Dev

31 minutes ago, freeform said:

The shaking is normal, yes - it’s expected - especially as you’ve only done 5 sessions. (Remember that it takes effectively thousands of hours of wuji standing to get it ‘right’ - and even then there are always refinements). As you actively release more and the deeper muscles get used to the standing, things will change.

Damo lists 8 experiences/sensations, one of which is 'diao', which is defined as shaking as a result of the movement of the more yang forms of chi. Is this shaking equivalent to that?

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Ask your instructor or specify that it's for someone who specifically practices from Damo.

 

In our own system, no, this is not good, and while it's usually a sign of opening channels in the beginning, you should eventually strive for complete stillness. 

Still busy processing payment, not able to contact them properly yet. But you're right, I'm going to edit it to include damo. And this is only my 5th or so time doing wuji

Edit: I will definitely ask damo asap, just making sure I'm not doing something horribly wrong in the meantime

Today when I was practicing wuji, I started shaking, like a lot. I noticed that today I managed to drop my pelvis and tailbone much more effectively than before, I could really feel it 'sinking' into my body. Also managed to use my kua much much more effectively today, could feel it in the exact areas that damo described. Is the shaking a good/bad sign? I've heard people  mentioning it before. It was a very interesting feeling, like spontaneous energy arising in different places. The more in-position i was, the more i shook (e.g shook way harder when sinking pelvis and tailbone)

Edit: I'm referring specifically to Damos system here

On 10/09/2021 at 7:47 PM, freeform said:

The issues tend to come about when there's additional 'power'. Whether it's internal power (extra Qi) or external power (money, fame, social status) - this extra power has the potential to fuel those aspects of ourselves that have remained dormant whilst we didn't have the extra power.

I feel that's the reason that one should do shadow work while/before practicing neigong and other similar practices. I get the feeling that relying on clearing your energy systems and building qi to clear your mental blockages and insecurities won't really work too well, or is unreliable. Ya gotta focus on both sides of the coin. That's more or less why I wanted to do a cleansing and shadow work journey before i even properly get into neigong, so that I know exactly how my insecurities manifest etc. Also glad that I already kind of built a foundation around various other spiritual/shamanic practices that focus on shadow work, integration, introspection and reaching inner peace before learning about neigong

40 minutes ago, refugeindharma said:

Wai = External / Exterior / Outside

Gong = quality or skill

 

So Wai Gong (external gong) as quoted refers in this context to building things on the outside... so muscle, tendons, bones etc, and also working on external qualities that one could easily see.. speed, strength, muscle definition etc.

 

Nei Gong (internal art/skill) / Nei Dan (internal alchemy) on the other hand works from the inside to the out, hence being considered an internal art or skill.. Simplified, generally they work from the level of Qi, Qi channels, huang/sinew channels, to tendons, then muscles and then branches out to the most external aspects of the body. 

 

So in general, Wai Gong in this context can be considered as working at transforming the more dense aspects and levels of the body (think Asian martial arts, kung fu, karate, muay thai etc or in a western context, bodybuilding), and the nei gong/dan works from the internal and more subtle aspects of the body and aims to transform things at this deeper level, which then branches out to the external/exterior aspects of the body

 

Different people have different definitions for each of these terms though

Ahh thanks, that was very helpful

On 10/09/2021 at 2:27 PM, Master Logray said:

 

OK, theory and history for scholar.  China martial arts, just like any others, train the muscle, bones, tendons, speed, strength, flexibility, skills...   They are all externally visible - so the term Wai Gong (external gong). 

 

In the arm race, martial artists need to further their arsenals, like shields for weak spots in the body, ability to move the shields, how to jump/levitate a long or high distance,  how to heal fast, how to use your force without being sensed, how to prevent the organs from concussions.....   These are generally termed Nei Gong (the inner gong) because they are not really externally conspicuous, involve the inner body and often trained in secret.   They come from a variety of techniques, medicines and secrets.   To quote an example, hanging a rock under the testicles is a famous technique demonstrating the potency of Nei Gong.

 

Nei Gong by definition doesn't necessary related to Chi.  But somehow most of the techniques involves Chi to varying extents.  This brings Neigong close to its Taoist brothers - the Neidan and even TCM.  Some Neigong exercises can be used for Neidan, many masters know both and integrate them together.   Neidanists also practise Waigong and Neigong as personal security system. 

 

For those like philosophical Taoism, WaiGong is more Yang and Neigong is more Yin, outer and inner.

 

Since Neigong has it martial arts roots, it is not Neidan.  e.g. by sending or activating Chi to the belly, the punch of the enemy can be stopped or even bounced back.  It has to be done in an instant.  While Neidan prefers slowness, and let the Chi flow naturally, non-intervention.   Overall speaking,  a Neidanist is not supposed to be involved in a fighting situation in the first place and habitually thinking of attack and defence in the deep meditation is to be avoided.  

 

Nowadays, both are lumped under Chi Kung from 1950s onward. 

 

Very interesting, thanks for the insight  I've heard the term waigong being thrown around a bit, but its definition seems to have gone over my head? What exactly is it, and how does it differ from neigong?

13 hours ago, freeform said:

When dealing with people, you become that person - you experience their full personality and karma all at once… the separation between what is you and what is not you disappears

I can relate to this... A couple years ago I was on mescaline at a festival, and I became so insanely connected to my surroundings that I had to be alone for hours. Every time a person came near me I would become them, I'd be thinking their thoughts, feeling their emotions. I would get completely absorbed into them and their karma. It was really difficult, I couldn't be around my friends or anyone, just had to hermit out for a bit until I wasn't tripping as hard. I can imagine if it was like that but x100, it would be seriously hard to live in society with so many people

Edit: What made it even harder was that i could see what everyone was struggling with, I was thinking their thoughts, feeling their conflicts (especially other people having difficulties in their trips) I wanted to help them to resolve their karma, to show them what they were doing and thinking that was generating karma but I couldn't - they wouldn't understand, and I couldn't speak

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Ling

What exactly is ling?

On 08/09/2021 at 5:08 PM, Master Logray said:

I think unless one is a scholar doing study, it is better for the usual people to concentrate on actual practice than spending time on which is which.

Yeah that's probably a good point. I just find it fascinating though, and want to expand my knowledge, while focusing on practice from a single tradition. I like hearing what different people have to say, I am a scholar (I do take religious studies just not as a major), so I do still take what people say with a pinch of salt (freeform and various others encouraged me to do that as well). Mostly I'm just interested in the theory behind it as a side project for interest's sake. I like researching and learning stuff  

3 hours ago, freeform said:

People love their pets - and don’t get ridiculed by them when they start pointing sword fingers at them  

 

Yeah it’s weird - but to be honest few people can move enough Qi at that stage to do much (of benefit or of harm).

I’m sure just having an action they can take that shows love for their pet already has some benefits - but nothing to do with Qi emission.

 

Strangely Reiki is different, because as a method it does generally allow people to emit some Qi pretty much straight away - and with that, there’s a bit of danger involved.

So if you have a lot of chi (likie someone who's a relatively high level) and try reiki on someone would you like accidentally faqi and fry them or something?

@freeform What exactly is the definition of a chakra according to daoist nei gong/dan? I haven't heard people using the term much, but i remember reading that in lvl 72 of mo pai 'all 72 chakras are open'? (Yes, i know the info about mo pai is mostly bullshit, you guys have made sure to make me aware of that, thats why I'm asking)

14 hours ago, freeform said:

The answer is ‘yes sort of - but not quite’.

 

In the beginning you’re getting the physical structure right… that in itself takes a while.

 

once the structure is right (your body is in the right structural position for now) - you begin to apply internal principles - finding the Dantien, sinking the Qi, activating the Dantien and so on.

 

The Qi will condense at the LDT and activate and begin to mobilise through the body and mind (often erratically at first and then smoothly and more powerfully once the channels start opening and mind starts to get quiet).

 

At this stage you’ll usually have enough Qi to begin shaping the tissues and building the container. There are various methods for this using mudras, sound, breathing and other things - often under the umbrella term Dantien gong.

 

The structure and the physical principles, the weight over the front of the food, the interaction of the yin field and so on set up the conditions for the other things to develop.

 

One thing is built on the other. Kinda how a building is put together.

 

Thats why it’s important to follow one system rather than integrating all sorts of principles from different systems - even if they sound complementary.

 

 

So is neigong opening the channels, building the container, accumulating chi and circulating/concentrating the chi, and nei dan the alchemy that comes after this,, refining/combining chi and converting it into different forms?

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

That’s probably referring to me?

 

Of course nuance in what I say often gets lost when processed by some minds… @Cleansox got my POV about right though.

 

Everyone has a ‘field’ at the area of the lower Dantien. 

 

You can consolidate Qi in that field. Young children naturally have Qi consolidated there - which gets dispersed by the teenage years… but it can be restored through qigong training or even transmission from a teacher.

 

In most alchemical systems you then go further than this and ‘build’ a ‘container’ - an energetic (and even somewhat physical) vessel for further consolidating and concentrating Qi to a much greater extent - as well as generating and ‘cooking’ various alchemical ‘substances’ there.

 

Not all traditions have this. I’ve come across both. In my experience, the traditions that don’t tend to build a Dantien aren’t concerned with alchemy or anything like that - they’re generally health focused or sometimes martial arts focused systems.

And this container is 'built' partly through induction of the earth's yin field, which we need a correct wuji pose to be able to conduct through us - hence importance of opening yong quan? Also through aligning our centre of gravity with our dantien, because gravity is a yin field? And through attention/awareness of the dantien with our mind, because the mind is also essentially yin? Is that correct?

So is the 'container' itself made of yin, and the stuff we 'store inside' it yang?

49 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

It's up regulary here. 

 

The difference between having a field and an energy container that can accumulate (whatever), sometimes dan, sometimes true qi, and so on. 

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the definition of 'dan'? 

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah - and it takes a long time to open. Incremental progression over the long term is the name of the game… and just when you start getting the structure right your Zifa gong will kick in and you'll have to deal with that craziness for a while 

Is that the shakes?

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah exactly - with these things it’s not the case that principles and refinements from one art will benefit another.

 

Nothing wrong with doing internal martial arts along with the Neigong though - just best to keep the principles distinct and separate.

Yeah I feel that I'm not confident enough with my knowledge to be able to learn 2 different systems at the moment, I'm still at the point of accidentally making up chinese words

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

This is usually the biggest thing to work on extensively in the beginning. It’s also very nuanced and you’ll discover there are many levels of opening in the kwa as you develop over the years.

Yeah to be honest I'm still trying to figure out in terms of flexing and contracting and sensation exactly what it is

3 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Well, I did take it from him   Just keep practicing, keep trying, developing, I'm sure you'll find it. I also realized it was an error when I noticed the same thing, that it was almost as if my heels were lifting off the ground.

Ahh, there we go Thanks for the insight, appreciate it. I'll get on it

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

Just to reiterate - if he says to put your weight in the front - then that’s what you should be doing. It’s a key principle in several systems that activate the Dantien extensively.

 

Don’t adjust to minimise discomfort - the discomfort is a sign that the body is changing. You’ll need to make friends with discomfort for a couple of years. It becomes kind of pleasant actually - like the discomfort of a good workout.
 

Don’t adjust instructions to fit anyone else’s system or understanding. If you’re doing different practices from different systems, keep them completely separate.

Okay, I'll take your advice. Piyadasi mentioned its probably to do with my kua, so I'll focus on developing that a bit, and keep my weight on the front of my feet. And I can imagine - I used to hate being hungry, now I actually really enjoy the sensation in my stomach, and just being light and not bloated 

22 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

There is a way to have the weight pressurize the front of the feet without you falling forward, it has to do with the manipulation of the kua/pelvis region. I have noticed this error in my practice as well, leaning forward in a way that was not helpful, almost doing a “calf raise” as you say, then found that putting the weight forward was not the issue, but the how of doing it was.

That sounds like something Damo would say. He did mention that the kua is fundamental, and often the source of problems in posture. I'm still familiarising myself with the kua, so I'll play around a bit and see if i can grasp what you're talking about. Thanks for the advice

53 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is possible to do just as well by balancing the weight between the heels and the balls of the feet. I've seen various versions of this kind of instruction -- "spread the tarsal bones wider, apply more weight/pressure on the K1 point, treat the big toe, K1 point and the center of the heel as 3 nails you've dug into the earth and so on". 

FWIW, in my experience (and I've been doing this for more than 20 years now) -- the best way to stand in wuji is when you are neither falling forward nor backward -- and your weight simply falls through to the ground. The more important thing to watch out for in wuji stance is really about suspending the crown point, tucking the chin slightly,  leaning the torso slightly forward,  and letting the chest muscles sink downward. Another thing is to not let your toes splay out -- keep the toes perpendicular to each other or even better, slightly splayed inward. 

I'll play around, and see if I can keep my tarsal bones spread to the same degree while distributing my weight a little better. If I can do it that way without forcing them to spread, then why not i suppose

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The discomfort is normal, and your weight should be as you stated, towards the front....in or around a 2:1 ratio of front to back to open yongchuan

Okay that's good to hear  

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Heres a tip....Purchase a month long membership to the academy...

 

Take EXTENSIVE notes and practice that for a while if you are tight on money....

 

You needn't worry about the neigong for now. You'll have plenty to keep you busy for a while

 

I strongly suggest you take my advice ….there's nuances you wont pick up in the book that will save you endless hours and incorrect alignments. Nobody should ever try to learn from a book...they should only use it to supplement

Now that's a good idea! I didn't think of that. I just wish the monthly membership had full access to their library. And yeah I'd much rather learn from videos and lessons as opposed to a book, but at least in the meantime I've made a neigong workbook, and have been carefully reading Damos book, making notes on everything

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Just think about it, if you’re perched up on the balls of your feet for long periods of time (like a ballerina), you essentially are holding a “calf raise”. Why won’t your calf muscles not “burn/sting” or even cramp? 

I read a little more into it today (from Damo), and i think that i might have had my weight a tiny bit too far forward, because one's heels should not be lifting off the ground (mine weren't, but were about to). Gonna try it slightly further back today, still on frontal part and see if my calves hold up better.

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

A good rule of thumb for any teacher: 

 

"By the fruits, ye shall be known." 

 

Observe his students versus what he claims he imparts. Do this for any teacher you encounter and their students. 

 

More importantly, see if they're having fun, are healthy, joyful, and supportive.

 

This should help you before narrowing down the inevitable discussion for and against Damo specifically. 

Great tip, thanks  

I was advised to be skeptical of fluff and Damo adding his own things into his practices, but I've also been told that he knows what he's talking about. I'd like to hear any anecdotal experiences about Damos academy/books/resources, whether you found it to be good, if you hit any glass ceilings with his methods, if he's credible, reliable, and as knowledgeable as he seems. How accurate is the theory that he presents in his books? Or if you are knowledgeable of neigong theory, whats your opinion on his work and information? Which parts of his theory are credible, which parts aren't? Any and all anecdotes and opinions are appreciated