Keith108

Haha! I have actually never heard anyone check the old woman's behavior. I guess I am used to looking at "the point" of the story when reading zen tales. One of the checking questions in the kong an (koan) addresses the what the old woman attained when she heard about the monks response. Anyway, I appreciate the kind words, and the conversation. _/|\_

Hi Tommy, No need to apologize for disagreeing! That's a nice feature of Buddhism. It is (except for Pure Land) a "self-power" religion. It's up to you to take on board what is useful, and reject what isn't. A teacher helps to keep things going in the right direction. My take is all of Buddhism is an expedient means to point us to a shift that can only be experienced. Originally, there is no dukkha, no end of dukkha. But, it is pretty easy to track down quotes from the Buddha where he says words to the effect of "I teach dukkha, and the end of dukkha." Of course, those quotes weren't actually written down in the Pali Suttas until over 400 years after his death, so who knows? And, there is some debate about the exact way to translate it. But, the gist is there. Regarding opinions, be careful. They are one of the main ways the idea of a self is reified. The story simply cautions us not to become dead, unfeeling robots, like the monk did. This a major misunderstanding, especially from the Mahayana perspective. It's not a matter of simple opinion. Also, I would just like to point out that for me, online conversations are just "shooting the bull" kind of conversations. I suspect I come across as some kind of Buddhist know-it-all. There is no tone of voice, body language, etc., to our conversations here. Just words on a screen, and we as readers are left to fill in the tone, etc. It's a very poor substitute for in-person conversations. _/|\_ Keith

Since this was posted in the Buddhist sub, here is a Zen story for this kind of condition, which ZM Seung Sahn turned into a kong an (koan): The Buddha only taught two things: Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. Dukkha is the dissatisfaction of not getting enough of the things we want, and too much of the things we don't. Getting one's emotions under control is good, but another step is needed. As Oldbob mentioned, desire can be a useful energy. In Zen terms, the desire to wake up our to our true selves keeps us on the path. And then, when we see that, we help others to do the same. To me, that is the ultimate teaching of the Buddha's enlightenment. He didn't just sit there with the knowledge of his true self. He shared it with the world. _/|\_ Keith

This will probably make you cranky, but maybe it will make sense to someone else reading the thread. Forgiveness is a giving act. And when we give, we should forget two things: "I" and "Give". _/|\_

The moon's gaze, obscured The clouds coming and going Life, Death, is like that

Pat's friday burnt ends Round and round, eating, shitting Cold morning, train horn

Ah well, the thread has been contributed to. My work here is finished.

That's a projection. There was no demeaning intent. By "cherry picking" I meant taking a short teaching out of a much greater context. I honestly don't what the second half of the statement is referring to.

Cherry picking teaching words will lead to misunderstandings like this. The context of that type of talk is that before identification with a "self" there is no good or bad, right or wrong, etc. That is the basic teaching of shunyata. If someone has digested that teaching, then "everything is perfect". Actually, there is another saying that says "each thing is complete", which I think works a little better. As Stirling said, this is an experiential view, not a philosophical one. It takes a degree of openness, and also a willingness to put down our cherished beliefs, ideas, and opinions, to digest this. Fixed attitudes just solidify the "I, me, mine" viewpoint, and dukkha (suffering) rolls on both for ourselves and those we come in contact with. No one in their right mind would say the world is perfect from a mundane point of view. In fact, in terms of human behavior, it's the exact opposite. That's samsara. Now we find ourselves back in "two truths" territory, as we discussed in a different thread. With the wisdom of waking up to our true self, we can help ourselves and others. Interestingly, there is a Christian parallel to this in the story of Adam and Eve. They fall from heaven after eating an apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Maybe someone more versed in biblical Christianity can correct me on that, or provide some context. I just found it interesting that the fall from heaven was caused by a tree named after dualistic thinking. I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to pull out a few quotes from the DDJ to point in the direction what "everything is perfect" is talking about, as well. Of course, without having the context of the words, "everything is perfect" can be a form of spiritual bypassing. Sort of like "God has a plan". That's my two cents, anyway.

Not hot nor cold Cold kills, hot kills, what to do? The leaves have fallen

Yes, you both have stated the gist of it. When some people read the Heart Sutra, they think it is nihilistic. Here is a snippet: "Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they do not appear or disappear, are not tainted or pure, do not increase or decrease. Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realm of eyes and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness." You can see why someone might conclude that. But, the Heart Sutra points out original emptiness (shunyatta). It's half of the equation. If we pair the view of the Heart Sutra, with everyday action, then we can act in a way doesn't cause suffering for ourselves and others.

Here is poem about the thing that never changes: From here.

This reminds of the "two truths" model of looking at the world. Ultimately, there is no enlightenment/nothing to do. And yet, from a mundane viewpoint, practice is necessary. A shift away from self - reference (kensho) is necessary. Digesting the experience is necessary. In other words, stages. But to think of it terms of stages reifies the self view. So, we just practice and see what happens! The best words I have ever read on the subject can be found here: Bassui's Talk on One Mind. _/|\_ Keith

Probably half of Zen, or thereabouts. The Linji/Korean Seon/Rinzai instruction is to investigate the hwadu (word - head). In the Korean tradition, we raise the question "what am I?". This strong self inquiry serves to do the same thing - exhaust the discursive mind, and cause a shift of view. _/|\_ Keith

This seems useful for this thread. We search for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, not realizing we are holding on to it already.