and not on a physical or spiritual… And that’s not necessarily a bad thing - sense consciousness is clearly useful… 

26 minutes ago, steve said:

Visualization can be effectively used to assist in accessing meditative absorption. An example of this is the practice of guru yoga in dzogchen. Dzogchen teachers sometimes make statements like ‘there is no dzogchen without guru yoga.’ It is not the visualization per se that is directly involved in meditative absorption. What seems to be at play is taking a mind that is totally absorbed in a stable and clear visualization and then dissolving that visualization abruptly. 

Yeah that’s interesting, thanks.

My experience of meditative absorption is samadhi or on (very) rare occasions Jhanna…

In my experience these cannot be practices… they also can’t be achieved through mechanical means… there’s no practice that leads to samadhi (probably a controversial statement).

Any and all contrivances stop access to these states. Even the tiniest ‘fly in the ointment’ of the mind - any subtle unconscious striving or attempt to achieve anything at all will simply lead to mental ‘sense-consciousness’ type experience.
 

Visualisation would be like an angry hippo in the ointment from this perspective 😅

All ‘practices’ can do is prepare the ground for absorption to arise of its own accord (if I’m lucky). Creating a body and mind that is fit for these profound states to arise.

This assisting you’re talking about sounds much like these preparatory practices if I understand correctly.

2 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

I see.

 

So as I understand it, you're saying that visualisation plays no part in your understanding of your cultivation practice.

 

I understand that it does play a part in other cultivation practices, shared by millions over several centuries: Tantric ones, for instance.

 

Would it not be less dogmatic to say: I do not believe visualisation to be an effective method in my practice?

 

 

No not quite.
 

Visualisation does play a very small role in my practice firstly.

Secondly my statement isn’t only focused on my specific personal practice.

After having cultivated Qi, after having had various (admittedly minor, but to me Earth-shattering) attainments in Neidan and Jhanna - I know for a fact that visualisation cannot play a part in genuine Neidan, Qi cultivation or meditative absorption… it’s just a mechanistic impossibility. Yes you can certainly have elements of visualisation in a practice - but the main mechanic is not based on visualisation at all.

My experience is based on 25ish years of doing this stuff… 15 of which have been full-time… and I also take into account my teacher’s experience as well as the dozens of different teachers I’ve met from having dedicated a large part of my life to this.

I’m quite specific in what I’ve said - the conditions for my statement. I’m not talking about all cultivation - but specific subsets.

There are certainly practices with tons of visualisation - I’ve come across a genuinely advanced ‘sorcerer’ in the Shangqing sect who uses various visualisations for his work (though qi generation used no visualisation in his practice)… 

But again - imagining Neidan processes… imagining nimitta type experiences… imagining qi movement - none of that achieves anything more than imaginary results  

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Team Never Visualize, on the other hand, is a camp to be reckoned with -- vocal, self-assured, a touch dismissive of dissent. 

Yeah - I think I’m probably in this camp more than the other.

I’m quite specific where the ‘never visualise’ part fits. For my personal practice visualisation I’d estimate formed 0.001% of overall practice time… actually probably a lot less.

I see people using visualisation for stuff that it doesn’t work for (working with qi or meditative absorption).

I’m kinda strong in my stance too… but here’s the thing - why am I strong on this stance?

Is it coz I win brownie points? Or get something kind of self righteous pleasure out of it? 
 

I don’t think so… I find myself having to drag the words out of me for like 100th time… and feeling bad that I might hurt peoples feelings.

For me it’s more a case of trying to further this weird cultivation thing that we do!
 

I think it’s such a shame when people waste years imagining white lights or imagining microcosmic orbits - when they could be getting the real deal with the same input of time and effort.

I see my younger self earnestly doing this stuff for hours and hours every single day - wasting time, effort and ending in disappointment.
 

And I want to help that young dude avoid this pitfall.

When young, we have time, we have vigour and we have enthusiasm… and it’s such a shame that this is directed into a dead end because some dude wanted to earn book royalties.

I’m curious why people get so sensitive around visualisation…

Is it a case of sunk cost fallacy? As in ‘well I’ve spent the past 15yrs visualising - and I’m doing alright by my reckoning - so the anti visualisers must be wrong’.

Is it the case that they’ve never made it past the mind in their internal practice - and so never experienced anything other than imagination/visualisation?

Is it coz a teacher/tradition they’ve grown fond of teaches using visualisation, and so questioning its validity would be like stabbing them in the back?

To me, it was SUCH great news that all this stuff isn’t based in imagination! It’s like I finally could access a whole new world of direct experience - even though I kinda got humbled and had to admit to myself I’d wasted years on imagining results… 

12 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

we are typically engaged in forms of visualization and imagination all the time. This is exactly what delusion is: projecting something unreal and taking it to be real.

Yup. Well said.

Wouldn't dropping visualisation in this context be taking us closer to meditation (or even just stillness)…

And wouldn’t adding a whole other layer of contrived visualisation be taking us further from meditation and closer to delusion?

Context matters.

Visualising the movement of qi does not work. I had done years of this sort of practice - subtle sensations happened, yes - but real qi is about as different to visualised qi as a visualised slap in the face is different to a real slap in the face…

Visualisation is directly the opposite to what I’d call meditation (samadhi, Jhanna etc)… just as mental arithmetics is diametrically opposed to mental stillness.

I have, however, used something like visualisation for mental practice - to sharpen the mind, increase mental concentration, work with memory functions etc. That works. 

7 minutes ago, steve said:

This has been an interesting discussion. I find that I learn far more about those posting than I do about Adam Mizner and Damo Mitchell.

Yup. 
 

Well expressed.

I have to say it’s ‘discussions’ like these that make me wanna step away from this place.

It’s not even that this whole “look at me and my strong opinions about people I’ve never met” is not the least bit constructive - but more than anything it’s just so boring! 
 

It’s like the most junk form of discussion possible.

I had a go at steering it towards stuff that’s actually been discussed in the interview (which was pretty interesting - whether you like the guy or not) - but no… we rather make it into a trivial melodrama 

1 hour ago, C11 said:

Thanks for the advice! 

I like the idea to just focus on moving my body in a mindful, healthy way to start with. And then see where it gets me when my mind gets more relaxed. 

Everyone always laughs at this suggestion - but partner dancing!

Any kind of dancing really - but with a partner it’s even better.

Its fun, it’s mindful, it’s social and it’s a gentle form of exercise - and it makes other people happy too.

Its especially good for people who tend to be on the more introverted side.

I’d say that internal arts aren’t that well suited to people who suffer with anxiety and depression - because the inward focus can exacerbate these over time.

Exercise is also great - fast paced walking, jogging or callisthenics - especially in a supportive group setting.

But dancing is better  

20 minutes ago, markern said:

 

What is all the stuff and why is he sitting with all of it?

He mentions it in the interview. He carries over 70kgs of stuff on his body… as an aspect of his practice.

They're all sorts of amulets and things like that - popular in some Thai Buddhist traditions.

He gives away most of these as he goes

1 minute ago, Barnaby said:

If you devote that much effort to crafting an online public persona in what is essentially a visual medium, I don't think it's surprising if you end up attracting superficial, Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous commentary. You brought it on yourself.

If they think that smoking cigars and drinking whiskey is the right way to craft a public persona for the spiritual marketplace - then they’re waaaay off the mark! 😅

I mean look how many people they’ve turned off already!
 

The topknoted, beads and crystals types get a faaar better response among the ‘spiritual seeker’ crowd.

I think if they really were trying to attract the most number of students possible, they’d be doing that.

Just look at social media - Adam and Damo have an absolutely minuscule reach compared to pretty much anyone with the classic ‘spiritual attire’ - whether the mock-traditional or the new age variety.
 

Either they don’t care about their public persona and simply do as they please - or maybe they’re actively using it as a way of filtering out ones that are averse/attracted to outward appearance.

1 hour ago, Barnaby said:

Speaking as someone with no horse in this race, I find it weird - borderline creepy - how half the threads on here end up revolving around Damo Mitchell, with instinctive defense of everything the guy says or does. Really most peculiar. If you look back through the archives, it didn’t use to be this way…

Yeah I think that’s a shame. 
 

I like him, I don’t like him… I agree I disagree… he’s a businessman… I can’t believe he’s smoking a cigar! Omg he’s wearing certain clothes and not wearing others etc etc.

It all feels like one of those gossip magazines.

I’ve had plenty of knee jerk likes and dislikes of people, teachers and traditions - enough that I don’t trust them…

I thought Adam looks super smug and arrogant when I first came across him… so what! I know well enough how limited my reactions are.

I find it fascinating that rather than talking about our experience, and discussing what they talk about, we tend to prefer talking about our knee-jerk reactions about them.

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

What's his name?

Luang Por Jamnian