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So to get things straight, you burned your bridges with both rudi and GMP And you're still trying to make claims against rudi on behalf of GMP? This is why you generally study ethics and conduct alongside your foundations training Its not even an esoteric issue this is just not how you treat people

I've never learned from rudi and don't know too much about gengmenpai but this reminds me of a lot of other situations that resulted in lineages being completely closed to the west There's a stereotype out there, all westerners will take your sacred techniques and sell them as well as the masters personal info to the highest bidder without any regard for the lineage The behavior from neigongdisciple is not helping to beat the allegations lol

Yes that's a whole can of worms so to speak haha The energetic bodies in Vajrayana are (generally) not the same as the yang immortal body of neidan, the rainbow body would be the closest comparison as its cultivated via reverting the consciousness back to origin but that's a very specific thing that uses an entirely different cultivation method and usually means that the physical form disappears and that life on earth has concluded I know that several neidan lineages deal with other energetic bodies prior to the ultimate yang immortal body but I won't talk too much about that as I haven't received direct transmission on the topic In Vajrayana I think depending on the lineage you are often instructed to assume the form of the deity 24/7 and so the merging of consciousness happens on varying levels throughout your life as perceptions are purified, there are stories of people able to physically become the deity after sustained practice of this Ultimately we only have one human experience of course and so someone that has achieved each energetic body according to the tradition could tell whether they're the same or not, I would personally say that they're different as the cultivation methods and reported effects are different To put on my universalism cap for a moment, religious daoism which is incorporated in varying degrees in neidan lineages deals strongly with deity yoga similarly to vajrayana, in religious daoism deity yoga is said to be a way to access ling qi or "brahma qi" as one aims to assume the authority and energy of heaven I'd say the siddhis from yidam practice are likely similar to the religious daoism line of development even if done for different purposes South east asian esoteric buddhism is super interesting, i've found some really cool stuff from Vietnam that incorporates neidan and tantric buddhism from the shingon line into one lineage Almost impossible to find good info from there without taking a trip and knowing the right people though haha Nan huai-chin has some interesting writings about the similarities between neidan and vajrayana as he says that he's studied both (mostly untranslated in chinese however) His view from what i've seen is also that they are two separate processes that can ultimately compliment each other

Heres my opinion in a bit more detail now that i have some time to do a proper writeup To enter into a productive discussion I think that we need to define terms, what is the realization thats being discussed for each tradition? The goal of neidan (well not really because there are stages beyond it but you know what i mean) is the formation of a spiritual immortal body which is not possible in any buddhist philosophy, as even gods are subject to reincarnation Even within each tradition of buddhism realization is different, is bodhicitta the union of compassion and emptiness or the bliss coming from the winds abiding in the central channel leading to that union of compassion and emptiness? See how its "the same" but the first isnt the same as the second in practical terms? There's alot of stuff like that In vajrayana there are thousands of methods which are taught according to individual capacity, even advanced dzogchen contains physical asanas and energetic anatomy, spontaneous liberation is very hotly debated In my opinion (and I acknowledge this isnt a mainstream opinion) you have to think of it like this Teaching people to have a peaceful and compassionate mind is a wonderful practice, and saying that it can lead to buddhahood in one life quells the western mindset of seeking out the highest teachings In buddhist cosmology this will also lead to deeper and deeper encounters with the dharma in future incarnations The advanced practices of vajrayana that you would be taught on an extended retreat look very similar to neidan, physical yogas, deity yoga using the chakras and three channels, magical ritual and incantations, internal alchemic change of the body, and accessing the pure lights of consciousness leading to shamanic experiences This is also taught at every level of the vajrayana path (ngondro is an introduction into everything listed above) in varying degrees So in summary, there are buddhist views that are very close to neidan and those that are completely different, buddhism is so large that you can honestly find whatever views you want in there Certain neidan lineages I would say arguably compose their own branch of esoteric buddhism lol

This is an interesting discussion because in the exoteric sense karma makes almost zero sense, similar to the man in the mask described above does someone with dementia accrue negative karma from their violent outbursts? Theres a few factors like guilt (even if subconscious) which create suffering that leads to the creation of hells within the consciousness, id say if the man felt guilty then yes he would in effect accrue negative karma unfortunately as no system of karma assumes an intelligence behind karma but more of a cause and effect If the man could no longer feel remorse then id say no negative karma would be accrued as no aspect of consciousness would be retained, similarly if the man was able to accept that he was powerless in the situation through being enlightened then there would be no negative karma This might be different in hindu systems but im fairly certain in buddhism it would work like that In my opinion karma shouldnt be taken super literally, its useful as a roadmap for practicing moral conduct to develop the mind for meditation, its looking at the finger instead of the moon to get into semantics but is unfortunately really common

Have you seen a psychologist? I dont say that to lessen how you feel but even serious praciticioners will usually clear problems with psychologists if they're long running and i see you've been experiencing this for multiple years I see an early post from you saying this happened around 2003? Tell them your symptoms on the physical level (anhedonia, no sex drive) and see what they say, if it doesn't help you then you should explore further spiritual remedies Theres alot of shame around masturbation especially as it relates to taoism, but loss of jing is normal and unless you were doing intense neidan before theres no way you could have hurt yourself energetically in the way that you described My ancient secret remedy to you would be to see a psychologist, eat well and exercise, detox from porn and get your kidneys in order (in the tcm sense not your literal kidneys) If / when the above advice gets you back to the baseline of normal, then you can jump back into energetic work / alternative medicine

Without getting too much into it (as its a bit taboo to talk about the later stuff) there are very tangible results from successful neidan practice If you find a proper teacher you should develop the capabilty to feel the "real" lower dantien 24/7 fairly quickly, once you're past that point you'll always know that what you're doing is real

Theres nothing in the tibetan buddhist canon mentioning mixing any other methods and whether to work with them or not so its an opinion that varies with every teacher Many lamas practice qi gong in fact, i'm guessing because its gentler than tsa lung for those of advanced age Ming methods do absolutely exist in vajrayana but they aren't very commonly taught unless you know what you're looking for, generally the goal is to get students out of the burning building of samsara first and ask questions later, and sadly there just aren't many that make it past the initial important step to see what else there is The amritasiddhi still has a lineage of transmission in vajrayana in fact, which is very close to neidan Its just not a transmission you would really see unless you sought out a lama that could give it to you and requested it Similarly, a gnostic christian wouldn't know what you meant by ming, but you might be interested to know that the christian monks of mount athos are where the english term "navel gazing" comes from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is a teacher in the bon tradition, it shares quite a bit of similarities with vajrayana but draws more from the traditional tibetan religion Bon ranges all the way from slightly domesticated shamans to full on monastic buddhism lol, theres quite a bit of variety

Primordial purity? Or the golden elixir If its the latter no thats neidan only because it ascribes to a world view that vajrayana does not The first one tons but you should get transmission to read anuttara yoga tantra (im assuming you're familiar with vajrayana as you posted the dzogchen vid)

22 pages in finally a good neidan related topic Buddhism (and especially mahayana - vajrayana) shares quite a bit of similarity with original daoism but neidan is a different method with different goals that happens to overlap in a few places (I am both a practicioner of vajrayana and neidan) Dzogchen is strangely used as a xing method by a few different lineages though, with exact descriptions of the crystal kati channel The golden elixir is your true nature yes but its simultaneously a real energetic - physical substance with specific instructions, not something to be found pre-existing as in vajrayana (primordial purity)

Who knows, half the lineages say the original method was lost except for their patriarch who rediscovered it, the other half say they teach the original method still and the others are mistaken Its an interesting topic though, would be good discussion for the neidan subforum

Neidan definitions often don't allign with TCM definitions, ive been told that by a few teachers in the past explicitly Nothing wrong with not believing in how those terms are used in neidan, just letting you know its apples and oranges lol

From a non energetic pov you can think of the dangers of neidan as stimulating the nervous system in ways that are harmful, getting stuck in psychological traps that keep you from following nature, or worsening of ego leading to mania When you add in post natal and pre natal energy, you can see how incorrect practice can really do a number on someone That being said though most people don't practice deeply enough for it to be dangerous at all i'd think, i found a forum one time of people practicing the "nen" system from the anime hunter x hunter, no symptoms of qi deviation there haha

I think that sounds good, many of the posts in daoist discussion seem neidan adjacent so i'd be interested to hear more about what specifically goes in which place Also something that might help there is, (as i'm guessing its supposed to attract more high quality info and discussion), an informal rule of the OP stating which tradition they're talking about before bringing up the topic Like Topic: Pore breathing visualization Dragons gate lineage Does anyone have some tips for the visualization when doing WLPs pore breathing exercise vs the current Topic: Pore breathing anyone know how to pore breath bro *15 page flame war with 5 different schools* Something to consider is that very specific topics often only have a few people that can answer the question, and so there tends to be a lot of threads that have no replies, a good example is dharmawheel where theres a ton of empty threads because people are asking things that only a few thousand people on earth can answer Maybe something like, general open discussions of neidan can still go in Daoist Discussion and then the neidan subforum can be used for people who only want that specialized info and are fine with waiting for someone who can genuinely discuss the topic?

A bit off topic but the ccp is actually pretty supportive of taoism in the modern day, theres plenty of other things wrong there like their treatment of vajrayana and tibetans in general but lets not accuse members of being government agents hahaha

@ChiDragon Have you read 炁体源流 by 张至顺? Its a modern collection of classic neidan materials with commentary by a taoist hermit Back to the original topic its very close to the neidan that I practice, good source to learn about quanzhen imo Also, theres quite a bit of variation in neidan in the other lineages but within a given lineage things are (mostly) consistent from what ive seen There's some really out there stuff from Wang Wengqing for example

(I say this not to argue for the sake of it but to hopefully help you out as you seem to be a bit confused) The question is, which logic must reality be bound by? Laozi and daoism as a whole follows the logic of the trees and birds The idea is that logic doesn't bind anything, if you realize an inconsistency, then its the logic that you've created which is incorrect, the birds and trees will not stop existing Logic in daoism doesn't bind reality, but nature binds logic Everything created naturally brings its opposite into existence, you can say the creator is dao, dao must then contain dao and not dao or it isn't the one you claim is the prime creator Daoist metaphysics are not binary, they are non-dual and are fundamentally incompatible with the philosophy you describe That isn't to say you can't learn something or use it to expand your horizons, but you will always disagree with it fundamentally unless the presumption of a binary reality is abandoned These aren't errors or things that laozi or other eastern philosophers weren't exposed to, these philosophers explicitly reject scientific rationalism

Hi! The ttc is super hard to translate because of all of the metaphorical language, in this particular case you're running into a common beginners trap But yes absolutely, if you can't read ancient Chinese you are reading something that is fundamentally altered you are correct about that You should learn how people that have studied the text in the native language understand it, if you don't learn how to read it that way yourself You have to keep in mind that you cant systemize taoism the same way western philosophies are systemized and follow it as a logic flow chart (he says it cant be described but then he describes it) Whatever pre-existing framework you have in mind, to really understand the ttc you have to completely tear that down It doesn't fit into anything else, it doesn't even really fit into itself Laozi says that the tao cannot be attached to or described as any single thing because the tao is both thing and no thing When you use a noun in any language, you pin it down as thing and he is explicitly telling you about something that is thing and no thing, he is however conveying a practicable and and at least partially comprehensible concept even if it also means the opposite of that concept, otherwise he just wouldn't have written the book He later describes non-dual activity and following innate nature as a suggestion to return to the course of tao, it isn't contradictory to say that there are temporary prescriptions to return to the original course of nature as long as those prescriptions are eventually discarded (If you're worried about Thus, sages rule by emptying people's hearts (keep them ignorant), filling their bellies, weakening their ambitions, and strengthening their bones. Let people ignorant and lack desire, It's more about saying that a ruler should take care of the needs of its citizens and encourage them to lead humble and peaceful lives without feeling the need to suffer and exploit their fellow humans It isn't talking about the modern concept of the government intentionally dumbing its citizens down to make them easier to control Ancient chinese is very blunt, gotta keep that in mind) This is part of why taoist literature is so tricky haha As a side note, careful with the AI usage in philosophy. It's excellent for resource gathering but if you express an idea to it it'll always agree with you and find a reason why you're correct to keep you using it instead of being a steady hand ready to correct you which is what people really need I say that as someone who uses AI quite frequently as a tool

Totally get what you mean, i struggled a lot with that as well, this is the advice that I wish i'd heard back then, I hope it helps you Taming the mind is fickle and not always as it seems You should self evaluate and find if you've really found that perfect middle between nothing and not-no-thing where you can be fully present and that you haven't fallen into clinging to emptiness which causes disassociation and a sense of endless longing Remember also, samadhi is just one part of the eightfold path (I assume you come from a buddhist background given the wording) If you've reached the end of where samadhi will take you that's excellent, there's always something else to work on Perhaps you could take the despair you feel and transform it using metta, feel pity for all sentient being stuck in the cycle of craving and transform that into pure compassion

Or more accurately, Tao made up the existence of Laotze

yeah 100% agree that's why its always better to learn from a living lineage with someone that can accurately translate these concepts into a format that you can understand first hand i feel like alot of this thread is people who mostly have the same understanding talking around each other haha

There are certain misunderstandings of qi in the west (misunderstanding is the specialty of the west in fact) and pre 1900s translations are laughable with the qi = just energy or breath and they'll usually have tao as god or something lol, the baopuzi english translation is absolutely unreadable for example with classic lines such as "God is round, but there has been no compass." In proper modern translations though its left as qi for that reason, because people who read neidan texts often have learnt from teachers in china and have the same understanding of qi as others in their lineage I do absolutely agree that the misunderstanding exists, qi isn't just energy but it has an energetic component in many native chinese traditions especially neidan

I think what's being referred to is that in certain daoist traditions the root of the energetic treasures is said to be from the parents rather than anything christian for example from 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 "Perfected Chongyang also commented, “Nothing is ever separated from yin and yang; what lives must borrow vital essence from the father and blood from the mother. These two substances are the root of the body. All of the people of today who practice cultivation do not take care of their father’s essence and their mother’s blood" (translated by komjathy)

Ah i think I see the mismatch, chidragon have you experienced and do you believe in energetic phenomena? Its pretty much the foundation of neidan, the belief through experience that there are three energetic treasures in the human body being jing, qi, and shen Every neidan classic details the methods of working with and transforming these three non-physical substances and the non-physical effects that begin to be perceived that indicate correct practice I think most qigong can be "clinical" as in completely attributed to the physical body like you describe, but neidan specifically requires the philosophical backing of an energetic system, otherwise you wouldn't have anything to transform What you're talking about is definitely interesting, it just isn't neidan as is practiced by people from the lineages here such as dragons gate, wuliupai, or the greater quanzhen tradition all of which are primary sources

I think you have a good idea but might be a bit confused on how to accomplish it, i started out with something similar so i can give some advice Theres a few different versions of the spiritual philosophers stone even in the west for example Renaissance christian alchemist working with kaballah mistranslations vs arabic golden era alchemist thatd take influence from sufism and zoroastrianism which have energetic components vs the original greek alchemy which worked with long lost egyptian spirituality mixed with platonic philosophy So they have different goals and different ways to achieve the goal, and then when you get further out than the middle east the more different those mystical traditions become its like saying that you want to unify metallurgy and violin playing, different people, different processes, different goals now sticking to the basics will significantly boost your magickal practice which seems to be your main thing so id suggest doing that and maybe an internal martial art like bagua or tai chi, then when magick takes you as far as it can seek out neidan figuring out the core of spirituality is a very human quest that a lot of people share and there is definitely overlap (we only have one body and one mind) you just need to know so much not public info the further east you go that its not feasible while western magick holds your interest, you'd have to empty your cup so to speak