freeform

24 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

It did a lot to turn me off to Qigong and caused me to look to Buddhism.

Did you find the same situation in Buddhism? Or no?

 

I did.
 

Maybe a bit more ‘mature’ as a group generally - but there’s just as many people stuck in self delusion and intellectualism masquerading as spirituality.

26 minutes ago, markern said:

 

But don't Taoists, at least in the lineages with very gentle methods, tend to think forceful methods are wrong and don't take you as far as less contrived methods? So doing something different would be more effective. Even though this may still work in some way. 

I’ve got a slightly unpopular opinion… and that’s that systems or traditions or even methods don’t really matter as much as people think…

 

Yes I personally believe that Daoist methods are superior overall for most people… but then again there are plenty of Daoist assholes!! So I’m certainly not completely right about that!

 

The method itself doesn’t matter…

 

Not if you have a genuinely accomplished teacher.

 

If I had come across a Voodoo priest with the almost saintly qualities of my teacher - and the various miraculous abilities and skills that he uses for benevolent means - I’d be doing Voodoo right now!

 

If you have a Tibetan teacher who is highly attained (or at least has a highly attained teacher of their own) - and they show you methods that don’t agree with other methods - then don’t be silly and let the opportunity of training with them slip by - just because books or people online say something contradictory!

 

I remember many years ago when I was really into psychology, I would read about Milton Erickson and his case studies…

 

They were wild… he’d get his patient to go bury a shoe and her chronic schizophrenia simply stopped - completely healed!

 

Yeah but burying shoes is frowned upon by Freudian psychologists 😂

 

Its different early on of course - or if this stuff is a hobby… then it’s worth exploring (bear in mind in that video the guy said - don’t do this stuff if you haven’t been trained - listen to these warnings!)…

 

Explore and talk to people using the methods and getting results. 
 

Talking to live people is much better than reading or thinking or making your own assumptions about stuff.

 

You can usually get a vibe straight away - even with online training… listen to that vibe… it’s possible to be open and non judgemental while keeping your wits about you and staying skeptical… its a fine line and needs constant adjustment to stay on that fine line.

 

Theres no pure Daoist alchemy (even within lineages)… there’s no pure Vajrayana - our only access to these things (outside of books) is through other people - teachers, students etc… Look at them rather than the mental projection of these traditions and their methods. The people are more important than the methods… they’re a better barometer for the effectiveness of the methods and they’re a better transmitter of the methods (than books for example).

 

Hope that answer doesn’t come across as harsh - this is me trying to be helpful 😅

I’ve been in both camps  

 

I spent years in the metaphorical camp… I did retreats, trained for hours every day (using imagination and visualisation 😁)… I met several of the famous teachers in modern Daoism…

 

I was on the right track - my expectations were carefully self-managed… and it all matched my very skeptical and analytical world view - so it was all good.

 

Then I met a teacher with real Qi… meaning Qi that had been cultivated (rather than the natural qi we all have)… And suddenly my carefully crafted world-view of these arts was cracked wide open. What I thought was qi circulating in my MCO was just sensation created through mental stimulation!

 

Real Qi was nothing like that… it was way more powerful, visceral and objective.

 

This was clearly something extraordinary - it passed my very analytical, skeptical filter (I already knew everything about hypnosis, suggestibility, trance states and cooperative imagination - this was nothing like that at all).

 

Having my worldview broken open like that, I suddenly realised that there’s a whole side of these arts that I had dismissed - and now I had to question all that.

 

So I went the other way, I naively started to believe various teachers… they could demonstrate the cultivated Qi - so surely their other stories must be true…

 

And of course I got burned. Just coz someone has some attainment, doesn’t mean they’re fully realised or even fully mature as a human. The skeptical mindset came back (luckily)…

 

So I continued to search (qi stuff wasn’t the most important thing for me - spirituality was)…

 

Going through this same pattern several times - but this time with Spirit rather than just Qi… turns out you can be awakened, but still have a major part of you completely unresolved…

 

Eventually I had access to people beyond extraordinary… I had experiences that proved to my skeptical mind that even though there’s a muddled mass of half awake, Qi wielding - but shallow masters, tons of charlatans and half-charlatans, many power seekers, many ‘away with the fairies’ spiritual types… tons of delusional types - but there’s also more than that. Far stranger than I could even imagine - even after reading the books that we all know.

 

Mind you, I spent all my time and money on this… I left a very lucrative job and sold up all my accumulated assets to pursue this… neglected relationships and family, lost a career, stable income etc. I don’t have a car, kids or a house… I’m pretty much a transient hobo 😁 So this is certainly not for everyone.

 

But yes - I believe the things we read in some of the classics, or some of the stories about highly accomplished individuals are true and are literal.
 

But my advice is to continue being skeptical (truly skeptical - not ‘cynical’ masquerading as ‘skeptical’ - a true skeptic questions all the biases including their own… especially their own!)… half truths are more harmful than full-on falsehoods.

I like the outfits and the topknots!  

 

These outfits are very popular with Chinese audiences who have a voracious appetite for historical costume dramas!

On 22/01/2023 at 2:54 AM, gekko said:

I've done 100 days each of a few styles now (Fragrant Qigong, Spring Forest Qigong including sessions w/Master Lin, Zhan Zhuang).

Well done for the perseverance and discipline it took to do that!

 

Thats almost a year of daily practice - well done  

 

With no disrespect meant - these systems you’ve mentioned are simplified methods for older folk or for the masses. Designed as simple, gentle follow-along movements - helpful for many people indeed…

 

But if you’re reasonably healthy, active and young - these will have minimal effect (and Lam Jam’s ZZ, is problematic imo)… For older folk with arthritis - it may be a different story.

12 hours ago, markern said:

Sp do you think this is a wrong approach to practice? That they should learn more from the Taoist approach?

No - I wouldn’t say that. 
 

One should do what works… if it’s worked for their teacher - and that’s what their teacher is showing them - than that’s the correct method  

 

15 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

Sometimes this makes me wonder why in the Pali cannon it seems like people became enlightened frequently and yet these days that doesn't seem to happen very often at all. It makes me wonder what was being taught that didn't get passed down?

An explanation for this from people I respect:

 

There are several factors as to why you hear of people getting enlightened so seemingly easily in the old texts…

 

This wasn’t an internet connected age… there weren’t planes, trains and automobiles…

 

This means that the people who sought out the Buddha would either have been exceptionally dedicated practitioners (to undertake the arduous journey they would’ve had to take to get there and to have even heard of him)… They would also have had exceptional karma to have been blessed with having the insight to seek him out - as well as having the means to access to such a high level master.

 

So the people that came into contact with the Buddha were mostly already the cream of the crop… but they also were in the presence of this incredibly attained being who radiated a transmission of the highest attainment at all times.

 

So with that combination of factors, it’s no wonder why so many became arahants so quickly in his presence.

 

Who knows if that’s true… but seems reasonable to me.

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

Very interesting as I've been studying and practicing Buddhism for over a decade now and I've never heard of any of this but maybe that's because I studied primarily the Pali Cannon. So that makes me wonder if either it's hidden in the Pali Cannon like some things are supposedly hidden within the Dao De Jing or if it's a later development? 

No, I don’t think it’s hidden in the Pali cannon… 

 

IT’s the sort of thing that’s passed down in person… You can see it a lot in Chan - though there tends to be a big difference between Dharma as a study vs Dharma as cultivation… we rarely get to see the latter.

 

I suspect that originally it comes from a mixing of Buddhist and pre-Buddhist yogic cultivation systems. But who knows…

44 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi! 😊

 

Could you describe some of this interplay with regards to the 10 heavenly stems and 12 earthly branches? 

That’s too big a topic to be honest… 

 

Heaven is consciousness… Earth is body… the 10 stems and 12 branches are at the level of the Qi… It’s the Jing, Qi Shen model. It’s the interplay of preheaven spirit joining with preheaven essence as it manifests onto the physical level - creating time, space and life…

 

Just as we’re a microcosm of the greater macrocosm - similarly our overall reality manifests along the same lines and the stems and branches just as they generate a life cycle (from birth to death) on the microcosmic level - they manifest the process of time and change on the macrocosmic level.

 

The Daoists created a very intricate, nuanced and wholistic model of creation.

47 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

If you would care to expand on that I'd be very interested.

Well since we’ve had a vajrayana theme the last couple of weeks:

 

 

Literally beating open the channels. Blocking, breath holding, pressurising… hitting the mat with the legs to descend the qi… jumping down onto the hui yin point with great force to raise the qi…

 

Super directed, contrived practice. 
 

Very different to the Daoist approach that would just allow the qi to sink or raise of its own accord after setting up of internal conditions.

 

The YJJ process - (not the gentle stretching stuff) - is also very intense… even with the Daoist adaptation that took out some of the more forceful aspects, it’s still the case that if by the end of the session there’s not a puddle of sweat and you’re not feeling bruised and exhausted like you’ve been through a car crash, you’re probably not doing the correct method.

 

Theres other Buddhist-line practices I’ve done with various rather forced breathing methods, breath holds and so on…

 

And of course Shaolin gongfu methods are no joke either 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

a few warning signs

Just one more to add… even genuine  ‘supernatural powers’ of some sort don’t mean that the teacher is benevolent… 

 

In fact if supernatural powers is the main focus - that’s one of the big red flags to look for…

 

Often it’s a mix of genuine supernatural power mixed with a ton of fake stuff. A focus on power will always lead to the acting out of the basest desires of the self and the higher virtues like kindness, humility, patience, truthfulness etc - they’re discarded.

 

15 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

He graduated to making feature length films as opposed to writing book length posts

 

Probably figured out it was easier on the fingers  

 

 

I expected his speaking pace to be at least 4X as fast! 

As @Shadow_self says - the channel system is the extension of consciousness into the body…

 

The 10 Heavenly stems and 12 Earthly branches describe the interplay between body and mind. (Though most think it’s about astrology )

 

The popular view of Buddhism we get in the west doesn’t reflect the Buddhism I saw in the East - at least when it comes to actual cultivation (rather than religious tradition).

 

Some of the strongest and most forceful body cultivation methods I’ve seen come from various Buddhist lines… Daoist methods are far more gentle and nuanced.

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh wow. what is it?

Ah sarcasm - the sweet lubricator of authentic discussion…

 

Oh wait - did I get that right? 
 

2 hours ago, Mandrake said:

Very, very important here to state which tradition and lineage we are speaking about here, as what's implied could vary a lot.

 

Oh yeah - sorry, I forget to mention these things sometimes - especially when replying to a question from someone familiar with my POV.
 

Pretty much everything I say comes from Daoist alchemical traditions… and some from a Burmese esoteric Buddhist tradition (Theravadan - but a bit different ) 

 

Definitely not Vajrayana! 
 

Though I find most genuine tantric systems (whether Hindu, Daoist or Buddhist) line up close.

1 minute ago, MIchael80 said:

I was taught in different lineages that "rainbow body" (meaning the physical form completly disolves into light)is the highest attainment.

 

Oh it might just be a different nuance in description.

 

Yes - dissolving into a bright white light is a sign that the transmutation is complete.

 

Dissolving into a rainbow light means the 5 lights have not fully fused and as a result refract upon ascension.

 

From what I’ve heard - the rainbow body attainment actually is a lot more dramatic to an observer - the sky is filled with rainbow light and is visible for miles around.

 

Dissolving into pure light (no refraction) is a more localised blinding white light - the body slowly dissolves leaving nothing but light that then fades suddenly with nothing left behind.

 

The rainbow body indicates that although all physical karma has been fully transmuted, the final fusion of the soul into original spirit hasn’t been completed - and the separation of the spirit into the 5 (pre heavenly) lights is the result upon death…

 

From what I understand it means that you might need to incarnate thousands of years later… though you’d certainly not incarnate as a ‘normal’ sort of human anyway. Maybe a prophet/saint sort of figure.

 

This is just from information I’ve been told - not something I’ve witnessed!

 

Though I’ve seen weird enough stuff that makes this seem somewhat plausible 😅

21 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Ugh, pills (Personally, I think  i'd prefer my powdered deceased master relics snorted through a bank note, or in some tea )

I seem to remember that there’s some eating of your master’s flesh in the Tibetan traditions too 

13 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The higher attainment leaves no such thing behind though I believe, that's tho whole gone and never ever coming back thing? 

As far as I understand yeah…  

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Is that not a few steps down from the higher attainment though?

Yeah rainbow body is considered a lower attainment… which is funny because it’s like a one in a billion sort of thing.

 

The crystal relics - also a ‘lower level’ byproduct - they tend to happen as the density of Yang qi gets so great that it implodes in on itself and crystallises into physical form… These are then sometimes powdered and used in initiatory pills that the disciples of the master then consume… strange stuff 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kojiro said:

Honestly I think ZYD resources are not helpful to say the least. Does he really think that chanting to a chinese supernatural being will help these women with their trauma? really? is that serious?

Yeah.

 

 IMO a break away from all supernatural stuff would be far more helpful…

 

Come back to it after 6 to 12 months - the body and mind need to reset away from that plane of existence…

 

Get the body and mind focused and strongly involved in something completely different (gardening… volunteering… learning to dance… swimming or some other exercise routine etc).

 

Anything esoteric one does (even the normally very helpful practices) without this reset will simply feed the existing process that’s already underway.

 

Yes an intervention from an attained master may be of help - but they’re very hard to find.
 

A reset would be easier  

Always best to consult a Chinese Medicine practitioner in-person who should do a far more thorough job on the diagnosis front than anything possible online.

 

Don't take herbs without being prescribed by someone competent who can keep track of your development.

 

 

7 hours ago, awaken said:

There are many masters in Taiwan who teach without charge. These masters are not poor, on the contrary, they own a lot of real estate.

Some groups even have so much money that they buy land to store it.

When you are greedy for small money like students' tuition fees, do you think students can't see your greed?

Yeah I’m more concerned for people coming from monastic life and owning nothing - no assets, no career, no professional expertise to earn a living - and then relying on donation based teaching.

 

I’ve had friends doing this exact thing… and even though people do make donations, they often underestimate the costs of running a retreat - hiring halls, accommodation, insurance, food, the teacher’s and assistant’s transport costs etc… I’ve had monastic friends ending a retreat in serious debt… not to mention being left with no money for their own food and housing… 

 

8 hours ago, ASimpleLeaf said:

Is SOTG truly dead? 

I would say no

I had my doubts.
 

It’s the sort of thing used as a power play tactic by dubious gurus… and clearly he’s done it repeatedly in the past.

 

I’m glad this was an online cult - not a physical, in-person one… which could’ve been much much worse.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience and setting things straight for others.

 

I think you need a well deserved break from any spiritual/esoteric stuff for quite a while!  

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

For instance, in my own "spontaneous" practice I have certain habits of movement and I wonder if I'm falling into the groove of doing what I've done in the past rather than being truly spontaneous.

Probably an ingrained pattern that you’ve not been able to shift quite yet. Or may be a pattern that you’re reintroducing even after it’s shifted. Being concerned that it’s repetitive also adds a subtle conditioning 😅

 

Quote

Also, I tend to value certain experiences over others.  I think my practice is better, for instance, if there's lots of movement versus stillness.  This prejudice can lead me away from spontaneity.

It should actually lead to stillness… just be present with it and you’ll find that much like the tides - what appears still on the outside moves much more strongly on the inside.

 

The way I’ve been taught is that movements should eventually stop… then more subtle changes in the consciousness can take place of their own accord.

1 hour ago, Apech said:

What people seem to want to do is 'do vajrayana' as if it is stand alone set of practices.  You can't - it doesn't exist like that.  If someone tries to sell you this - they are conning you.

So would you say that Vajrayana is a monastic or at least ascetic tradition that can’t be fully mastered by a lay-life practitioner?

 

That was always my impression.