S:C

12 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

confused about the differences between dispersal & leakage

follow up question on this... maybe it's just my lacking language skills. 

 

I've read that according to TCM (?) for example ginseng will "disperse" the Qi.

It doesn't feel like "leakage" though, if I take it (alright in a combination with other supplements, maybe then it's "overwritten"

by the others)

Leakage, sounds to me like it just drops out gravity like as soon the critical point is reached. Disperse sounds to me like its heat that gives some of it away to the surroundings. 

Is that correct? I've looked it up in dictionary but cannot grasp the difference somehow. 

 

Is disperse then only used when people are consolidating / cultivating Jung? 🧐 (I guess not!? So cultivators do no more have loss of Jing?!)

So it's a bad thing to 'disperse' (e.g. via Ginseng) if you have a momentarily lack of Jing? How would one know, simply observing ones wishes for "exciting activities"?

 

and before I forget, I always get confused when people talk about Jing/Qi/Shen... are they talking about the status of a non cultivator or that of one who reached the change from acquired to congenital (xiantien, houtien etc.)?

 

Because when people talk about Qi, does it mean, they have consolidated Jing to Qi? Or are they talking about what everyone, including non cultivators have? Is that a one time milestone or a ongoing challenge? 

I wouldn't dare to!

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/19/world/magnetic-fields-earth-intl-scli-scn/index.html

maybe some interesting 42.000 year old worldwide weather report news (called the Adams Event ), pole is shifting a bit even now while you're reading.

 

On 21.3.2022 at 3:49 PM, Mark Foote said:

experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

in fainting too? 

quite interesting, thanks.

 

is there a medical explanation for this phenomenon? why does this happen and what for?

 

edit: no disrespect, just curiosity.

 

addendum:

just before signing up here, I had read a story here in the forum about a 18 year old (edit: young 25 years old) woman (just after finishing school graduation) who went to a retreat for several days, which was not monitored very well, there was only video instructions and they weren't allowed to talk. (forgot the name of the group, some male master via old video, seemingly lots of people.)

 

she mentioned getting in _ some _ that clear light state, but no one took her seriously or could help her. (staff denied her asking for answers, parents sent her to the clinic and she got meds, but somehow still managed to throw herself of a bridge twice... as she didn't properly ended her life the first time - she thought what she experienced was death, and she should have died that time and something must have gone wrong - in her opinion - , so she wanted to 'fulfill' the experience or like... ) and no one had any idea what was going on. but the retreat seemed to have worked just too well for her. (better than she could handle. stated some members here. - probably another thread yet.)

 

search engine seems to have lost it for me, - there even was a newspaper article, (but I remember @Nungali posted his 'mystical waterfall story' just below... still couldn't find it.) so this seems to happen occasionally, thus my asking about it.

anyone who remembers this thread? 

what happened?

 

Edit II:

found the thread again... Goenka retreat it was. Thanks, @Mark Foote

it doesn't mention if she saw "the" clear light, (- must have been speculation on my part here) AND it only has  a pretty picture of a waterfall posted by @Limahong not the waterfall story I mentioned up (probably read those parallel and made a connection.)

 

 

Edit III:

about this, I had the thought, - even if heretic - that it might be symbolism, - sun and moon often stand for polar energies quite intense ones, - water, earth and air (metal and or wood) often stand for something else in this context, depending on the origins (indian, daoist, western) of the text.

like e.g. the story of Jesus and Pete when they were walking on the waters, it might be also seen 'merely' symbolic, depending on the context and perspective you take (belief in contrast to 'strange emotions and/or doubt', - like that story with the four people who had the same divine experience, and the only one who didn't went mad was the one who went home praising God and doing him the honours with his arts... don't know where I read the story, but it seems to be going 'round...)

On 23.3.2022 at 8:13 PM, Mark Foote said:

earth as though it were water, floating through the air.  The one that stands out for me is "stroking the sun and moon with the hand".

1 hour ago, awaken said:

當你的注意力是有彈性的情況下，這股電流感走到一個程度，你會打開第三眼，會看見光，各種光的顏色會在你的第三眼出現，這就是光感，這種光通常比較像北極光，會在你眼前流動，有時候光比較強，也會形成一個圓。

 

Sounds poetic (translated in my language). Thank you!

 

Truth is, I am a bit afraid of too much or too strong experiences at the moment. Awakening of the inner body sounds pretty intense. My main ambition here is to relax and get - without sleeping or entering deep sleep - to a state of inside calmness - which hopefully gives me the benefit and relaxation of deep sleep (without actually deep sleeping), not looking for more - at the moment at least -, so maybe this is the wrong exercise for me then. But thank you anyways.

 

1 hour ago, awaken said:

真正的練法，不管是道家還是佛家，都是呼吸下手，但是並非停留在呼吸，可能幾秒鐘之後，就轉移到氣感，幾分鐘之後，就轉移到光感，半小時之後，就轉移到入定，一個多小時後，就出定，幾乎都是這樣的程序。

Could you go into detail with this? 

I thought the whole point was to focus on the body part as a scope / form (but not the physicality), while gently letting the body breathe. 

 

What is the "sense of Qi" 就轉移到氣感，"sense of light" 就轉移到光感，"concentration" 就轉移到入定 and  what do you mean with "manifested / fixed"一就出定? 

 

(That is kind of what I gathered with translation.)

 

So you are saying it goes from "breath" -> "sense of qi" -> "sense of light" -> "concentration" -> "form"? And that depending on how long you 'sit and practice'? 

The goal is somewhat centering, coming to the center, I guess? Or does it go beyond that? 

 

 

What, I believe, helped me when I did this exercise months back, was like Mitchell said, to listen to the body, - to feel awareness like the body part mentioned is a loudspeaker (struggling with English here, maybe the word I mean is amplifier? like the new sonos thing, where they have microphone (in) and loudspeaker (out) and giving out a bigger signal than from the source it comes from). (it works with music relaxation.)And it worked best for me (like losing body contours, but gaining presence (unfitting word?) in surroundings)  when I was mentally (& ideally physically) exhausted, so after mentally stimulating work over long periods of time. Then it worked great. Now, not so much, at the moment I struggle with focus and mind wandering. And when I do this now, it seems like I project/imagine the body part in front of me, but not at the place where it actually is. Which is wrong, I guess. 

 

(I don't do this with any other purpose, than to slow down brain activity and get to a more relaxed physical / balanced state, lol.)

 

 

@Shadow_self, I believe in the exercise Mitchell said _not_ to follow the breath in and out, but to rest awareness on the specific scope, am I wrong here or are you following another lecture? 

 

It's probably good to have anatomical knowledge, - I only know (via surfing & other stuff) that there are muscles where I never knew there could be some... so that's a challenge too, for me, or listen to the diaphragm... where's that supposed to be and what's that like (tough one...)?

 

 

deleted (exploding star)

On 10.8.2019 at 6:12 AM, Nungali said:

Roasted dandelion root, some cardamom pod and a piece of cinnamon bark in the espresso machine .  Yaaa - ummm !

 

Dandichino

 

 

 

 

Its also a diuretic

Looks good! How do you roast the dandelion roots? And/or which brands of dandelion root tea do you recommend? (Never seen that anywhere here...) 

Not that I'm a great believer myself, but the sign tells you rather little in the western astrology system, where you look at the full radix (that means the planets in their position around earth at the moment (time&space) of your birth. That way it's been done for centuries like in south of france, provence especially as far as I know)

 

You can compare the findings to moments in your past, present or future, if you feel like you need some interpretation or orientation, that's called looking at transits (transitioning planets) and in which degree they are to you (e.g. your natal horoscope radix). 

 

The same can be done with partners, that's called synastry and may explain the ebbing and flowing of the intensities or durations of love affairs. 

 

In the natal horoscope there's beside the signs the houses (placidus house system most commonly, - don't use those much myself), which symbolize certain areas in your life. 

 

Then you look at the planets and their relations to each other, so conjunction (balancing each other out), opposition (conflict or struggle), square (learning tasks), trine (helpfully supporting each other). 

 

Then you analyse that and maybe know a bit better who you (predetermined) are and can figure out why you are how you are (in your actions especially) and maybe try to improve that

 

Current events and tasks you can see with the transitioning planets and their relations. 

 

There's much more, like ascendent, medium coeli, descendent, and natal north/south nodes (those are often illustrated as dragons) and those are sort oft like life entry (past life - south node) and life aim (north node). Their it get's tricky and interesting... in my opinion. 

 

There's a great deal of information on the interwebs on horoscope analysis, not all is good

 

And well, it might bear the danger of self fulfilling prophecies, over interpretation but like other tools, like reading the paper, mowing the lawn it can help to deal with what is going on... for some at least. 

 

Not interested in arguing how big blobs of gas might influence what is going on on our insides, just trying to explain it from my view... 

 

helpful tool if you _don't_ want to go into deep is astro-seek.com you'll need the exact hour and minute and birth coordinates/town

 

personally, I couldn't work well with my horoscope until around two years around, - 

now I am sure it is really mine.

 

Edit:

if you get good at it, you learn about strengths and weaknesses in various areas in life. to deal with those and improve, of course is another topic... 

 

the connotation doesn't have to be pro- or recreational, but can be experienced also as a threat (e.g. like what happens with defibrillation). so I suggest changing the name to IEDs - internal energetic/electromagnetic/explosive devices.

 

could anyone confirm or deny that this can be perceived only by people who have had a near death experience?

(body 'chemistry' changes)

 

Quote

This hyperactivation of the sympathetic nervous system seemed to precipitate the production of ammonia, (...) the ammonia was probably a byproduct of glucogneogenesis as the body shifted from normal glucose energy generation (glycolysis) to the emergency mode of the breakdown of protein and fats in the skeletal muscle during fight or flight activation.  (...) Generally a large intravenous dose of ammonia can produce (...) convulsions, (...)

 

In an hypoxia (O2 deprivation) condition the cells are not generating enough ATP to keep up the electrolyte gradient so there is too much sodium in cells/neurons...leading to lack of action potential in the nerves which leads to atrophication of cells. The breakdown products of these dead cells then increases acidosis, hypoxia, electrolyte imbalance, enervation...resulting in fatigue, depression. The reduction in ATP production by the cells due to ammonia is probably interferes with the exchange of nutrients into cells and toxins out of cells.  (...) - J. Dixon

 

 

for those who might read this in the future with raised eyebrows: my best guess - changes within the bodys bio-electricity: as to why those might occur, - the video below might give hints.

 

https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/what-causes-ripples-in-water.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(electrical)

 

 

 

(to the snickerers... hungry ? )

 

 

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

damage the etheric and astral bodies.

 

 

and I wondered back then, when the person, who had those longtime adverse drug effects (which some of you would call a 'shen disturbance' or more) - I was talking about before - was having a lucid moment or if it was just another deviation of the consensual reality claimed, 'energetic' molestation is happening. I had put that in the category of 'weird talk' even though it seemed like a moment of honest experience sharing.

 

 

edit:

another option to look at this

 

On 9.9.2018 at 7:50 PM, Integrated said:

hortcut via drugs probably work, but you are forever dependent on them to get back there.

 

Also as Jung pointed out, what do you do with it when you come back?

His message was simply, "Beware of wisdom that is not earned!"

 

This is expanded upon in this video:

 

 

 

 

in the parallel universe questionmark stopped crying many tears into the pan where she roasted her meanwhile watered steak and suddenly looked confused.

 

questionmark at the fireplace peaked over there and frowned. "somehow I can't manage send and receive or it sometimes just gets misdirected. or... - ? z are you sure you well aimed right at me?" many little blue questionmarks now went up from all of their heads unseen up to the sky.

 

19 minutes ago, Nungali said:

'passed the stick '  each in turn  spoke as to what they thought should be done  ...........

the stick passed many times in silence, as many of them were just following the wu wei and preferred action by nonaction. others held the stick and tried some psychic energy interaction with physical manifestation, but preferred not to talk about it. Some guy who looked like Benjamin Franklin was the first who looked confused when he held the stick: "If it is indeed illegal in the laws of this beautiful country, wherever we may be, all we need is a interim injunction, or whatever you call it here: make use of the power of the state of the people, pay some lousy advocate and we can sit here and chill evermore. No claustrophobical violence needed, if you can play the state on its own terms." He leaned back and grinned, but forgot to turn over the stick until he realized and handed it over. "wait... was that a metaphorical answer on psychic energy interaction, which I didn't get?" Not still having the stick in his hands he was not allowed to talk anymore and confusion settled on his face.

 

While most were still sleeping questionmark timetraveled back and edited something out, that she decided maybe had not been right  or been right to judge, as she was kind of blind on the energetic side (and deaf maybe too...) and then travelled back and left almost no trace behind.

 

"Just here, as myself - whatever that means" she answered to Z. "No disguise to deceive somebody, but wearing masks yes, for protection at least, and sunglasses, but that doesn't count for a disguise."

 

"Which butterfly story do you mean?" she asked blue eyed snake, "that one silent thunder had? or the one of the chinese philosopher who became a butterfly while meditating on it? Chuang Tzu?"

 

But it had become silent around the fireplace and yet again the flames did not flicker anymore, it was more of a silent glow and nobody answered and hundreds of little blue questionmarks went up unseen by anyone up to the sky and dispersed.

 

"If anyone cares for some good coffee... here's some.. and I'd still be curious about the synchronistic mysteries of psychic energy interactions and their physical manifestations?"  Yueya suddenly was awake but seemed rather inward reflective. Mrpasserby started to grin widely, while his eyes got a little bit cross eyed. "Haven't heard enough real ghost stories from ancient China yet (and neither Tibet!) and those are always better told at daylight! Where can you find them? How do you know they are real?"

 

But they all didn't seem to want to start talking.

 

"Fine, I'll begin... someday, I was having some kind of a headache, because there were so many questions unanswered in my mind and they seemed to be so pressing and it was like music or a fever and then it was gone." - Nobody looked impressed (I might have left something out here on purpose. damn). "But then I met an old acquaintance in the coffee shop, - another one who has had a NDE but different (which I didn't knew at the time) ... we talked about the headache questions, and at the end she said... 'today when I went out to go here, I KNEW I would meet somebody here, I didn't know whom, but I knew it."

 

Expectantly she looked at the others.

 

 

 

[please don't quote me with the text here!]

 

Dusk was approaching fast and the group still hadn’t found a campsite. They were unusually slow, as part of the group, who have had some intake at the local Mc Donalds, couldn’t walk as fast as those who had refused to eat there, and they always fell back due to the imbalance in the acid-base equilibrium caused by fatty french fries. To everyones disappointment there had been no funny energetic incidents caused by the chocolate cake in the Happy-Meal, which of course without a doubt would have been maybe not so cool deeply immoral, at least without consent!

 

„Weird! I thought we were near Glastonbury Tor, but here it looks like we’re at the south pole!“ questionmark exclaimed, who looked bewildered at her compass and her compass app on her mobile phone, on which both of them the needles were steadily turning like there was north everywhere.

 

Mr.Passersby looked over her shoulder and said. „Told you so, it’s the earth chakra that’s desorienting you! We are between Stonehenge, Avebury and Woodhenge.“ Questionmark looked at him in doubt. Some dude nobody knew took out a dowsing rod and screened the area and led them to a small clearing in the forest. „Here!“ He said and pointed at the ground. „Shouldn’t take three minutes to get a fire going!“

 

Some chaos magician, who never revealed his true name, took out something that looked like a wand and started mumbling some words. Nothing happened so far. Some DaoBum rapped out a sheet of paper of Nungalis books and started rubbing his hands, there were sparks, but no fire. „Neophytes!“ said Nungali, while he lit a match and manitou grabbed some tinder, together they got the fire going.

At some place steve, apech and zerostao, Bindi and Nungali were still talking about the nature of reality. „It’s a phantasm.“ they seemed to agree. „Vijnana Bhairava Tantra, verse 33 and the following for example, it shows!“ someone said. „See also Bhagavad Gita - Chapter 12 - Verse 3-4“, tossed dwai into the conversation, while he was directing a Qi ball at steve, who therefore couldn’t answer with what he’d wanted to say.

At the other side of the fire place silentthunder, ralis, cleansox and blueeyedsnake were still talking about psychedelic induced meditative states. Close by it smelled like in Amsterdams second hand shops, as the cannabums crew with Draco sat very much relaxed by while saying nothing much of any significance at the moment.

„We can ignore reality but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.“, questionmark mumbled more to herself than to anyone else and wondered if she was the only one being hungry (or if she was actually having just a faint heart), when some faint honking startled her.

A delivery truck had approached the clearing but didn’t move any further. Questionmark put on her big glasses... ‚Hermes delievery’ the label said. „Weird, doesn’t seem like we’re in England anymore.“ She approached the vehicle and the delivery man opened the door. „Sign here!“ he said behind his sunglasses. – „But I didn’t order this!“ she said. „Sign here!“ he repeated. „I did not order this!“ They started a staring contest with glasses and he won it. „Here, this one’s for the group, - and wait...“ he took of his sunglasses for a minute... „questionmark? I got another one for you specifically!“ – „But, - but I didn’t order this!“ – „Well, wicked! Someone did!“ He blinked and got back in his car. „Wait... wait! We have met before, haven’t we? You’re that guy from my dreams, the guy ... -  -  we met, back - - then!“ – „Wicked!“ he said, revealed his sunglasses only to show another blink with his eye and drove away while from the car stereo there was „Strange Powers –The magnetic fields“ to be heard... but then he switched it to Beethovens 7th. Symphony. „Dammit! It’s him, isn’t it?!“

Some in the group must have smelled the wild boar that swam in his marinade with grilled potatoes, wild onions and stewed tomatos in the bigger group package and they carried it towards the fireplace, where some started to eat.

Questionmark opened the smaller package and was startled again: a box of pills – revealed themselves to be potassium iodite. „What that again? Another daobums private joke?!“ She looked up at Steve, old3bob and natural, Nungali and the other ones who liked to make fun of surfers, waves, and whipeouts, but they seemed very innocent. Then she discovered a note below the package from some old friend. „Just exchanged my anti-radiation pills, in case of some nuclear power plant nearby exploding or some other radiation accident, greetings xxx.“ – Questionmark looked up: „When did my life get so weird? Oh no, it probably always was, I just tend to forget about some funny friends I have already.“

 

Mr.passersby tried just another ethereal transmission with some guys she had put on ‚ignore’ and she watched him from a distance. ‚Oh boy, my Faraday shield just came in time.’ She tought to herself. „What about people who give you vertigo just by being close to you? The TCM practioneer I contacted, said it’s a sign of bad compatability, but I SURE don’t believe it?!“ But he didn’t seem to hear her being occupied with sending and receiving transmissions „You wanna try?“ – „No thanks.“ and smiled and walked on.

Infolad1 and ShenGoku held their heads close together, but it was obvious they didn’t wish to have company. So she said with the ladies drinking tea and listened to them talking about recipies and bringing up children and the wonders of the communication between baby and breasts while breastfeeding, in that way that the baby tells the body of the mother without words which nutrients it needs the most at the current time. „Did you know, that often in the first months, the baby cannot differentiate between itself and his mother? It often says: ‚Mom is hungry’ but means ‚I am hungry’. Doesn’t that make you wonder about the futility of seperate consciousness?“ – The Moms looked up distracted and distraught to be disturbed in their happiness of warm cuddled motherhood.

 

‚Dammit!’ questionmark said to herself. ‚I don’t fit anywhere!!’ Somewhat she had the feeling that there was somebody or something missing, like the feeling of rest or that damn Hermes delivery guy she felt she had seen and known before elsewhere... Venus was again cuddling with Lilith in the far away prison in the sky, and Pluto was back in Scorpio where he belonged. „Can’t change the way of the stars either. It is how it is, live with the uncertainty and go to work on monday.“ a known voice said near her, but she didn’t knew if it was directed at her. Someone was playing „The Magic Flute“ with an harmonica, and despite blue eyed snakes best efforts, most of the group evidently got drunk on honeymead while telling ghost stories from ancient China.

 

 

Of course, everyone has to make the decision for themselves.

Not taking that away by stating what I had to watch.

 

In my opinion, the risks far outweighs the possibilities.

It can get as far as categorization 60% severely disabled, getting disability pensions (as not being able to work) and needing to take risperidon to halfway get along with people, which has heavy side effects on perception, energy, state of mind, health and feelings. 

By far this isn't the only case where this got started by psychedelics, it's over 20 in the town with similar diagnosis and trigger.

3 hours ago, ralis said:

gateways to various possibilities

Not all possibilities are ones you'd wish for...

 

Someone I grew up with in the local community experimented with drugs (starting with dope, over to hallucinating mushrooms and more...), and the effects made me - horrified of taking outside drugs (caffeine, wine etc excluded) especially those who are known for giving hallucinations. You never know if you are one out of the percentage of the population were 'something' (in the DNA or synapses) is triggered. It might be interesting if you are bored as fuck, have no will left to live, and have no interest in living in the community, have no responsibilities, no more goals left to follow, no family, no friends, no lover, no cat, no dog, if you wish to stay independent in your decisions with your life - I'd suggest caution.

Most of us live in a closely regulated modern society and not being able to perform will leave you at places where you don't wish to end up.

 

Here, a mild case... (unfortunatly only available in german, but maybe you can watch it with subtitles somewhere.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276617/

 

(--> with the second link you can have automated subtitles via youtube, unfortunatly the translation sucks. but then again - hey - I once watched a whole 3h movie in italian once and did get what it was about...)

 

 

Haven't watched this movie in what must be around 14 years... seeing the fragments of the person (who was such an independent spirit) the person I cared for disappear into something I cannot describe properly... and the effects it had on everyone around. The search for a cure, as the white noise might be, can be life consuming and without result.

 

Have no idea if this might be something anyone would want to call spiritual or this is anything anyone would wish for.

 

I'd believe the body has enough (beneficial) endogenous substances he can give you if you're ready for it. Personally, I wouldn't take that ever.

 

edit: imho - if you are susceptible to this - and you never know for sure - it doesn't necessarily matter under which circumstances or how often you take it. it can rattle your life into pieces in the worst way you can imagine (and more maybe) and take those close to you with you through hell on earth. I suggest caution.

11 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

you're welcome to step back into the circle of light anytime and ask your questions

 

what would still be of quite some interest to me, is the correlations of near-death-experiences, the "white light" and meditative experiences, their conditions, causes and consequences.

it would seem to me, there's some avoidance to share or discuss this in the open,

be nice if I'd be proved wrong.

 

Surprised nobody brought up the 'merovingian's cake'.

 

If you could - for a moment only - look at it without moral judgement,

what is it? -

 

Emitted Qi (from the outside??) that has been transformed (e.g. manipulated) in some kind of way and form?

Which forms of Qi exist?

 

Doesn't have to be connected to O's it appears... (better call them IED's?)

Would be easier to see through if one had the right glasses to put on and off.

 

Stepping out of the woods amidst the heavy rainfall,

taking a seat but keeping my distance:

yes, well, frankly I don't know how I came here or if I even belong here,

 

if I ask questions that are wildly inappropriate for smalltalk with strangers

I want to apologize: the questions I have do not stem from some wildly curious

wish to get to the depths of spirituality or the occult (or the weird), no, (hesitant)

if I ask my questions it is usually not a "how to ..." but a "why that" or "is that"

more deducting than pathfinding - I don't know if I am on the right way for me,

(there's so much else to do) but I don't know how to suppress back the questions to the field,

where they were arising from.

In a way, things seem alright now, won't complain.

If only I knew if and how the experiences have any meaning or influence on my life.

If there was a way to distinguish in this area with not just 'a feeling'.

 

Looking around at the faces. Staring in the fire. Breathing the air that smells between fresh and burnt.

Sipping honey tea. Greeting, wishing well and disappearing into the woods again.

 

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

not something you want to pursue

 

so this is when part of someone leaves the consensual reality of the four dimensions known by our senses, - in your opinion / knowledge / experience ? leaves to, - where, a higher dimension? what is the leaving part exactly?

 

is that 'the white light' you so often hear about in the context of near death experiences?

15 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

astral

So that is the theory. I see.

 

So it's people claiming to " exchange information " on some higher dimension

with or without consent of the other ones consent (seems troublesome).

 

9 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

All that she wants is another OAD

No, not interested.

 

18 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

won’t say anything positive or informative about this, hence immediate in jokes about this (and disgust).

I can see that. Thanks for the warning.

for whatever reason I have no trust in gurus or experts,

I'm far more interested in 'everymans' opinion,

but if he is the only one who experienced this,

it seems negligible to ask further.