Iliketurtles

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On 4/27/2022 at 9:48 PM, Jdb1d said:

What do yall think of David? Also Im interested in John Chang and that type of training would love more info on where to look for that type of stuff.

As a heads up Verdesi charged a bus load of people $10,000.00 USD each to meet John. 

He shows up at John's house unannounced with a busload of people.

Can you imagine how disrespectful to John that would be?

Last I heard he was charging absurd prices for basic qigong classes, with the promise of meeting real masters later on.

Caveat Emptor.

On 5/15/2022 at 12:44 PM, Iskote said:

Endless debates over what is correct and what is not correct. 
Endless debates over what is better and what is worse. 
Every day fare in the kingdom of the ego. 

 

Up and down, east and west, hot and cold. 
Which is correct? Which is not correct? 
Which is better? Which is worse? 
Which all-knowing and all-seeing being can answer these questions with absolute authority? 

 

Who here on this Earth can say what immortality is? 
If anyone can live forever,  they must be very rare. 
No, it's about spiritual immortality, you say? 
What is spirit? 
What is spiritual immortality? 
This person says this. 
That person says that. 
Which all-knowing and all-seeing being can answer these questions with absolute authority? 

 

What use is self-cultivation if it is not practical? 
If what a person practices has value and benefit for them, is it not good? 
If what a person practices improves their health and state of mind, is it not good? 

 

What does it matter what this person or that person says about some particular cultivation method? 
If what a person practices has value and benefit for them, is it not good? 
If what a person practices improves their health and state of mind, is it not good? 

 

I am just a human standing on a vast Earth, surrounded by a vast universe. 
I do not know anything about spiritual embryos and immortality. 
Nebulous clouds which no one can seem to agree upon. 
Beautiful images for the ego to picture and behold. 

 

In this world we must be practical. 
Will it help us through our work day? 
Will it give us better health? 
Will it give us a better state of mind? 
Will it help us to interact with others in a more positive way? 
Will it help ease the aches and pains as we grow older? 

 

What is ultimately real, and what is ultimately not real? 
What is ultimately of value, and what is ultimately not of value? 
I do not know. 
Which all-knowing and all-seeing being can answer these questions with absolute authority? 
 

I think what makes the most sense is to look for practices which have good hard evidence behind them which show they can accomplish more than a placebo effect. 

Otherwise how do we know if we aren't just doing interpretive dance movements, and filling our heads full of weird metaphysics some delusional old guy made up?

On 4/24/2022 at 1:01 PM, Iskote said:

 

In and of itself, videos (and pictures) are not sufficient to be taken as solid evidence that some phenomenon is real. Aside from sleight of hand and similar physical tricks used by stage magicians and in movies, technology in the form of software and apps for editing and modifying videos and photos keeps improving, and is readily available to most anyone these days. We have been beyond the point of being able to trust videos and pictures alone, on their own, for quite a few years now. However, video evidence in conjunction with other forms of evidence which adds further support to what is shown in the video or photo can start to add more weight to what is shown. For example, statements from people who have witnessed it in person can start to add more weight to what is shown in video or in a picture if you have some way to reasonably judge the credibility and reliability of the witness or witnesses. Seeing such things yourself in person, can add even more weight to something being legit, but of course a crafty person can often easily fool many people that something is real when in fact it is a trick.

 

Also, in regards to stuff like 'empty force', some people are very suggestible and therefore it is very hard to rule out suggestibility (subject is unconsciously cooperating with the other person due to being very suggestible). For example, one 'empty force tai chi 'master' I visited in person in the past could make some of his students fall off balance by just waving his hands around, but it had no effect on me when he tried it on me, and I felt nothing at all when he waved his hands at me. I could only conclude that what was going on had more to do with suggestibility of some of his students than anything to do with qi. 

 

As an example of how further evidence on top of video evidence can potentially hold more weight, evidence wise, in the case of the late John Chang of mo pai, several westerners over the years have witnessed in person some of the things he could do and some made videos or wrote about it, and several have stated that they believe it was real. In my own case, I have personally witnessed in person some similar phenomena from a few other different qigong masters over the years, and I have no doubt that what I personally witnessed was legit, (feeling strong qi projected at me from a distance, feeling like I was being electrocuted when touched, and seeing telekinesis performed right in front of me just a few feet away), so my personal opinion is what John Chang showed in video clips is probably legit. That is just my opinion though, in the end. I have personally experienced and seen enough evidence of such things that I have no doubt that such things are legit phenomena, but the legit stuff seems to be fairly rare. Most of what you see on Youtube and similar though is likely fake, as most people posting such videos are either doing it as a joke, or they are seeking attention, or they are trying to make money from it on their monetized Youtube channel, or through some expensive 'online courses' or similar, since such types of videos tend to get large amounts of views and attract a lot of attention. So, within all the muck and mire of fake videos and photos and fake or self-deluded 'masters' out there, I have personally found that there are some real gems, although the gems are quite rare, and it can take a lot of time and effort to find the rare gems amidst all the mountains of muck.:) 

 

As an example of how easy it is to fool people with videos, the following video was made by some digital graphics arts students as a course project, and it fooled millions of viewers when it was first posted before the channel owners updated the video comments to explain that the video was not real, and was made as a digital graphics course project.  This video was made in 2012 by students! The technology for editing videos and photos has improved quite a bit since 2012, so just imagine how easily an experienced digital graphics arts person could fool people these days.  : 

Golden Eagle Snatches Kid - YouTube

 

P.S. How do I make a Youtube video show up here in a video player box, instead of just appearing as a link? 

 

Certainly investigating a matter first hand would be ideal. 

Short of that though, bringing in a team of scientists and medical doctors who do their best to rule out fraud occurring and capturing it all on video is the best we can do. 

Video is important because it takes things a notch above personal testimony, as it allows us direct access to what the people present themselves saw and witnessed. 

The human memory is fallible, and the mind filters what it sees, selectively remembers things, bias is a very real thing. 

Video captures what happened, exactly as it happened. 

Certainly people are manipulated by false evidence and people are even convicted of crimes based on false evidence. 

This is a human limitation. 

It is important that we base our beliefs on the best evidence available to us, and that we constantly re-evaluate our beliefs based on the new evidence. 

We will never get it right 100% of the time, but it is important we do the best we can to be reasonable, and rational.

Yes video can be doctored, but so too can personal testimony be false, and so too can all other forms of evidence be altered and faked.  

If you are trying to make the case that we cannot accept anything anyone says ever, or any evidence which backs up their personal testimony ever then I would think it would be very hard for such a militant skeptic to live a normal life in this society. 

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I am exhausted logging in and seeing either walls of Chinese text or conversations on Mo Pai. It is as though this forum has had all the life sucked out of it.

 

Sadly, the quality of discussion is still higher than reddit, where people are insisting that you can smoke marijuana and then meditate.

Earl I agree with you on the topic of mopai.

Ask the mods to do something about it, maybe if enough people ask they will.

23 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

There are actually a lot of legitimate teachers out there...Some are sitting under your nose

 

The group just have it in their head that : John said x therefore John is correct...anything which deviates from that is a no-go...we will not invest any time in a system until we see some extraordinary evidence of chi emission or whatever. I understand the sentiment...i just dont see it as a runner

 

John did whatever he did...and he gained nothing from it. He lost a lot. Go and take a look at the entitlement of people like Jim and Kostas...Jim publicly badmouthed John over and over after he was told no more...Kostas doing what he did, ended with serious ramifications for John...And he was tormented for the rest of his life by people arriving on his doorstep...prior to this, he was a peaceful healer in Indonesia...

 

Do you think another teacher really wants to open that Pandoras Box? Honestly

 

See it from the other persons perspective...You come to them, with nothing of value to offer, and expect them to show you proof of something that you can gain exponentially from, whereas they stand to lose so much. There is no balance here.

 

There is a reason people are tested for a long time prior to being left into a lineage in Asia...most people are just given an exercise or two...do this, dont ask questions....that's about the start of it...and if you can make it past the next series of stages...You might be in for a bit more...then more "tests" until you slowly make your way in...then you'll get what you want

 

I didn't mention if you don't know where these people are....you often have to know others and/or exchange large sums of money in order to even get a formal introduction to start the above process

 

So it isn't that these things aren't there...they are, and not as rare as one typically thinks...but how many people have the time, money and perseverance to go through that series of hula hoops?

John said worldwide there were 10 others who had gone further than level 4,  if that is accurate I could not say for sure. 

If he was wrong and there are thousands or tens of thousands of people like John I also couldn't say for sure.

I can only speak to my experience, and that is we could have had a mopai retreat center now for all the money we've wasted chasing dead ends.

As to us believing everything John said as gospel,  if we found a new teacher that could offer a demonstration similar to what John did and his teachings contradicted John's we would change systems.

"we will not invest any time in a system until we see some extraordinary evidence of chi "

13 hours ago, zerostao said:

I am surprised no one has presented a meme for it yet.

My recollection is the first mention of it on this forum came from a pro mo pai guy.

John's instructions were to sit on the ground. 

Jim asked if it snowed or rained for many days what could he do to continue training. 

John suggested a grounding wire for such instances.  

The grounding wire does not go inside the body into any orifices.

Some people connect a smooth chain to it and wrap the chain around a cushion and sit on that.

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Given so many avenues have been explored, and you all seem to come up empty handed every time...this should tell you something important

 

Morever, considering there are plenty of people who have teachers, have progressed, have witnessed their abilities. You might get where this is going

 

I told you this months ago, and it was echoed by several posters....the onus will always be on you to prove to a teacher you are worth their time and effort...Arriving on their doorstep with measuring equipment, monetary incentives or demands to "scientifically" verify whether or not they have any extraordinary ability....that's a surefire way to get every door you approach firmly slammed in your face

 

But I dont need to say that, you've already said it for me...

 

Time, patience, effort, trust...that might get your foot over the threshold....No need to take my word for it though...testimony is we agreed, useless in terms of extraordinary claims.

 

However, here im only mentioning how to be respectful to people who can gain nothing at all of use from you, but you could gain a lot from them.  

 

 

 

What does the documentary evidence suggest?? This one isnt supernatural...so go nuts  

 

 

Any teacher worth their salt wouldn't feel the need to prove anything you are right.

 

However...there are plenty of scenarios where these things are shown not as a means of evidence, but as a means of aiding the student.

People have different experiences and learn different lessons from them.

The lessons that I and others that I associate with have learned is there just aren't that many legitimate teachers and systems out there and that the one that we follow is very very very very very very very very very very rare.

That's just my perspective on it but hey I can be wrong I've been wrong before.

Maybe the reality of the situation is as you describe that these Masters see us coming a mile away, and pretend to be charlatans as soon as we get there to run us off that might be what is happening.

Then maybe they can go back to their normal lives and be like phew... we dodged a bullet with those creeps.

Unfortunately because of our bad round of luck investigating things of this nature we're going to stick with what we got until we find evidence of something better and we're not going to keep traveling and spending exuberant amounts of money on people who are rumored to be this and that when it turns out most of the time that they're really not.

I fully understand your argument that teachers aren't required to do anything and that students are.

You also have to understand that we aren't obligated to go invest our time money and energy into teachers who most of the time wind up being more loneman pai type nonsense.

18 hours ago, zerostao said:

Bingo !!

This is the type of post that pushes the envelope towards moderation. 
And I am only one mod, to be sure, yet one that tends to act a little quicker and perhaps “somewhat unpredictable”

 

It is fine to question everything. Being a skeptic for skeptic’s sake is fine.

State that you see no value in a particular system/style/school if you feel you need to comment along those lines.

However, with this post, and from what I’ve seen in limited readings of your posts from other threads; you have crossed a line or two or more and are in violation of the rules IMO

also IMO you are in violation of the spirit  of this forums rules. And that from my perspective is a more serious matter.

You will be sanctioned, handed restrictions, which I will post a bit later.  I need a little time to think it over, at least three minutes or so.

perhaps another mod will speak on this, perhaps not.

I will detail the issues that concern me on the subsequent post of mine.

 

I try and keep it friendly, so a bit of advice. And I will share that I myself have been sanctioned in the past due to a post that I made on. Mo pai thread a few years back. 
My free advice is try to avoid any knee jerk reaction. There is no need for you to try and defend your post. Stay relaxed and absorb the sanction. Learn from it. Adjust in a positive fashion after reading my next post on this. 

Pretty please could you address the constant accusations of sticking wires into our anuses I think that's probably not appropriate and as far as I'm concerned that's definitely trolling. If you guys could address that, it would be very much appreciated.

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Jiang’s students are more open that you think and actually give a yes or no answer about if they can fa qi or burn things with their hands. Funny how that works, it’s as if they actually learned how to do what Jiang can do, not just shove copper wire up bum or sit in a tent with a hole cut out for your arse to touch the soil.

 

I'm very glad that you've had a different experience than we have.

I know that other people that I associate with have offered one of his students who posted a YouTube video demonstrating some abilities they offered him quite a substantial amount of money just to do a demonstration behind closed doors with no cameras rolling and no travel required and they were told no.

So maybe he is legit and maybe he has his reasons for refusing such a demonstration but it looks really bad to me and it looks really bad to the rest of the people that I associate with.

So best of luck with all that.

One other thing nobody that I know of who practices mopai puts wires in there orifices.

As to why we have to sit on the ground that was literally what John taught as a requirement I don't know what more to tell you on that.

That's one of many avenues that have already been explored.  

I and others I know have spent more money than you would believe possible travelling and seeking out teachers only to be left with nothing to show for it.  

If you want to pursue that you are free to do so.

Just now, Shadow_self said:

 

No it isnt the other option...and you yourself are the one who brought up demonstrations need I remind you (Again)

 

In respect to extraordinary claims

 

A person can lie...it is useless

 

A video can be manipulated...it is equally useless

 

Unless you can find something to overcome the weaknesses of these things...they are of no use in the case of extraordinary claims...because neither can produce extraordinary evidence

 

 

I think what you are driving at is ultimately there is no way to prove anything, because all evidence can be fabricated. 

In such an imperfect situation it makes sense to me to do the best you can, with the best evidence you have.

Just now, Shadow_self said:

 

No, you misrepresent the situation as a false polarity...as if an individual has no option to see/experience such things themselves..

 

You are doing so to exclude this option, and it is creating a strawman as it attempts to place my position as testimony is acceptable (you even created a thread. You are presenting the only alternative as testimony, which is also a false dichotomy...when that is not the case....it never was...You are the one who mentioned giving demonstrations to convince skeptics need I remind you?

 

Personal direct experience is the ONLY medium that will suffice...no other option is acceptable in the face of extraordinary claims

 

But you have given two redundant options in place of it. Here is why they are redundant

 

A person can lie about their experience....they could also be telling the truth...the only way to know is to go and experience oneself

A person can manipulate a video...it may also be accurate....the only way to know is to go and seek out the experience yourself

 

Both are easily misrepresented...and there is an endless amount of limitations...there is none better than the other in the case of extraordinary claims.

 

So there are people who see "UFOs" all the time

 

There are people who regularly interact with teachers who can light them up with Qi

 

There is no need for video or testimony because there is a very real option to seek these things out and inspect for oneself...anything else is faith...nothing more

 

The only thing we agree on is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...and as such neither video or testimony will suffice.

 

Examples of court cases and such dont hold up...because they are not extraordinary...those things are routine happenings

Going and seeing for yourself isn't always an option. 

John is dead, Jiang is dead,  Jiang's students refuse controlled private demonstrations,  so...

Sometimes you have to rely on the best evidence available to you.

The people I know only give demonstrations to skeptics if they think doing so might result in a serious seeker pursuing the practice, otherwise it is a waste of time, money and energy.

9 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Blah blah blah let’s get back to the main topic of the thread. Constantly having the same argument about WESTERN Mo Pai is making us all age faster.

 

Can anyone recommend a meditation to regain these wasted hours back?

There is no such thing. 

There is only what John actually taught, and teachings that diverge from that. 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I just wanted to add, for anyone that isnt aware...this strawman argument of "personal testimony" seems to keep coming up. I dont think anyone made the case for "testimony" but this is a classical logical fallacy. Below is a graphic that explains it

 

It isn't a straw-man. 

Saying video is a poor form of evidence,  in comparison to what exactly?

Personal testimony is the other option here, and it's a far worse alternative. 

9 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

@Iliketurtles your post will be answered here...there's no point in having this all over the forum. One thread is fine

 

Video is video. All video is open to the same manipulation, irrelevant of who was there or what happened. There is no confusion there.

 

What I stated earlier was that anyone who believes solely because a few scientists or doctors are present, that this automatically validates a video...is either overly trusting or perhaps easily swayed/suggestible (I originally used the term gullible, but see how that could be misinterpreted, so retract it in favour of the these terms). I used the example of "scientism" to illustrate this point, as this is usually the best example of this.

 

Anyway, in all of those videos, there is no evidence those individuals did their best to rule out fraud. There is evidence they did something...but that something is a country mile from "best practice"...in terms of that standard...they barely got off the mark...

 

This is where the matter of competency comes into play.

 

[Sidenote: There was another part of the forum where I was asked to outline my credentials...I made it very clear it was not required...and to judge me not based on the amount of letters after my name (though I have a few), but my ability to critique what I seen in the science presented]

 

A title does not equate to competency, because as we have already established...titles are so often gained through dishonest means...therefore it stands to reason logically, that a lot (not all, certainly) of the people with such titles actually gained them through a lack of competence.  (If someone wanted to create a thread on that, I could dive pretty deep on that topic if they wish)

 

Moral of the story...competence is key and title ≠ competence

 

This might be a difficult truth to swallow for some, but make no mistake...it absolutely is the truth

 

I say this based on 2 facts

 

#1 The state of science as a whole, as outlined by myself in terms of the exponential level of dishonesty and deceit that permeates almost every aspect of it

#2 The very true statement that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

 

#1 Is an indisputable fact...the evidence is absolutely overwhelming

#2 You already admitted, video evidence is not extraordinary evidence...therefore it stands to reason it cannot be used to verify extraordinary claims

 

@Pak_Satrio made the very good point, that it may provoke one to go in search of evidence for themselves...but that it would not be convincing. I think that's a fair point, and I see the merit in his words

 

With that out of the way...I need to address your very false claim that the question is loaded...it is not

 

The question is very clear, we  are trying to ascertain whether or not video is acceptable form of evidence in terms of supernatural/paranormal events. As we are amongst a forum of cultivators and those in pursuit of spiritual truth, I had to use the word routinely, as for some of us, what is considered paranormal has become normal. 

 

The vast majority of people seem to think no it isn't. There is only one person who believes that it does. 

 

Therefore, while you might think a video is a convincing piece of evidence in this case ( and that's fine, you're free to hold your own beliefs, whatever they might be) …most people don't seem to share that sentiment.

 

This small piece of empirical data, should however, give you a reason to pause, and consider why you are making the argument for people to place faith in a video in this instance, when they clearly don't see it as sufficient?

I asked a question earlier, if you saw UFOs/UAPs on a regular basis, how would you document it?   

How could you produce the highest quality evidence to substantiate your personal testimony?

I would assume you'd bring in a team of professionals, and record it all on video. 

I asked if not that then what would be a better solution?

And we agreed that there wasn't a better solution. 

The fact that video can be edited, and faked is a criticism of all forms of evidence it isn't specific to video. 

Video is superior to personal testimony because people lie, the human mind filters and is biased, and human memory is fallible. 

Video is definitely an upgrade to testimony. 

It seems like we agree on this based on your comments. 

This is the best we can do.

4 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I think that @Nungali and I both had better alternatives...Have them go see for themselves

 

The point is you cannot trust documentation...it is that simple...Irrelevant of the medium

 

Therefore, from a logical perspective the only rational choice is to experience the phenomena in question for oneself..be it alone, or in the presence of the person making the claim ( as in the case of UFO watch parties)

 

This way there is no faith required..at all.

 

What you suggested not only requires faith...but puts it in the hands of people who  reside in a field which is known to have an exponentially high percentage of liars and frauds...and that is a really big problem now.

 

Especially when you have no reliable gauge of competence. It is, how would one say, not too unlike placing your faith in a religion...

That may not be an option.  

In the case of John he's passed now.

If you can't trust any evidence what-so-ever, you'll be hard pressed to exist in our world.

We just established there are no better alternatives. 

That is why it is so important to have professionals present to make a best case effort to rule out fraud. 

The video is only important because it is superior to their personal testimony of what occurred. 

Just now, Shadao said:

What you mean with "you create better evidence personally"?

 

I'm assuming you mean myself making evidence to show (for)something?...

Pretend you know where to find some paranormal phenomenon, and your job is to document it as best as you possibly can. 

I would grab a team of professionals, have them make a best case effort to rule out fraud, and record the whole thing on video. 

I don't know of better options.

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The answer I gave was for a good reason. I dont think there is "better" in this case

 

You tell someone you seen something  " Youre a liar"

You show them a video of something " Thats fake"

 

In both scenarios there is no proof of anything, and you  cant win

 

Do you believe Bob Lazar from example?

 

 

 

Reasons like this are why I wouldn't use a video.

 

If you were clever enough, you would tell them to go to the location at the time said things appear, and make their own judgement...that's honestly what I would do.

 

Pretty sure thats what Bob Lazar did as well

 

 

"I dont think there is "better" in this case"

I agree with you 1000%. 

We can only provide the best evidence we have and that's it. 

At the moment until AI takes over and can record all angles of all interactions in minute detail and settle arguments and debates documenting things on video with professionals present to make a best case effort is the best we can do.

23 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

It comes down to a matter of confounders and controls

 

In none of the videos above, do I see stringent, sufficient controls being applied without any editing whatsoever...This in and of itself creates the possibility of so many confounders, its  somewhat impossible to trust it.

 

So....by not being able to reduce those....I think any given individual would be perfectly justified in not accepting what they see

As to my question earlier, how if you were required to do so by law, how would you provide better evidence of UFO/UAPs that you were witnessing on a regular basis?

Me personally I guess I would get a team of astronomers and professionals to come check it out and record everything on video. 

I mean I can't think of anything more I possibly could do to document it.

Do you have better ideas?

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

It comes down to a matter of confounders and controls

 

In none of the videos above, do I see stringent, sufficient controls being applied without any editing whatsoever...This in and of itself creates the possibility of so many confounders, its  somewhat impossible to trust it.

 

So....by not being able to reduce those....I think any given individual would be perfectly justified in not accepting what they see

You can always argue video has been edited or tampered with.  

It's still the best we can do.

I think there is some disconnect here. 

I am not saying that the best we can do is good. 

I am simply saying it is the best we can do. 

Does that make sense?

You cannot beam your memories and experiences to other people, they are valid only for you.

If the goal here is to make evidence that can be widely distributed then video is the only option available besides written personal testimony. 

The human mind filters what sees, and distorts memories of events with biases, human memory is falliable and apt to error.  

Video helps record what happened as it happened, without bias. 

This is why police wear body cams to protect themselves, why banks and businesses use cameras, and why people buy dashcams.