Tommy

That seems to be a wonderful state. Once when I first started to do meditation more seriously, I had an experience where thoughts stopped. It felt so weird at the time. Never expected something like this. So, I forced myself to return to thinking state because it felt more like me. Now, years after, I have found that,... that quiet has a draw. When with thoughts, I find there is a sense of me. When there is quiet, the sense of me expands to an alert awareness. Motivation to act comes from my thoughts. But the sense of awareness comes from the quiet. Probably doesn't make much sense. But, that is how I have experienced it.

I am surprised you agreed at all. But, there almost always seems to be a exception to the rule especially when it comes to generalities.

I do not believe it was the great mystics or sages that brought about laws which society abides by. Rather it was the rulers of the realm which created the laws. They defined the offenses and the punishment. And also provide the organization by which the laws was dispensed. Divinely inspired thinkers did not create civilization. The first recorded civilization were the Sumerians and the first recorded laws were the Code of Ur-Nammu in the Sumerian city of Ur. Civilization believed to come about thru people living together in close proximity. Laws came about as the ruler of the realm needed to keep order in the land. In the words of Mel Brooks, "It is good to be the king." Or better known as Might makes right. Free will was thought to be brought about by Eve and Adam eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Having knowledge of good and evil gave a person choice. The ability to choose their actions. There is the law of man and there is the law of the divine. Each overlaps the other. So far, I do not agree with your premise. Can you expand on your thoughts about this so as to present a more solid argument??

Wait, ... you go back in time? (can you really time travel?) And step into the dream again and do experiments to test your hypotheses? Sometimes you do that with a friend watching the scene IN the dream? That is one heck of a friend to be able to watch the scene in your dream. Sorry, just about everything you said in that posts makes me wonder why I can't go back in time and have my friend watch me in my dreams. What is wrong with me?? Sterling said, "But when you finally woke up you would dismiss them outright." So time travel to the past isn't possible?? LOL

Sometimes it takes a stranger to point out something is wrong. It just takes a bigger/humble person to be able to accept good advice.

Sounds like stuff that myths and legends are made from. "Thousands of years of work that protective beings have done". If I was writing a novel then I would like to use that. Would you mind? There is no doubt that "there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy". "most orthodox shrinks know nothing of the other side". Thumbs up. Sterling said, "Demons and voices are "makyo" Thanks for the reminder.

Yeah, but they must have been quite frightening while it was happening??? And that still doesn't answer my question of whether it was an outside force or the mind preventing you from moving forward???? Sorry, just not looking forward to having demons and voices in my head.

How do you sit in silence or quiet when there are demons and voices? Are these outside forces? Or is it the mind fighting to not let go? For me, I have not experienced demons or voices other than my own which presents memories of the past which make me want to jump out of my seat. But, remaining with the alertness and sitting quietly, eventually the mind quiets and less and less thoughts arise. IDK. I hear of some people who have experiences of lights and colors while sitting in meditation. Personally have not had that experience. Don't know if I am doing this wrong or not. Or maybe just too early??? Not looking forward to demons and voices.

What you said does make sense. There is a sense of me in my sitting of what I had hoped was quiet. The sense of me comes with passing thoughts. When they are let go, there is a sense of presence or awareness. I am alert and I am here. Sometimes that disappears. Not that I am lost in thought but that I just lose awareness of the moment. Then the thoughts return and the sense of me appears again. When it does then I can return to being alert. Aware. Sometimes it feels like a snake chasing its tail.

God is invisible? Is love visible? I do not see love as being visible but I do see the effects of love. Hugs, kisses, gifts and happiness. So, maybe God is invisible?? But maybe, the effects of God is visible if one knows what to look for?? Is boredom a justification for mischief? Or is that just a human explanation of events?

Two men visit an abbot at a monastery at different times. The first man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was it like in your old town?” The first man responded, “It was terrible. Everyone was full of hate. I did not like it there.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I do not think you should move here.” The first man left and the second man came in. The second man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was your old town like?” The second man responded, “It was wonderful. Everyone was nice and friendly. I was happy. Now, I just wanted a change of scenery.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I think you will like it here.”

I have always found that the Zen stories hold more than one point. In ancient times, it was normal for a traveling monk to seek lodging at a Zen monastery. But had to engage in dharma combat with the abbot or disciple. If the monk won the debate, he could stay. If the monk loss, then he had to go elsewhere. The Abbot asked his disciple to engage with a traveling monk, who challenged him to a silent debate. It so happened that this disciple had an accident as a child and had only one eye. The travelling monk returned to the abbot, saying, “Your man is too good for me. I must go journey on. I held up one finger to symbolize the Buddha. But he held up two fingers for the Buddha and the Dharma. So I held up three fingers for the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. But then he held up a clenched fist to indicate they were all one – so I ran to indicate I am no match for him.” After the monk who spoke these words, he left. The disciple arrived and was very angry. “Where is that monk?” he demanded. “He insulted me by holding up one finger to indicate I had only one eye. Determined to be polite, I held up two fingers to indicate that, he was blessed with two eyes. But, he held up three fingers to indicate that all together there were only three eyes among us. So I wanted to hit him with my fist but he ran off.”

The story also points out that wisdom without compassion is meaningless. As the monk does realize the daughter is there not because of some great emotional connection. But, he misses the point of her being there at all. And thus, having realized the monk has not learned this, the old woman burnt the hermitage down which also shows that wisdom without compassion is not complete. True, words on paper do not always convey the true tone of the words. However, from what I have read of your posts, I do realize that you do have much more knowledge of these matters and also have given them much more thought than I have. So, I have no wish to argue a pointless point and just leave it to opinion.

Well there is that poster that says, ... The person says, "I want happiness" The poster says to get rid of the "I" because that is ego Then goes on to say that "want" is desire and to get rid of that Then all that is left is "happiness". Lol.

I am sorry. I disagree with this "Buddha only taught two things." When you live with a person and follow them around, you learn their manner and their wisdom and their compassion. The Buddha might have only spoken about Dukka but much more was passed on than just words. The Dharma is not just about Dukka. Well, that is just my opinion. And, I accept that I am probably wrong. So no argument. I will bow to your wisdom and live the way I see fit. With respect to the story, everyone has their own opinion. The monk has his. The daughter has hers. The old woman certainly has hers. Not everyone agrees. And so I have mine. Apologies.