freeform

8 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

And don't worry Freeform, her being vampirised and left destitute simply won't happen. Firstly, she quite simply is that silly to be taken advantage of, and I slso believe what she has to offer doesn’t run dry.

 

I hope you’re right  

I’m sure it doesn’t run dry - but the body still needs nourishment, and rest and some sort of comfort too… as well as a break from teaching once in a while (which requires a surplus).

2 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

I love it. I can only sense some ones energetic level from a video after I've been doing a bit of FPCK and then gotten quite drunk.

Haha! That’s one way of doing it

 

Quote

I've decided to quit drinking for a short while because I was almost getting carried away with experimenting with my more sensitive qi levels in this state.

I’d suggest that if you’re able to do it intoxicated, you would surely be able to do it sober too.

 

It might take some more work - but you’ve got it in you… just need to find what adjustment intoxication gives you that makes it possible - then work to achieve the same thing, just without the intoxication

1 minute ago, Barnaby said:

I trust you don't have me in mind here 

 

That's absolutely not my attitude anyway...

Not at all - I recognise that you’re authentic and honourable.

 

What I mean is that as she comes out of a monastic setting - ‘normal’ people can be rather self-centered.
 

In Burma especially, charity, donation and taking care of those on the spiritual path is baked into the culture… I suspect almost every single adult donates money, time or food (or often all of those) to monasteries, monks, nuns and so on.

 

And that’s not the case in the west at all.

 

I’ve seen teachers get chewed up in this way. I hope she doesn’t as she seems rather genuine.

6 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I always wondered about this. There’s no way hundreds of people could all be faking their speaking in tongues or weird behaviour.

It appears all over the world in different guises.

 

It’s there in Bushman culture, in Norse cultures, in evangelical churches, in shamanism… it’s there in certain Muslim methods too.

 

All these ‘light language’ people doing their ‘speaking in tongues’ stuff - it’s all based around the same natural process…

 

It always appears differently depending on how you’re pre-conditioned. 
 

It’s a real thing. 
 

If it’s conditioned in a way that allows it to release mental, emotional, physical blockages and refine the flow of qi then it’s very beneficial… But it can (and is) subverted for all manner of other stuff too.

38 minutes ago, awaken said:

One of the main reasons why I responded to you today is that you seriously misled others.

You have your doubts, but you do not present your doubts as a question, but in a misleading way, and you will mislead others by doing so.

I didn’t ask you a question because I thought you had blocked me

 

I had no intention of starting a discussion with you. And I wasn’t even talking about you in the first place.

 

It might surprise you that you’re not the main character in other people’s awareness.

 

I simply quoted what you said to continue with the discussion with others here.

 

Quote

For example, you applied the wrong methods of other teachers to me without understanding what I said.

No I didn’t.
 

Read it again.

 

You wrote yourself into that story.

 

I simply reminded people that zifagong has potential issues. 
 

I didn’t say that how you teach has issues.

 

I just mentioned that people need to be careful and use discernment…

 

Thousands of teachers, gurus and masters use zifagong. You're not the only one.

 

You get very defensive and seem to react as if you’re always under attack by everyone.
 

I’m not attacking you, I’m not misrepresenting you. Please don’t be upset. I’m glad you’re sharing what you’re sharing - I’m not out to get you.
 

 

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

That's a good example of someone who's about as publicly uninterested in money as I've seen.  You probably remember at that point she laughed and said with clear distaste "I can't believe I'm one of those people with a website now!"

Yeah she totally gets the irony. It must be tricky going from monastic life (based in meditative practice no less) to lay life with all the issues and requirements of that.

 

Quote

Beth Upton is a real one.

Yeah - you can recognise that spark of Shen in her eyes.

 

I just hope those who are anti spending money on teachers don’t vampirise her gift and leave her destitute.

12 minutes ago, awaken said:

I didn't imply that rabbit marrow would happen, and again you're selectively ignoring the facts.
On the contrary, I said that rabbit marrow is difficult to produce.

I only used rabbit marrow as an example… I could use black liver as an example too.
 

Because you’ve talked about the black liver results to you students, that creates a subtle conditioning in the zifagong process…

 

I’m not saying this as a criticism… I don’t think it’s possible to have zero conditioning anyway.

 

By having practiced other methods (vipassana you’ve mentioned) - you have also subtly conditioned your own zifagong… by having read the various sutras and classics - same thing.

28 minutes ago, awaken said:

you must always be aware of whether there is self-suggestion

yes - you’re talking about non-contrivance. 
 

In general my concern is more to do with the teacher or the environment… for example, zifagong is practiced in some churches… it appears a little different - but it’s still the same thing… except in church people are told that it’s the Holy Spirit working through them.

 

Theres another group (they even post here in the forum sometimes) who use zifagong - but they tell their students that they’ve attached an immortal master to the student - and it’s the immortal master that’s directing their body and mind.

 

Some use zifagong and call it kundalini.

 

Some use zifagong and call it exorcising spirits.

 

Some teachers condition the spontaneous reactions by changing the quality of the qi (for example the various spontaneous five animal frolics).

 

Zifagong is very suggestible by the environment and by the teacher… just as you tell people to do their practice in an open field - just being in that environment conditions how the spontaneous movements arise.

 

non-contrivance as you teach it is the right way… but then you suggest certain experiences will happen (rabbit marrow etc)… this also subtly conditions the practice.

 

One of the teachers I learned zifagong from never even talked about it… people would ask and he’d just say ‘it’s normal’ or something like that… never said what to expect… 

23 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

'Eros, Ecstasy, & Elixirs’

All the most stimulating aspects of the path 😅

15 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Colour me cynical, but this podcast series comes over to me like a shop window for economic actors in the spiritual marketplace...

Gone are the days where you can get genuine teachings without some money changing hands at one point or another.

 

You might enjoy Beth Upton’s podcast on that channel… she’s also sceptical about money (and talks about it in one episode), became a nun and trained in Buddhist meditation at a respectable place with an attained teacher… she does mention her website, which might rub you up the wrong way, but teaches on a donation basis - so you could potentially learn for free (though would still have to pay to get to her).

1 minute ago, Apech said:

So glad we kept on topic.

Sorry - I almost never keep on-topic! My fault.

 

I’m still very interested in the answers people have for the question @Wilhelm posed:

Quote

I wonder what developments this will have for Varajyana in the West.  For the practitioners of the tradition - do these criticisms align with your own perception of the tradition as a whole?  Is this venture indeed necessary?

 

2 hours ago, awaken said:

Any exercise is fine, as long as it suits you the best, the question is how do you know what is the most suitable for you?

So there is something special about spontaneous power, it will develop the most suitable power state by itself, it may be rotation, it may be mudra, it may be samadhi, it may be the first stage of YangBirth, it may be black liver light, every moment developed freely.

 

任何功法都可以，只要適合自己的最好，問題是你怎麼知道什麼是最適合自己的呢？

所以自發功有這個特別之處，會自己發展最適合自己的功態，可能是旋轉，可能是手印，可能是三摩地，可能是陽生第一階段，可能是烏肝光，每一個當下都是自由發展出來的。

 

Just to reaffirm that zifagong can be rather suggestible…

 

Very prone to delusional thinking, imagination and so on… if someone tells you it’s angels working on you, you may well start to experience angels working on you… if someone tells you that it leads to seeing the light of your spirit - you may well start experiencing that.

 

Ive come across many schools that use zifagong heavily and many students think they’ve become enlightened or immortal… etc.

 

Its a fantastic method, but worth knowing the pitfalls and limitations of it.

 

PS - this isn’t directed at Awaken, because I’m pretty sure she can’t read my messages (she blocked me ) - it’s directed at other people interested in spontaneous qigong or zifagong.

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

a mundane skill

Generating mastery and skill is at the centre of all Daoist methods. That’s why everything is developed to the level of Gong… from how you drink tea, to how you play music, to your painting and to your Gong Fu, Qi Gong, Shen Gong and so on…

 

Only at the stage of mastery of skill can you fully release any contrivance… only then can wei wu wei arise…

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Oops, you did that again! Believing that  learning the Dao is the same as learning  a mundane skill is the foremost trap for a practicer. Once he falls into it he will only dig himself deeper. In fact learning the Dao is a complete, 180 degree opposite of learning a skill. Daodejing  48 says so.

You did it too… “learning the Dao”… I guess learning is quite a bit easier though.

You've also made the mistake (a mistake from my POV) that 48 is talking about an accumulation of information - rather than an accumulation of self…

 

in the past, with great certainty, you’ve also made the mistake (my POV again) that DDJ is an instruction manual for governing the people… a mistake so grave that (for me, at least) it calls into question anything else you have to say about the DDJ at all. 🤷‍♂️

 

44 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

With the secret codes, those books are used for verification of the practices as the one knows what are inside of these teachings, what are incorrectly said, what are missing.

Yup - practice unlocks the meaning within texts… the texts verify results from the practice.

 

Quote

Those who are dumb, muddle, single minded, obedient, with perseverance are usually the best students.   They have a clear mind, not distracted by desires and too much thinking (whether positive or negative thinkings, whether useful or daydreaming).

Well I’m not sure that’s necessarily true… sometimes things like ‘sitting and forgetting’ are misunderstood.

 

Most of the high level teachers I’ve come across have been very smart and successful in a variety of endeavours.

 

My teacher is fluent in 4 languages - and able to get by with several others… mostly picked up from his students and patients.
 

Other advanced teachers I’ve met have been very successful professionals in their early life. One became a professor of electrical engineering at a young age, and ran an incredibly successful international business… then gave it all up to cultivate.

 

The slow, dim, muddled ones - I’ve never come across any like that that have made much progress… I mean I’ve come across a couple of ‘crazy’ ones that crack weird ‘jokes’ mixed with perplexing but wise sounding sayings - and people assume they’re in some kind of high level, crazy wisdom, wu wei state - but to me it all appeared a bit contrived… an act - a kind of lifestyle more than genuine spiritual growth.

18 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh i am biased against any skill. any skill is a dead end. thats what the classical text says 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_longa,_vita_brevis

a skill is a literal dead end

 

And yet you used your reading and comprehension skills to figure that out.

Funny that when you click on the “Interpretation” tab, it’s interpreted quite differently to your personal interpretation…

 

And that leads us nicely back to the point at hand - the fallibility of using texts as your main source of cultivation instruction.

 

7 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

hmm so cultivation is very much like learning a mundane skill. and not just any skill. its like learning a competitive televised sport. with a partner a judge and spectators. interesting;)

Nope - it’s more like learning a nuanced skill that employs both mind and body - and has a correct outcome and an incorrect outcome.

 

I guess that as you read what I wrote you’ve got the ability to pick and choose whichever meaning is more conducive to support your existing views…

 

You didn’t pick rackets or balls for some reason… and you didn’t pick the ‘nuances skill’ aspect either…

 

I wonder whether this bias might play into your understanding of classical texts too  

A hammer is useful coz it’s hard and heavy enough to hit a nail into some wood… but for that very reason it could also damage you badly if you’re not competent at operating it (or are competent, but make a one-off error).

 

If you encased the hammer in an inflatable pillow it would certainly be safer… but you couldn’t use it for much.

 

Then there are hammers with splinter causing handles… or the head is loose - so when you swing it the head flies off towards your own (much more soft and brittle) head…

 

Then there’s a good hammer, and a competent hammer operator that does everything right - but still gets blisters from her hard hammer work.

 

Different sideffects for different reasons. It’s worth working out what caused yours… though it’s never that easy or conclusive to ascertain.

31 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

 

Sorry @freeform, if it is true he's recently passed, then it might be more sensitive to wait a little longer before you critize him directly.

 

You’re right of course.
 

I have no criticism of him as a person - whether he has passed or not.

I’ve only ever seen videos and writings - those I’m critical of, yes - but I’m also aware that he may have been a wonderful son, brother, or father - a good friend and someone that has benefited the world and contributed to others in many other beneficial ways. 

 

If he has passed then I wholeheartedly wish him smooth and speedy passage onto whatever is next. 🙏🏼

On 14/01/2023 at 6:17 PM, MIchael80 said:

How to start? 

Zi fa gong can be started off in many different ways - each tradition will have its own way.

 

Most often, in my experience, it’s started off by a teacher emitting qi… but it can be started off by yourself too.

 

Zi fa gong should, imo, be done with supervision - or at least with someone you can talk to who’s gone through the process themselves - and have led others through it too.

 

It’s very powerful and useful - but as with anything powerful, there’s stuff that can go wrong.

 

So a good teacher that uses this approach is definitely recommended…

 

There are many bad teachers that subvert this process though (and it’s very easy to subvert as your energy body opens up and becomes pretty ‘suggestible’)…

 

5 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

And of course there's now also the modern-day equivalent of books to contend with: the YouTube video. 

Yup.

 

There’s this infamous guy who called himself SonOfTheGods or something like that… (apparently died recently, rest in peace, if that’s true)…

 

But he used to post videos of himself meditating and using really cheap aftereffects stuff to create various magical phenomena…

 

Theres one of him levitating… there’s one of him with some kind of fireball… he also had the habit of putting an incense stick under the camera so that as the smoke passed by the camera lens it created ‘magical orbs’…

 

3 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

I'm not a scholar and in fact I have thoroughly exhausted all desire to engage in historical debate, so I'm sure I don't live up to scholarly standards. I have read a scholarly book some years ago I think it was called Origins of Yoga and Tantra, it makes similar points that I do, traces the origins with a historians mind - though usually concludes with 'well it's really hard to know when from the historical record' - if you really want something to add to your reading list. I admit I could not be bothered to read something like that again!

The issue is (as you’ve stated already) that these arts - whether Buddhist, Daoist or Hindu, are primarily oral traditions passed down through apprenticeship. Through master - disciple relationships.

 

Texts in these traditions are very much tertiary. They certainly play a role - but a minor one compared to what’s passed on through direct oral (and energetic) transmission.

 

So using texts - although amazingly convenient - will not get you much at all. It won’t tell you about the practices much… it won’t give you very accurate historical data… it won’t tell you what’s passed down through the direct apprenticeship.

 

Oh but it’s so convenient - you can hold texts up as ‘facts’… you can refer to them… you can analyse… you can compare and contrast… you can collect way more than you know what to do with… and all from the comfort of your armchair.

 

But it’s not cultivation. Reading a book, even ALL THE BOOKS, about tennis will not make you anywhere near the level of even a competent beginner who’s been trained by a coach.

 

I think it’s grand to be able to read all this stuff and talk about it.

 

But thinking that it reveals everything about the tradition is just so naive.

 

It surprises me that people fall into this trap…

 

(but it is just so convenient though!)

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

There is totally opposite view in academia.

Quote

haha talks ‘academia’… then posts a Wikipedia quote 🙈

 

It’s not the first time too…

 

Its like if Chi Dragon discovered western internet 😬

12 minutes ago, steve said:

How do linguists deal with English words like

What’s of more concern to me is how linguists deal with cultivation…

 

It appears the answer is ‘through linguistics’…

 

Which is a little troubling 

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

So we switch from one illusion to another? Why?  

I only answer real questions